Horus Heresy: Living Primarchs

[KaosRaptor]

Just a thought regarding loyalist Primarchs coming back and the Grim/Dark of the setting...

What if one did? What if (for example) Corax came back, took command of the Raven Guard - and perhaps some of their successors - and lead them onto several successful campaigns against xenos/Chaos threats, perhaps fighting at the front lines of Cadia. The Imperium is ecstatic; one of the sons of the Emperor has returned, and is leading them to victory after victory. Chaos is being pushed back from Cadia and It seems like these may not be the last years of humanity's twilight. Some of the faceless masses even begin to regain their hope for the future.

And then, he dies.

Perhaps he was torn to shreds by packs of howling Daemons thirsting for the soul of a demigod. Or he could have been lost to the void in a vicious battle between loyalist and heretic fleets. One of the Daemon Primarchs could recognize the threat, removing themselves from the great Game of the Gods - if only briefly - in order to settle old grudges and satisfy their hunger for revenge. Maybe even Abaddon himself takes to the field, making an example of him both to the Imperium and to his own forces - Primarchs can fall, they can be killed. The Imperium despairs, the forces of Chaos are exultant. After all, (Talon of Horus spoiler)

he has killed a Primarch before.

Hell, maybe he was hit in the face by a uncharacteristically-accurate Ork Rokkit.

I dont know, something like that I think could have a lot of impact, while still maintaining the Grim Dark vibe we all know and love, I think. That's said, I'm not sure about killing the Daemon Primarchs - it would be awesome to have or two of them on a rampage, but I don't think that they would have the same impact as the return of a loyalist Primarch would.

Just my 2 cents worth

[Volt]

Just a thought regarding loyalist Primarchs coming back and the Grim/Dark of the setting...

What if one did? What if (for example) Corax came back, took command of the Raven Guard - and perhaps some of their successors - and lead them onto several successful campaigns against xenos/Chaos threats, perhaps fighting at the front lines of Cadia. The Imperium is ecstatic; one of the sons of the Emperor has returned, and is leading them to victory after victory. Chaos is being pushed back from Cadia and It seems like these may not be the last years of humanity's twilight. Some of the faceless masses even begin to regain their hope for the future.

And then, he dies.

Perhaps he was torn to shreds by packs of howling Daemons thirsting for the soul of a demigod. Or he could have been lost to the void in a vicious battle between loyalist and heretic fleets. One of the Daemon Primarchs could recognize the threat, removing themselves from the great Game of the Gods - if only briefly - in order to settle old grudges and satisfy their hunger for revenge. Maybe even Abaddon himself takes to the field, making an example of him both to the Imperium and to his own forces - Primarchs can fall, they can be killed. The Imperium despairs, the forces of Chaos are exultant. After all, (Talon of Horus spoiler)

he has killed a Primarch before.

Hell, maybe he was hit in the face by a uncharacteristically-accurate Ork Rokkit.

I dont know, something like that I think could have a lot of impact, while still maintaining the Grim Dark vibe we all know and love, I think. That's said, I'm not sure about killing the Daemon Primarchs - it would be awesome to have or two of them on a rampage, but I don't think that they would have the same impact as the return of a loyalist Primarch would.

Just my 2 cents worth

Corax walks off lascannons like they're nothing. It takes far more then a rocket to kill a Primarch. Try Titan weaponry instead.

Also, the warp would be unlikely to do anything to a Primarch given that Sanguinius himself was tearing apart daemons constantly while protecting the gate, and Primarchs themselves are born of the warp. Also, Abaddon killed

a weak, young clone of Horus we have no reason to believe even closely resembled the original in power considering the feats of Primarchs in the Horus Heresy outshine everything else. Plus IIRC Index Astartes mentioned stuff like Primarchs breaking apart mountains. They've always been hideously OP. Even going by TT they'd probably curbstomp Abaddon, as I'm fairly certain the Primarch special rule provides immunity to instant death.

[Haywire]

Really, the most tragic thing you could do is have a loyalist Primarch make a reappearance. Everyone starts rejoicing... then they quickly learn to their horror that Corax/Khan/Russ/Vulkan/Dorn and/or Lion'el is sporting the eight-pointed star and pointy-filed teeth.

 

Would put a bit of a downer on things, no?

 

It'd also be a very interesting and difficult choice for their sons.

[KaosRaptor]

Just a thought regarding loyalist Primarchs coming back and the Grim/Dark of the setting...

What if one did? What if (for example) Corax came back, took command of the Raven Guard - and perhaps some of their successors - and lead them onto several successful campaigns against xenos/Chaos threats, perhaps fighting at the front lines of Cadia. The Imperium is ecstatic; one of the sons of the Emperor has returned, and is leading them to victory after victory. Chaos is being pushed back from Cadia and It seems like these may not be the last years of humanity's twilight. Some of the faceless masses even begin to regain their hope for the future.

And then, he dies.

Perhaps he was torn to shreds by packs of howling Daemons thirsting for the soul of a demigod. Or he could have been lost to the void in a vicious battle between loyalist and heretic fleets. One of the Daemon Primarchs could recognize the threat, removing themselves from the great Game of the Gods - if only briefly - in order to settle old grudges and satisfy their hunger for revenge. Maybe even Abaddon himself takes to the field, making an example of him both to the Imperium and to his own forces - Primarchs can fall, they can be killed. The Imperium despairs, the forces of Chaos are exultant. After all, (Talon of Horus spoiler)

he has killed a Primarch before.

Hell, maybe he was hit in the face by a uncharacteristically-accurate Ork Rokkit.

I dont know, something like that I think could have a lot of impact, while still maintaining the Grim Dark vibe we all know and love, I think. That's said, I'm not sure about killing the Daemon Primarchs - it would be awesome to have or two of them on a rampage, but I don't think that they would have the same impact as the return of a loyalist Primarch would.

Just my 2 cents worth

Corax walks off lascannons like they're nothing. It takes far more then a rocket to kill a Primarch. Try Titan weaponry instead.

Also, the warp would be unlikely to do anything to a Primarch given that Sanguinius himself was tearing apart daemons constantly while protecting the gate, and Primarchs themselves are born of the warp. Also, Abaddon killed

a weak, young clone of Horus we have no reason to believe even closely resembled the original in power considering the feats of Primarchs in the Horus Heresy outshine everything else. Plus IIRC Index Astartes mentioned stuff like Primarchs breaking apart mountains. They've always been hideously OP. Even going by TT they'd probably curbstomp Abaddon, as I'm fairly certain the Primarch special rule provides immunity to instant death.

Ah, actually I totally forgot Lorgar taking several shots from a Warhound to the face...so yeah, actually something bigger would be required. Considering how many loyalists actually survived the virus bombing at Isstvan, they could probably even survive an Exterminatus. I wasn't aware that the Primarchs had innate resistance to the warp though, but then I haven't really been keeping up to date on Heresy books.

But wasn't Dorn killed by the Iron Warriors? Admittedly I think he was ridiculously outnumbered, and the only proof of fact was his recovered hand, but if he is dead then it does show that Primarchs can be killed by lesser beings.

Also, regarding Abaddon:

I've only just read the book, and I could be wrong, but as I understood it the only difference between clone-Horus and the real Horus was that 1) he was missing his Talon, and 2) he wasn't blessed by the gods. I got the impression he was combat ready and at Primarch strength, using the armour of the real Horus along with Worldbreaker. He was still able to slaughter regular marines, Rubricae, and possessed Justaerin, and Abaddon was still able to kill him (with some help of course).

In the 41st millennium, Abaddon has been blessed by all of the gods and has acquired a Daemon Weapon capable of destroying fortress gates. Honestly, I think at this point in time he has more than a good chance of being able to kill a Primarch. If he is more powerful than Horus was at the peak of the Heresy (which I believe he is), and Horus was able to kill Sanguinius, then Abaddon might also be able to kill a Primarch, no?

But all this is semantics really; the point I was making is that if GW did alter the timeline and brought a Primarch back, then I think it would be a brilliant plot point to kill him some way along the line. It doesn't really matter how, but a Primarch falling in the 41st millennium could really add to the "end of days" vibe of the setting.

If some Primarchs that are "thought" to be alive (such as Khan or Corax) were changed to have been killed during the Heresy, I'm not sure how big an impact that would actually have. Unless GW eventually progresses the story, they're essentially dead to the plot anyway - they're not playing an active part in the current setting, and show no signs of returning (just like if they were dead )

Again, just my thoughts on the matter, sorry for the long read haha.

[A D-B]

 

Ah, actually I totally forgot Lorgar taking several shots from a Warhound to the face...so yeah, actually something bigger would be required. 

 

 

Lorgar was almost killed by two shots from only one of a Warhound's weapons, even with a kinetic shield of almost unmatchable psychic strength up to defend himself. A plasma blastgun is a serious weapon, and a primarch's psychic strength is no laughing matter either. But ignoring the psychic shield part is going to lead to some gross misrepresentations in what primarchs can survive. A plasma blastgun shot would probably do to an unprotected primarch what it does to all living things.

 

A lot of the stuff about primarchs breaking mountains is pretty obviously saga-style hyperbole distorted by history. Take Russ and the Emperor, for example. That old IA article was clearly written with Norse mythology in mind, and those kinds of deeds, told in a Space Viking style.

[Prot]

They don't have to 'alter' anything.

 

This can all be done without changing a darn thing. It would be cosmetic, and there are several ways of doing it this way.

 

People watch TV shows for YEARS based on a premise that will NEVER change. Yet they tune in every week, with the (false) hope that the characters will resolve the issues at hand. In some cases if these issues every resolved, the show would be over. So we all know nothing will change in the end, yet we tune in every week.

 

Primarchs add a flavour to this genre, and as long as it's fairly even and stagnant, then nothing will change. Humanity will still be sucking the big one, fish headed Tau will still be expanding and Terra will still have the doomsday clock set 1 minute to midnight.

[A D-B]

Also, the warp would be unlikely to do anything to a Primarch given that Sanguinius himself was tearing apart daemons constantly while protecting the gate, and Primarchs themselves are born of the warp.

 

 

That's... a reach. I mean, those are the kinds of things that appear true to some characters, and are laughable to others. Is it an intrinsic truth of the setting? Does anyone know for certain? 

 

 

Also, Abaddon killed

a weak, young clone of Horus we have no reason to believe even closely resembled the original in power considering the feats of Primarchs in the Horus Heresy outshine everything else. Plus IIRC Index Astartes mentioned stuff like Primarchs breaking apart mountains. They've always been hideously OP. Even going by TT they'd probably curbstomp Abaddon, as I'm fairly certain the Primarch special rule provides immunity to instant death.

 

 

Every single sentence in this is assumption and guesswork, or based on rules (never wise, in a lore debate) to the point I can't even begin to debate it on individual points. And I don't mean that in a negative way. It's the kind of thing we have to work with when discussing the setting, but we also have to acknowledge we're working with it. Joking aside, play Devil's Advocate with yourself there. Take every single one of your assertions, flip them the other way around, and they all make sense and seem likely. The Horus clone absolutely did die like a primarch can die, given that Dorn is overwhelmed by cultists and Curze is killed by a single Assassin. You can assume the clone was weak, but the evidence of the fight you see him in, and Khayon's reaction, offers more evidence to the opposite. And there are countless arguments, given Abaddon's M41 levels of quite literal unkillable-ness, that make it much less black and white about "He could never kill a primarch".

 

Primarch Wow Factor can go too far. They're not gods. Horus is almost killed by a magic sword. Lorgar and Sanguinius are almost killed by a Bloodthirster. Mortarion is humbled by a Grey Knight. Dorn is killed by cultists. Curze is murdered by an Assassin.   

 

Context is everything, and nothing is ever, ever as simple as "No, primarchs are just better." 

[KaosRaptor]

Ah, actually I totally forgot Lorgar taking several shots from a Warhound to the face...so yeah, actually something bigger would be required.

Lorgar was almost killed by two shots from only one of a Warhound's weapons, even with a kinetic shield of almost unmatchable psychic strength up to defend himself. A plasma blastgun is a serious weapon, and a primarch's psychic strength is no laughing matter either. But ignoring the psychic shield part is going to lead to some gross misrepresentations in what primarchs can survive. A plasma blastgun shot would probably do to an unprotected primarch what it does to all living things.

Admittedly I was grossly oversimplifying the Lorgar scenario, but I did manage to somehow totally forget the psychic shield...my bad

Totally agree with your second post in that context is everything; at the moment we're discussing it like "x vs y, x would win because he's more powerful/stronger/better", but in reality (er, 40k reality) that's not how it works. There's way too many other factors to take into account to simply say "this guy would win".

[Conn Eremon]

Wait, wait, wait.
 
 

The Horus clone absolutely did die like a primarch can die, given that Dorn is overwhelmed by cultists and Curze is killed by a single Assassin.

 

Twice you specified that it was cultists who kill Dorn. Is that something that is known, the actual killers, or 'class' of killers? I knew it was a Black Legion vessel, and he is killed by those within, but I never noticed that it specifies who those were. I always assumed a mixture of the usual Chaos crowd, so cultists, but also Marines, daemons, mutants, various xenoforms.

 

In my mind, I imagined a horde of Black Legionnaires, but if it were cultists . . . Damn, I want to see this. I want to see it bad.

[Vesper]

Wait, wait, wait.

 

 

The Horus clone absolutely did die like a primarch can die, given that Dorn is overwhelmed by cultists and Curze is killed by a single Assassin.

 

Twice you specified that it was cultists who kill Dorn. Is that something that is known, the actual killers, or 'class' of killers? I knew it was a Black Legion vessel, and he is killed by those within, but I never noticed that it specifies who those were. I always assumed a mixture of the usual Chaos crowd, so cultists, but also Marines, daemons, mutants, various xenoforms.

 

In my mind, I imagined a horde of Black Legionnaires, but if it were cultists . . . Damn, I want to see this. I want to see it bad.

So the Sword of Sacrilege is a Black Legion ship now ?

I thought it happened at the beggining of a Black Crusade (one of those not named, not one of Abaddon's), but no clue about who were those who did the job.

So is that new that it's the Black Legion, or is it a mistake from your part, Cormarc ? :p

[Conn Eremon]

Probably the latter. :sweat:

[Loesh]

It wouldn't surprise me if Cultists were able to kill a non-Chaos Empowered Primarch, or even then depending on which Primarch we're talking about.

 

Few things are more dangerous then a fanatic with an agenda, even when compared to genetically enhanced super soldiers.

[Wade Garrett]

Nope, not buying this. In The First Heretic, a lone Custodian was able to stand off the entirety of Fidelitas Lex's Imperial Army contingent in a boarding action scenario, because in the corridors they could only send so many people at him.

 

And you want me to believe Rogal "if you hit him, he liked it" Dorn can't pull that off? C'mon now.

[Chapter Master Valrak]

Dorn lives, everything else is lies and heresy.

[A D-B]

Wade Garrett, on 18 Nov 2014 - 12:18 AM, said:

Nope, not buying this. In The First Heretic, a lone Custodian was able to stand off the entirety of Fidelitas Lex's Imperial Army contingent in a boarding action scenario, because in the corridors they could only send so many people at him. And you want me to believe Rogal "if you hit him, he liked it" Dorn can't pull that off? C'mon now.

 

 

I love you, but that really doesn't help this stuff. A lone Custodian spent about a minute in a corridor against whatever dregs were left aboard the ship, given that everyone else was on the planet. And said Army folks had to find him first on a ship the size of a city. His squad wasn't advertising their location on Google Maps, and they didn't stay very long at all.

 

You're right, though. A squad of Custodians on a ship the size of a city with almost all of its military contingent on the planet below would indeed chew through what crew were able to track him down. It's not a particularly incredible scenario, but that's the the point. Neither is Dorn's death.

 

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Cultists were able to kill a non-Chaos Empowered Primarch, or even then depending on which Primarch we're talking about.

 

Few things are more dangerous then a fanatic with an agenda, even when compared to genetically enhanced super soldiers.

 

Exactly. The reaction that makes more sense to me would be to think "So primarchs aren't invincible" given the evidence. You often see the little of that in these discussions. It's why the reaction "CULTISTS????" has never made any sense to me in the past, whereas "Wow, that must have been an insane number of foes to drag Dorn down" or "They must've had some neat tricks up their sleeve" are much more... likely.

 

(And yes, I know Wade was kidding. But he illustrated the point very well in his lovely way.)

 

(And yes x2, I know Cormac wasn't exactly saying that, either. To specifically answer your point, Cor, old bean - I don't know. It says "cultists", but that doesn't always mean Chaos Cultists at X points each, +5 with a flamer. In this case, I assume it just means a ravening horde of the ship's crew, but who knows?)

[Conn Eremon]

Makes sense, and yeah, I did automatically assume you meant that particular brand of cultists that are called such on tabletop.

 

Honestly, I just don't believe I ever really took a moment to think about the details of Dorn's demise since I first learned about it, and I would admit that quite a large number of personal paradigms have shifted since then. Hence the quick and easy move from 'WHOA' to 'Oh yeah, okay.'

[A D-B]

Makes sense, and yeah, I did automatically assume you meant that particular brand of cultists that are called such on tabletop.

 

Honestly, I just don't believe I ever really took a moment to think about the details of Dorn's demise since I first learned about it, and I would admit that quite a large number of personal paradigms have shifted since then. Hence the quick and easy move from 'WHOA' to 'Oh yeah, okay.'

 

I know exactly what you mean. I don't think (well, for me at least) it ever goes away. Every week there's something that I took for granted that makes me go "...oh, dude..." when I look at it now, or discuss it with someone. It's one of the reasons I love the B&C so much, too.

[Conn Eremon]

Means there is always something to learn about this setting, including those things you might have thought you already knew.

 

But I was serious that I needed to see it. Not to believe it, I just want to see it. I seem to recall you mentioning that you couldn't use this event for your Abaddon series because it had already been claimed, as well as it not being Abaddon-related?

[DarKnight]

I'm pretty much willing to accept anything in the setting as long as its presented appropriately (to my personal taste I suppose), Lorgar eating the plasma blasts & Angron holding up the leg of the Warhound in 'Betrayer' were both acceptable (and pretty effin' cool) whereas Fulgrim making all those weird jelly tendrils come out of that Titan, and the Lion doing whatever psychic energy shield thing to repel the daemon attack aboard the Invincible Reason, were just poorly done and pretty stupid IMO. If whoever writes that scene is able to pull it off in the proper manner I won't think twice about it, aside from giving Dorn a Aquila salute.

[Chapter Master Valrak]

http://i.imgur.com/8YyOh7z.gif

 

I'm done with this thread, I hate it so hard.

[Wade Garrett]

My understanding was that Isstvan V was solely an Astartes operation. Indeed, I vaguely recall dialogue in The First Heretic to the effect that deploying Imperial Army forces into a warzone with so many transhumans would would result in unacceptably high casualties. (As an aside, given that the minds making this call were Lorgar "more sacrifices for the pantheon", Perturabo "send in the next wave", and Konrad Curze, that must have been a doozy of a projected butcher's bill.)

 

And the poor saps dying fruitlessly trying to save the Blessed Lady are named as members of the Euchar regiments...but I believe at this point I'm desperately grappling with a position no one has actually put forward.

 

I think I'll just reiterate that in a confined environment (like the innards of a ship) I don't think ordinary humans (not including daemonhosts, psykers, etc) could stop a Primarch simply by drowning him in bodies. Acts of cleverness like blowing the entire vessel to kingdom come with him on it are another kettle of fish.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

I remember there was one WD containing a short story about an Iron Hands tactical marine who gets isolated from his squad and mobbed by cultists. He quickly runs out of ammo and is literally punching the cultists to death. Then one ambushes him with a plasma gun, which basically churns through half of his face, torso & arm.

 

He eventually resorts to shooting his foot off (he's hanging from a railing) so he can drop to safety.

 

We know weapons like meltaguns and plasma weapons are available to cultists - how many shots from a meltagun (a weapon designed to destroy tanks) can Dorn take before he falls?

 

Admittedly, I'd imagine that most of the fight would involve Dorn wading through a tide of dying cultists, literally covered from head to toe in gore, but there will be a moment when he's taken so much damage that he falters, and is completely swarmed.

[Conn Eremon]

I am imagining Dorn hitting this one vessel, and the entire fleet launching boarding attacks to join in.

 

Of course, that begs the question of why they didn't just destroy the ship with their guns.

[Legatus]

Dorn wasn't killed by Cultists. Give me a break. Black Crusades are spearheaded by the traitor Legions, not undertaken by a rabble of cultists by themselves. Why would Dorn be killed by some of the cultists that were part of the Black Cursade when there were plenty of traitor Marines around to throw themselves at the Imperial Fists boarding their ships?

 

Heck, with a loyal Primarch against them, the traitors may have even attempted a quick ad-hoc ritual to summon one of the Daemon Primarchs to their fleet. Even if the Black Cursade did not include one, the prospect of fighting against one of the loyal Primarchs would be a powerful incentive for a traitor to be warped to the fleet from within the Eye. Perhaps they could have summoned Angron? Or maybe it was Serpent Fulgrim, who had already murdered Dorn's brother Guilliman decades before? At the very least the traitors could have summoned a few greater daemons.

[Wade Garrett]

I am imagining Dorn hitting this one vessel, and the entire fleet launching boarding attacks to join in.

 

Of course, that begs the question of why they didn't just destroy the ship with their guns.

Everybody wants to brag about being "the guy who beheaded Rogal Dorn with this very daemon weapon strapped to my thigh" right up until you're actually within arms reach of the giant man in black punching people so hard they instantly become impressionistic paintings.