Horus Heresy: Living Primarchs

[Prot]

This is something I've thought about a lot over reading the last 4,384 HH novels.... and I've often thought this prior to the HH series:

 

What if they change the outcome of some of the Primarchs during the series? We've already seen changes, some subtle, some not to subtle.

 

I always thought, even 15+ years ago it was kind of sad... kind of hallow and maybe a missed opportunity to not have some Primarchs on both sides of the war more involved/alive/partaking in the war.

 

I would love to see this come to fruition. It's viable, plausible, and doesn't have to upset the balance of the universe. We know some Primarchs do indeed live, and some are in kind of a grey area. 

 

Which Primarchs would you like to see post Heresy? (From a fan point of view, as well as logically speaking within the context of the war. )

 

This is just me, and I'm sure people will think it's stupid, but I think it's a big opportunity to slightly change things, for the better, without -really- changing things... if you know what I mean. (I think this is the thin ice they've treaded so far with some of the different 'endings' for certain key players in the HH series)

 

What do you think? Am I dreaming or could we see this happen?

[Volt]

Eh, it'd mess with the story too much. Characters like Abaddon, Azrael, Calgar, etc would be completely irrelevent if there were Primarchs running around, especially Abaddon. Abaddon has absolutely zero right to even be relevent and would be but an ant if Magnus, Lorgar, Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, or Perturabo were taking to the field personally to marshall the crusades against the Imperium instead of participating in the Great Game/busy being banished. The only Primarch I could see returning without changing a lot is Khan or Vulkan, especially Vulkan, as Kyme could easily set up the next Salamander trilogy to bring him back and establish him as leader of the Salamanders again.

[Wade Garrett]

Angron, Mortarion, and Magnus have all taken the field in M41 without diminishing Abaddon's luster.

[Volt]

Angron, Mortarion, and Magnus have all taken the field in M41 without diminishing Abaddon's luster.

Angron led a tiny Khorne crusade and keeps getting his gak kicked in by the Imperium. Mortarion got banished by Draigo after doing feth-all. And Magnus is moping on the Planet of the Sorcerers after seeing some action early after the Horus Heresy to avenge his Legion. They aren't doing anything and are being purposely being pushed out of the way by authors to ensure they don't detract from other characters. If Magnus stopped moping around and rallied everyone, there would be no need for Abaddon. He's a skiled astartes in terminator armor empowered by all four chaos gods, but he isn't even in the same ballpark as the Daemon Primarchs. Lorgar, Angron, Magnus, Mortarion, Fulgrim, and Perturabo could all easily replace him, and actually be hilariously more effective in combat, Magnus especially.

[Loesh]

Eh, it'd mess with the story too much. Characters like Abaddon, Azrael, Calgar, etc would be completely irrelevent if there were Primarchs running around, especially Abaddon. Abaddon has absolutely zero right to even be relevent and would be but an ant if Magnus, Lorgar, Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, or Perturabo were taking to the field personally to marshall the crusades against the Imperium instead of participating in the Great Game/busy being banished. The only Primarch I could see returning without changing a lot is Khan or Vulkan, especially Vulkan, as Kyme could easily set up the next Salamander trilogy to bring him back and establish him as leader of the Salamanders again.

 

I'm pretty sure all the Daemon Primarch's are actually working under Abaddon, which I tend to take a somewhat neutral stance towards. I understand why it is, I don't think it's the ideal way to handle things, but what can you do?

 

At the very least, it'd bring a small smile to my face to see Fulgrim on the field again, while hacking his way through the armies of man with the legions of the apocalypse at his back.

[DarKnight]

This would matter more to the Loyalist Legions/chapters than to the traitors in the eye in my opinion. And each side both had Primarchs live until they either died or ascended to Daemon Primarch status. Do you mean like live and interact regularly into 40K?

[Wade Garrett]

Given that Magnus's post Heresy "leading" has consisted of him marching a significant chunk of his Legion to their defeat at the hands of a single Great Company and having a Blood Claw banish him back to the Warp, I think the new Warmaster isn't exactly quaking in his boots.

[SteelPaladin]

 

Eh, it'd mess with the story too much. Characters like Abaddon, Azrael, Calgar, etc would be completely irrelevent if there were Primarchs running around, especially Abaddon. Abaddon has absolutely zero right to even be relevent and would be but an ant if Magnus, Lorgar, Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, or Perturabo were taking to the field personally to marshall the crusades against the Imperium instead of participating in the Great Game/busy being banished. The only Primarch I could see returning without changing a lot is Khan or Vulkan, especially Vulkan, as Kyme could easily set up the next Salamander trilogy to bring him back and establish him as leader of the Salamanders again.

 

I'm pretty sure all the Daemon Primarch's are actually working under Abaddon, which I tend to take a somewhat neutral stance towards. I understand why it is, I don't think it's the ideal way to handle things, but what can you do?

 

At the very least, it'd bring a small smile to my face to see Fulgrim on the field again, while hacking his way through the armies of man with the legions of the apocalypse at his back.

 

Yea, I wouldn't say they are working "under" Abbadon exactly. They are almost entire above mortal concerns. They may work with Abbadon every now and then, but they are most certainly not subservient to him. 

[Loesh]

 

Yea, I wouldn't say they are working "under" Abbadon exactly. They are almost entire above mortal concerns. They may work with Abbadon every now and then, but they are most certainly not subservient to him. 

 

 

 

Well, Magnus at the very least has kneeled and while the relationship between Abaddon and the Primarch's probably is a continuum between mentor, adversary, and subservient over the last 10,000 years...it seems to be under him when the 13th breaks out.

 

Again, not how I think they should do it, but that's what it seems like.

[shandwen]

For loyalists the primarchs would find it difficult to re-appear without the eclesiarchy (I stink at speeling) making them demi-gods. If Dorn is actually hidden in the emperor's bodygaurd (as a few have claimed) he could step out and take a leading role, but it wouldnt be worth it. If the Salamander's primarch showed up the imperium would turn a whole lot less grim-dark, so that couldn't happen. Others like Corax or Khan would create a very interesting issue, as they seem to shun the strategic planning and bureaucratic role required. Now the Lion would relish the chance to be the big guy on top, but the entire imperium would descend into acting like the dark angels or inquisition (secrets:secrets everywhere). Girlyman would also make the imperium far less grimdark, and would have to be killed of quickly as draigo wouldnt be mary-sue enough to stand working with the Codex himself.

[Volt]

 

Eh, it'd mess with the story too much. Characters like Abaddon, Azrael, Calgar, etc would be completely irrelevent if there were Primarchs running around, especially Abaddon. Abaddon has absolutely zero right to even be relevent and would be but an ant if Magnus, Lorgar, Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, or Perturabo were taking to the field personally to marshall the crusades against the Imperium instead of participating in the Great Game/busy being banished. The only Primarch I could see returning without changing a lot is Khan or Vulkan, especially Vulkan, as Kyme could easily set up the next Salamander trilogy to bring him back and establish him as leader of the Salamanders again.

 

I'm pretty sure all the Daemon Primarch's are actually working under Abaddon, which I tend to take a somewhat neutral stance towards. I understand why it is, I don't think it's the ideal way to handle things, but what can you do?

 

At the very least, it'd bring a small smile to my face to see Fulgrim on the field again, while hacking his way through the armies of man with the legions of the apocalypse at his back.

 

Abaddon should by no means ever be in command of anything if there's a Primarch active on the field that can replace him. Abaddon's tactics always boil down to zerg rushing and using his forces as shields to protect him should things ever sour- and he's just a bug compared to Magnus especially.

[Loesh]

 

 

Abaddon should by no means ever be in command of anything if there's a Primarch active on the field that can replace him. Abaddon's tactics always boil down to zerg rushing and using his forces as shields to protect him should things ever sour- and he's just a bug compared to Magnus especially.

 

 

 

I don't precisely disagree in any way, at least before Abaddon has gotten time to be fleshed out and I suspect it's going to be something that changes over the course of his series.

 

It's just how it seems to be, for better or worse.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I would be fine with bringing a couple of them back as long as they aren't turned into fodder for Mary Sues like Mortarion and Magnus were.

[Tenebris]

I have mine (Magnus) still alive and kicking, he is not much of use though...

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

 

Eh, it'd mess with the story too much. Characters like Abaddon, Azrael, Calgar, etc would be completely irrelevent if there were Primarchs running around, especially Abaddon. Abaddon has absolutely zero right to even be relevent and would be but an ant if Magnus, Lorgar, Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, or Perturabo were taking to the field personally to marshall the crusades against the Imperium instead of participating in the Great Game/busy being banished. The only Primarch I could see returning without changing a lot is Khan or Vulkan, especially Vulkan, as Kyme could easily set up the next Salamander trilogy to bring him back and establish him as leader of the Salamanders again.

 

 

I'm pretty sure all the Daemon Primarch's are actually working under Abaddon, which I tend to take a somewhat neutral stance towards. I understand why it is, I don't think it's the ideal way to handle things, but what can you do?

 

At the very least, it'd bring a small smile to my face to see Fulgrim on the field again, while hacking his way through the armies of man with the legions of the apocalypse at his back.

Abaddon should by no means ever be in command of anything if there's a Primarch active on the field that can replace him. Abaddon's tactics always boil down to zerg rushing and using his forces as shields to protect him should things ever sour- and he's just a bug compared to Magnus especially.

I think your underselling Abaddon a lot. He isn't just some chaos champion who happens to be a little bit better than the others, he is the Warmaster of Chaos. He formed the largest and most powerful legion out of a group of outcasts. And Abaddon is actually a good tactician, if not one of the best because if you really think about it, when the Imperium gets it's s*** together it basically steamrolls everything in its path. It's what happened to Ghazskull, it's what happened to the Tyranids, and it's what happened to Angron. Each time they showed up, kicked some butt and conquered/destroyed a lot of territory and obliterated the imperial garrison and it's reinforcements. But each time, when the Imperium realized the threat and got all of its military bodies working together and sent them in they always won. Abaddon is the only person who has fought the full might of the Imperium on a large scale and not just survived but won. I'm referring the 13th Black Crusade btw.

[Tiberius Cato]

 

 

 

Eh, it'd mess with the story too much. Characters like Abaddon, Azrael, Calgar, etc would be completely irrelevent if there were Primarchs running around, especially Abaddon. Abaddon has absolutely zero right to even be relevent and would be but an ant if Magnus, Lorgar, Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, or Perturabo were taking to the field personally to marshall the crusades against the Imperium instead of participating in the Great Game/busy being banished. The only Primarch I could see returning without changing a lot is Khan or Vulkan, especially Vulkan, as Kyme could easily set up the next Salamander trilogy to bring him back and establish him as leader of the Salamanders again.

 

I'm pretty sure all the Daemon Primarch's are actually working under Abaddon, which I tend to take a somewhat neutral stance towards. I understand why it is, I don't think it's the ideal way to handle things, but what can you do?

 

At the very least, it'd bring a small smile to my face to see Fulgrim on the field again, while hacking his way through the armies of man with the legions of the apocalypse at his back.

Abaddon should by no means ever be in command of anything if there's a Primarch active on the field that can replace him. Abaddon's tactics always boil down to zerg rushing and using his forces as shields to protect him should things ever sour- and he's just a bug compared to Magnus especially.

I think your underselling Abaddon a lot. He isn't just some chaos champion who happens to be a little bit better than the others, he is the Warmaster of Chaos. He formed the largest and most powerful legion out of a group of outcasts. And Abaddon is actually a good tactician, if not one of the best because if you really think about it, when the Imperium gets it's s*** together it basically steamrolls everything in its path. It's what happened to Ghazskull, it's what happened to the Tyranids, and it's what happened to Angron. Each time they showed up, kicked some butt and conquered/destroyed a lot of territory and obliterated the imperial garrison and it's reinforcements. But each time, when the Imperium realized the threat and got all of its military bodies working together and sent them in they always won. Abaddon is the only person who has fought the full might of the Imperium on a large scale and not just survived but won. I'm referring the 13th Black Crusade btw.

He had to get stomped 12 previous times to barely scrape together a victory though.

[Loesh]

He had to get stomped 12 previous times to barely scrape together a victory though.

 

 

I hardly count the 12 black crusades as getting 'stomped'.

[Tenebris]

 

 

He had to get stomped 12 previous times to barely scrape together a victory though.

 

I hardly count the 12 black crusades as getting 'stomped'.

Yup, especially when it was Abaddon the one doing the stomping.

 

+ have you not learned in the First War of Armageddon that the daemonic primarchs cannot function without vast amounts of Warp energy to fuel their existance in the mortal universe, existance which is limited?

[Loesh]

 

 

He had to get stomped 12 previous times to barely scrape together a victory though.

 

I hardly count the 12 black crusades as getting 'stomped'.

Yup, especially when it was Abaddon the one doing the stomping.

 

+ have you not learned in the First War of Armageddon that the daemonic primarch cannot function without vast amounts of Warp energy to fuel their existance in the mortal universe?

 

 

Buuuuuuuuut on the other hand i'm not so keen on the view that the Primarch's are irrelevant to the universe either.

 

I guess i'm just unpleasable.

[Tenebris]

Actually the paradox here is that only if Abaddon succeeds in his Crimson Path the daemon primarchs would be able to actively participate in the Long War, sustained by the massive Warp energies unleashed by the slaughter comitted on the way to Terra.

[Phoebus]

I felt rather uncomfortable about the idea of Abaddon-as-Warmaster over even the Daemon Primarchs, but I guess I never really worried too much about the idea... not being all that invested in the forces of Chaos. Talon of Horus made me mull over that issue, though, and something occurred to me that I hadn't considered before.

Each of the Daemon Primarchs is infused by Chaos. Through various ways, they made pacts with Chaos that earned them ascension to daemonic pinched. They are, I would guess, dependent on the Ruinous Power for this power and thus thralls of a sort - and probably dependent on Chaos for their very existence.

Abaddon is likewise infused by Chaos. Unlike the Daemon Primarchs, though, he has refused to ascend and thus simply benefits from the Mark that he has been blessed with. He is a "minion of Chaos" only so far as any "mortal" creature is - probably less so, given his knowledge and experience.

More importantly, Abaddon is doing things that the Ruinous Powers want to happen. What this means - to me, at least - is that while a Daemon Primarch may very well try to stand up to Abaddon when he comes-a-calling for their assistance, the very power he depends on may very well be denied to him by Chaos. That may play a huge role in how Abaddon is capable of laying low (literally or symbolically, as A D-B alluded elsewhere) a Daemon Primarch.

Well, that, and the fact that he wields a weapon more than capable of slaying even such a creature.

[Volt]

Eh, it'd mess with the story too much. Characters like Abaddon, Azrael, Calgar, etc would be completely irrelevent if there were Primarchs running around, especially Abaddon. Abaddon has absolutely zero right to even be relevent and would be but an ant if Magnus, Lorgar, Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, or Perturabo were taking to the field personally to marshall the crusades against the Imperium instead of participating in the Great Game/busy being banished. The only Primarch I could see returning without changing a lot is Khan or Vulkan, especially Vulkan, as Kyme could easily set up the next Salamander trilogy to bring him back and establish him as leader of the Salamanders again.

I'm pretty sure all the Daemon Primarch's are actually working under Abaddon, which I tend to take a somewhat neutral stance towards. I understand why it is, I don't think it's the ideal way to handle things, but what can you do?

At the very least, it'd bring a small smile to my face to see Fulgrim on the field again, while hacking his way through the armies of man with the legions of the apocalypse at his back.

Abaddon should by no means ever be in command of anything if there's a Primarch active on the field that can replace him. Abaddon's tactics always boil down to zerg rushing and using his forces as shields to protect him should things ever sour- and he's just a bug compared to Magnus especially.

I think your underselling Abaddon a lot. He isn't just some chaos champion who happens to be a little bit better than the others, he is the Warmaster of Chaos. He formed the largest and most powerful legion out of a group of outcasts. And Abaddon is actually a good tactician, if not one of the best because if you really think about it, when the Imperium gets it's s*** together it basically steamrolls everything in its path. It's what happened to Ghazskull, it's what happened to the Tyranids, and it's what happened to Angron. Each time they showed up, kicked some butt and conquered/destroyed a lot of territory and obliterated the imperial garrison and it's reinforcements. But each time, when the Imperium realized the threat and got all of its military bodies working together and sent them in they always won. Abaddon is the only person who has fought the full might of the Imperium on a large scale and not just survived but won. I'm referring the 13th Black Crusade btw.

Because Abaddon has a massive concentration of Astartes and Daemons, not to mention he largely uses the exact same tech as the Imperium and knows all of their moves due to him being a Veteran of the Long War. By no means has Abaddon ever proven himself to possess actual tactical prowess- all times we see him he is either acting in a fairly cowardly manner and doing the equivilant and selecting his entire military currently at his disposal in an RTS and clicking the attack button. The only remarkable thing about Abaddon is that in his ten thousand years of life he hasn't gone absolutely insane like some of his fellow Veterans of the Horus Heresy... but so do a lot of other CSM's. An Alpha Legion Chaos Lord would be a far better person for the Chaos Gods to court for influence, given that the power the Alpha Legion has demonstrated by itself at times is not only frightening, but far outscales anything Abaddon has done.

Also, while Daemon Primarchs need warp enegy to sustain them, the only thing standing in their way are the Cadian Pylons. Instead of actually bothering to even commit ground forces, Abaddon should simply be dropping excessive amounts of lance fire on exposed parts of planets hosting the pylons to destroy them in a method similar to Nostramo, or just drop Exterminatus weaponry on the. Hell, even a single Nurgle Plague would have done the job far quicker- and we know the 13th Black Crusade doesn't lead to the immediate destruction of te Imperium as they're still around in M42. Plus GW rolled back the Black Crusade and its events may not even play out the same depending on how GW moves forward.

I felt rather uncomfortable about the idea of Abaddon-as-Warmaster over even the Daemon Primarchs, but I guess I never really worried too much about the idea... not being all that invested in the forces of Chaos. Talon of Horus made me mull over that issue, though, and something occurred to me that I hadn't considered before.

Each of the Daemon Primarchs is infused by Chaos. Through various ways, they made pacts with Chaos that earned them ascension to daemonic pinched. They are, I would guess, dependent on the Ruinous Power for this power and thus thralls of a sort - and probably dependent on Chaos for their very existence.

Abaddon is likewise infused by Chaos. Unlike the Daemon Primarchs, though, he has refused to ascend and thus simply benefits from the Mark that he has been blessed with. He is a "minion of Chaos" only so far as any "mortal" creature is - probably less so, given his knowledge and experience.

More importantly, Abaddon is doing things that the Ruinous Powers want to happen. What this means - to me, at least - is that while a Daemon Primarch may very well try to stand up to Abaddon when he comes-a-calling for their assistance, the very power he depends on may very well be denied to him by Chaos. That may play a huge role in how Abaddon is capable of laying low (literally or symbolically, as A D-B alluded elsewhere) a Daemon Primarch.

Well, that, and the fact that he wields a weapon more than capable of slaying even such a creature.

The diffence between Abaddon and the Daemon Primarchs is that Abaddon still cares about the Materium. Chaos for the most part, and the Daemon Princes as well, are involved into the Great Game, the eternal war in the warp betwen the Four Gods of Chaos. It's similar to the Iliad. The Gods sometimes come down to partcipate in the siege of Troy, but to them it's mere sport and as serious as a children's game. The men they kill are simply broken toys cast aside and soon replaced by better champions. To everyone else in 40k the Eternal War between Chaos, Humanity, and Xenos is of dire circumstance- but to Chaos it's just one giant playground, while mommy and daddy conduct the serious business in the warp.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Eh, it'd mess with the story too much. Characters like Abaddon, Azrael, Calgar, etc would be completely irrelevent if there were Primarchs running around, especially Abaddon. Abaddon has absolutely zero right to even be relevent and would be but an ant if Magnus, Lorgar, Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, or Perturabo were taking to the field personally to marshall the crusades against the Imperium instead of participating in the Great Game/busy being banished. The only Primarch I could see returning without changing a lot is Khan or Vulkan, especially Vulkan, as Kyme could easily set up the next Salamander trilogy to bring him back and establish him as leader of the Salamanders again.

I'm pretty sure all the Daemon Primarch's are actually working under Abaddon, which I tend to take a somewhat neutral stance towards. I understand why it is, I don't think it's the ideal way to handle things, but what can you do?

At the very least, it'd bring a small smile to my face to see Fulgrim on the field again, while hacking his way through the armies of man with the legions of the apocalypse at his back.

Abaddon should by no means ever be in command of anything if there's a Primarch active on the field that can replace him. Abaddon's tactics always boil down to zerg rushing and using his forces as shields to protect him should things ever sour- and he's just a bug compared to Magnus especially.

I think your underselling Abaddon a lot. He isn't just some chaos champion who happens to be a little bit better than the others, he is the Warmaster of Chaos. He formed the largest and most powerful legion out of a group of outcasts. And Abaddon is actually a good tactician, if not one of the best because if you really think about it, when the Imperium gets it's s*** together it basically steamrolls everything in its path. It's what happened to Ghazskull, it's what happened to the Tyranids, and it's what happened to Angron. Each time they showed up, kicked some butt and conquered/destroyed a lot of territory and obliterated the imperial garrison and it's reinforcements. But each time, when the Imperium realized the threat and got all of its military bodies working together and sent them in they always won. Abaddon is the only person who has fought the full might of the Imperium on a large scale and not just survived but won. I'm referring the 13th Black Crusade btw.

 

He had to get stomped 12 previous times to barely scrape together a victory though.

  

The other crusades weren't attacks on Cadia, they were all effectively raids to either weaken the Imperium or obtain vital information/stuff. In fact one of the Black Crusades even had a diversion attack on Cadia while Abaddon went off and destroyed a strategically valuable sector

 

 

 

 

 

 

Eh, it'd mess with the story too much. Characters like Abaddon, Azrael, Calgar, etc would be completely irrelevent if there were Primarchs running around, especially Abaddon. Abaddon has absolutely zero right to even be relevent and would be but an ant if Magnus, Lorgar, Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, or Perturabo were taking to the field personally to marshall the crusades against the Imperium instead of participating in the Great Game/busy being banished. The only Primarch I could see returning without changing a lot is Khan or Vulkan, especially Vulkan, as Kyme could easily set up the next Salamander trilogy to bring him back and establish him as leader of the Salamanders again.

 

I'm pretty sure all the Daemon Primarch's are actually working under Abaddon, which I tend to take a somewhat neutral stance towards. I understand why it is, I don't think it's the ideal way to handle things, but what can you do?

 

At the very least, it'd bring a small smile to my face to see Fulgrim on the field again, while hacking his way through the armies of man with the legions of the apocalypse at his back.

Abaddon should by no means ever be in command of anything if there's a Primarch active on the field that can replace him. Abaddon's tactics always boil down to zerg rushing and using his forces as shields to protect him should things ever sour- and he's just a bug compared to Magnus especially.

I think your underselling Abaddon a lot. He isn't just some chaos champion who happens to be a little bit better than the others, he is the Warmaster of Chaos. He formed the largest and most powerful legion out of a group of outcasts. And Abaddon is actually a good tactician, if not one of the best because if you really think about it, when the Imperium gets it's s*** together it basically steamrolls everything in its path. It's what happened to Ghazskull, it's what happened to the Tyranids, and it's what happened to Angron. Each time they showed up, kicked some butt and conquered/destroyed a lot of territory and obliterated the imperial garrison and it's reinforcements. But each time, when the Imperium realized the threat and got all of its military bodies working together and sent them in they always won. Abaddon is the only person who has fought the full might of the Imperium on a large scale and not just survived but won. I'm referring the 13th Black Crusade btw.

Because Abaddon has a massive concentration of Astartes and Daemons, not to mention he largely uses the exact same tech as the Imperium and knows all of their moves due to him being a Veteran of the Long War. By no means has Abaddon ever proven himself to possess actual tactical prowess- all times we see him he is either acting in a fairly cowardly manner and doing the equivilant and selecting his entire military currently at his disposal in an RTS and clicking the attack button. The only remarkable thing about Abaddon is that in his ten thousand years of life he hasn't gone absolutely insane like some of his fellow Veterans of the Horus Heresy... but so do a lot of other CSM's. An Alpha Legion Chaos Lord would be a far better person for the Chaos Gods to court for influence, given that the power the Alpha Legion has demonstrated by itself at times is not only frightening, but far outscales anything Abaddon has done.

 

And The other factions I mentioned didn't have large numbers? Ghazskull had the 3rd biggest WAAAGH! To ever exist and the element of complete and absolute surprise and yet he was still stalemated and shut down by The Imperium. The Tyranids also had the advantage of almost completely disrupting enemy communications but the second Imperial reinforcements got to Maccrage the. Tyranids fell apart. Angron had 50,000 Bezerkers during the Dominion of Fire and he initially had success. But when the Imperium got it together they took him down. Also, you have to understand the stratigic disadvantage of The Cadian Gate. The only way to get large forces out of The Eye is to go through a choke point with all The Imperium's guns aimed at it. Rushing through the portal piecemeal would fail spectacularly so sending everything he had was the correct decision. And it worked. The Imperium lost a good portion of Segmentum Obscuras and had to pull back and The defenders of Cadia were reduced to a single island and the planet is no longer strategically relevant.

 

Also, while Daemon Primarchs need warp enegy to sustain them, the only thing standing in their way are the Cadian Pylons. Instead of actually bothering to even commit ground forces, Abaddon should simply be dropping excessive amounts of lance fire on exposed parts of planets hosting the pylons to destroy them in a method similar to Nostramo, or just drop Exterminatus weaponry on the. Hell, even a single Nurgle Plague would have done the job far quicker- and we know the 13th Black Crusade doesn't lead to the immediate destruction of te Imperium as they're still around in M42. Plus GW rolled back the Black Crusade and its events may not even play out the same depending on how GW moves forward.

 

 Ahh, but you see Abaddon's goals aren't the same as Chaos' goals. Abaddon wants to take over the Imperium and crown himself Emperor, which would inevitably lead to conflict with Chaos so it is actually a bad idea for him to nuke the pylons because if he does Chaos will be more dangerous to him when he is charge.

 

 

 

I felt rather uncomfortable about the idea of Abaddon-as-Warmaster over even the Daemon Primarchs, but I guess I never really worried too much about the idea... not being all that invested in the forces of Chaos.  Talon of Horus made me mull over that issue, though, and something occurred to me that I hadn't considered before.

 

Each of the Daemon Primarchs is infused by Chaos.  Through various ways, they made pacts with Chaos that earned them ascension to daemonic pinched.  They are, I would guess, dependent on the Ruinous Power for this power  and thus thralls of a sort - and probably dependent on Chaos for their very existence.

 

Abaddon is likewise infused by Chaos.  Unlike the Daemon Primarchs, though, he has refused to ascend and thus simply benefits from the Mark that he has been blessed with.  He is a "minion of Chaos" only so far as any "mortal" creature is - probably less so, given his knowledge and experience.

 

More importantly, Abaddon is doing things that the Ruinous Powers want to happen.  What this means - to me, at least - is that while a Daemon Primarch may very well try to stand up to Abaddon when he comes-a-calling for their assistance, the very power he depends on may very well be denied to him by Chaos.  That may play a huge role in how Abaddon is capable of laying low (literally or symbolically, as A D-B alluded elsewhere) a Daemon Primarch.

 

Well, that, and the fact that he wields a weapon more than capable of slaying even such a creature.  :ph34r:

While I agree that in single combat any Daemon Primarch would probably wreck Abaddon in a comparison of power and influence Abaddon is the closest their is to King of The Empire of Eye while The Daemon Primarchs only control a legion and their fiefdom, some don't even have that.

 

 

 

NOTE: this is my first time cutting up a post so if it is super messy I apologize.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I want them to go the other direction and kill off some of the expendable primarchs like Lorgar, Khaaaaaan, Corax, Mortarion, etc. None of those guys have any significant role to play post Heresy. Lorgar locks himself in a tower, Khaaaaaaan and Corax get lost (Corax especially, just abandons his duty to the Imperium, lol), and Mortarion only serves to be a part of what might be 40K's most reviled fluff.
 
The Heresy has always seems a bit bloodless in that 18 superhumans go to war, and only 3 of them die. It's only gotten worse in the novel series, because before, when Primarchs fought, somebody usually died. Now they just have EpicPrimarchFistfights™ and then everyone gets dragged off to fight another day. Kinda ruins any suspense when guys fight and you know there's zero danger.

 

Let's see Dorn toss Mortarion's broken body off the walls of the palace. Or Khaaaaaaaaan get backstabbed by Curze after fighting Angron to a stalemate. Let Guilliman catch Lorgar on his retreat to the Eye and get some sweet sweet revenge.

 

 

No reason to have primarchs in 40K, except a couple of daemon princes like Angron (at least he does stuff) and Magnus (he kinda does stuff) and Fulgrim. And I guess you have to leave Perturabo in to have an Iron Cage, so a demented Perturabo locked in an endless psychosis building an impenetrable daemon world is still a fitting end.

[Tiberius Cato]

I'm pretty sure everytime you typed out Khaaan it got longer, Veteran Sergeant! :p

 

I would like to see the majority of primarch deaths during the seige of Terra, with Dorn breakin' fools backs over his knee and throwing them off the wall.