Horus Heresy: Living Primarchs

[shandwen]

It would be lovely to have a story of Corax popping out on a demon world, killing one of his brothers, and then getting dropped by wieght of numbers or anoter of hia bros. (Would also show that they are doing something...)

[Loesh]

I want them to go the other direction and kill off some of the expendable primarchs like Lorgar, Khaaaaaan, Corax, Mortarion, etc. None of those guys have any significant role to play post Heresy. Lorgar locks himself in a tower, Khaaaaaaan and Corax get lost (Corax especially, just abandons his duty to the Imperium, lol), and Mortarion only serves to be a part of what might be 40K's most reviled fluff.

 

The Heresy has always seems a bit bloodless in that 18 superhumans go to war, and only 3 of them die. It's only gotten worse in the novel series, because before, when Primarchs fought, somebody usually died. Now they just have EpicPrimarchFistfights™ and then everyone gets dragged off to fight another day. Kinda ruins any suspense when guys fight and you know there's zero danger.

 

Let's see Dorn toss Mortarion's broken body off the walls of the palace. Or Khaaaaaaaaan get backstabbed by Curze after fighting Angron to a stalemate. Let Guilliman catch Lorgar on his retreat to the Eye and get some sweet sweet revenge.

 

 

No reason to have primarchs in 40K, except a couple of daemon princes like Angron (at least he does stuff) and Magnus (he kinda does stuff) and Fulgrim. And I guess you have to leave Perturabo in to have an Iron Cage, so a demented Perturabo locked in an endless psychosis building an impenetrable daemon world is still a fitting end.

 

Considering people are unhappy with their Primarchs even submitting to Abaddon regardless of if they have done anything or not, I get the impression this would go over like a lead balloon filled with overweight children with an acid rain while being in Hanoi's airspace during the Vietnam War.

 

And I would hardly blame them.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

If they kill off a Primarch in the heresy I want it to be Vulkan. I know he's already dead but I don't want him to come back like people have hinted. it would ruin his character even more for me

[Wade Garrett]

Once upon a time, Lorgar was still directing the cults and apostles of his united Legion from his cathedral on Sicarus.

 

Then the Dark Disciple trilogy happened. (But on the plus side, all of the Seventeenth grew really nice handlebar mustaches to twirl whenever they did something short sightedly evil. Which was often.)

 

And of course, the drumbeat of THE LEGIONS ARE ALL IRRELEVANT began to sound, and you know what? If my choices are letting one of the decent writers like ADB kill him off or letting Aurelian be at the mercy of the minds that brought us Daemon Primarch Ferrus Manus, astropath venerating Black Templars and that little toad Marduk?

 

In pache resqueat.

[Veteran Sergeant]

 

I want them to go the other direction and kill off some of the expendable primarchs like Lorgar, Khaaaaaan, Corax, Mortarion, etc. None of those guys have any significant role to play post Heresy. Lorgar locks himself in a tower, Khaaaaaaan and Corax get lost (Corax especially, just abandons his duty to the Imperium, lol), and Mortarion only serves to be a part of what might be 40K's most reviled fluff.

 

The Heresy has always seems a bit bloodless in that 18 superhumans go to war, and only 3 of them die. It's only gotten worse in the novel series, because before, when Primarchs fought, somebody usually died. Now they just have EpicPrimarchFistfights™ and then everyone gets dragged off to fight another day. Kinda ruins any suspense when guys fight and you know there's zero danger.

 

Let's see Dorn toss Mortarion's broken body off the walls of the palace. Or Khaaaaaaaaan get backstabbed by Curze after fighting Angron to a stalemate. Let Guilliman catch Lorgar on his retreat to the Eye and get some sweet sweet revenge.

 

 

No reason to have primarchs in 40K, except a couple of daemon princes like Angron (at least he does stuff) and Magnus (he kinda does stuff) and Fulgrim. And I guess you have to leave Perturabo in to have an Iron Cage, so a demented Perturabo locked in an endless psychosis building an impenetrable daemon world is still a fitting end.

 

Considering people are unhappy with their Primarchs even submitting to Abaddon regardless of if they have done anything or not, I get the impression this would go over like a lead balloon filled with overweight children with an acid rain while being in Hanoi's airspace during the Vietnam War.

 

And that's why it is the only reasonable option.

 

Nobody owns any fluff. Ask the Black Templars or iron Hands fans. ;) These characters aren't "their" primarchs. Let's fix this story up right.

[The Red Thirst]

 

Angron, Mortarion, and Magnus have all taken the field in M41 without diminishing Abaddon's luster.

Angron led a tiny Khorne crusade and keeps getting his gak kicked in by the Imperium. Mortarion got banished by Draigo after doing feth-all. And Magnus is moping on the Planet of the Sorcerers after seeing some action early after the Horus Heresy to avenge his Legion. They aren't doing anything and are being purposely being pushed out of the way by authors to ensure they don't detract from other characters. If Magnus stopped moping around and rallied everyone, there would be no need for Abaddon. He's a skiled astartes in terminator armor empowered by all four chaos gods, but he isn't even in the same ballpark as the Daemon Primarchs. Lorgar, Angron, Magnus, Mortarion, Fulgrim, and Perturabo could all easily replace him, and actually be hilariously more effective in combat, Magnus especially.

 

I suggest you read Talon of Horus... might change your mind on that a bit

[Loesh]

I want them to go the other direction and kill off some of the expendable primarchs like Lorgar, Khaaaaaan, Corax, Mortarion, etc. None of those guys have any significant role to play post Heresy. Lorgar locks himself in a tower, Khaaaaaaan and Corax get lost (Corax especially, just abandons his duty to the Imperium, lol), and Mortarion only serves to be a part of what might be 40K's most reviled fluff.

The Heresy has always seems a bit bloodless in that 18 superhumans go to war, and only 3 of them die. It's only gotten worse in the novel series, because before, when Primarchs fought, somebody usually died. Now they just have EpicPrimarchFistfights™ and then everyone gets dragged off to fight another day. Kinda ruins any suspense when guys fight and you know there's zero danger.

Let's see Dorn toss Mortarion's broken body off the walls of the palace. Or Khaaaaaaaaan get backstabbed by Curze after fighting Angron to a stalemate. Let Guilliman catch Lorgar on his retreat to the Eye and get some sweet sweet revenge.

No reason to have primarchs in 40K, except a couple of daemon princes like Angron (at least he does stuff) and Magnus (he kinda does stuff) and Fulgrim. And I guess you have to leave Perturabo in to have an Iron Cage, so a demented Perturabo locked in an endless psychosis building an impenetrable daemon world is still a fitting end.

Considering people are unhappy with their Primarchs even submitting to Abaddon regardless of if they have done anything or not, I get the impression this would go over like a lead balloon filled with overweight children with an acid rain while being in Hanoi's airspace during the Vietnam War.

And that's why it is the only reasonable option.

Nobody owns any fluff. Ask the Black Templars or iron Hands fans. These characters aren't "their" primarchs. Let's fix this story up right.

Well no they don't own it, but that doesn't mean they can't just stop buying products.

Mind you i'm just a guy on an internet forum that composes 0.001% of the total fanbase, but to me the solution of the Primarchs not doing anything isn't 'kill them off' it's 'just make them do something' instead, or at least that seems like the smart thing to do.

Which isn't to say I think you're stupid, I don't, it's just upon reading your idea for how to handle the situation, even despite my favorite Primarchs not being on the kill list, caused every single fiber in my body to shriek this was a singularly horrible idea in unison with the potential to break the fanbase open horrifically.

With all due respect.

[A D-B]

And of course, the drumbeat of THE LEGIONS ARE ALL IRRELEVANT began to sound,

 

Don't even joke, dude. Someone, somewhere, read that sentence and believes it's true. Now you've made someone angry and sad. 

 

The feeling in your tummy is guilt, my friend. 

[Loesh]

 

And of course, the drumbeat of THE LEGIONS ARE ALL IRRELEVANT began to sound,

 

Don't even joke, dude. Someone, somewhere, read that sentence and believes it's true. Now you've made someone angry and sad. 

 

The feeling in your tummy is guilt, my friend. 

 

 

I would believe it if I was about 1000% more petty and spoiled then I am now, so basically if I was a teenager again.

[Prot]

Great conversation but I was thinking of this more from bothsides of the coin....loyalists too.

Like, let's say Guilliman's wound isn't quite fatal, it is somehow 'curable'. Maybe he can't operate like a full fledged Primarch anymore but it allows him to conduct his rebuild of the 500 worlds. Tau start getting pushed back, the 'quality' of the average marine starts to increase. The moral of the average citizen makes them line up to join the Astra. But at the same time it is impossible for Guilliman to lead the charge.

Pertuarbo fights the change forced on him by Fulgrim. He has found a way similar to the tech found by his 'loyal' warsmith that allowed communication in Unremembered Empire. As a result Perturabo can, and does lead some fantastic victories but these can't be full out wars for his presence is limited by the alien technology that allows it.

Stuff like that. I just saw a pattern evolve. At first it was like authors were afraid to write the Primarchs from anything more than a keyhole glimpse. I think ADB really broke that wall and now we expect... almost demand to see this war through the heart and minds of the Primarchs.

I think we're spoiled now. Look how it crushed the Iron Hands players to lose their Primarch so early in the storyline. We love this stuff, and I think we could have more of it post Terra. I think if handled with care, it could add immensely to the universe we love to read and play in, without changing the outcome.

Just a thought. Probably not gonna happen but I can dream.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I want them to go the other direction and kill off some of the expendable primarchs like Lorgar, Khaaaaaan, Corax, Mortarion, etc. None of those guys have any significant role to play post Heresy. Lorgar locks himself in a tower, Khaaaaaaan and Corax get lost (Corax especially, just abandons his duty to the Imperium, lol), and Mortarion only serves to be a part of what might be 40K's most reviled fluff.

The Heresy has always seems a bit bloodless in that 18 superhumans go to war, and only 3 of them die. It's only gotten worse in the novel series, because before, when Primarchs fought, somebody usually died. Now they just have EpicPrimarchFistfights™ and then everyone gets dragged off to fight another day. Kinda ruins any suspense when guys fight and you know there's zero danger.

Let's see Dorn toss Mortarion's broken body off the walls of the palace. Or Khaaaaaaaaan get backstabbed by Curze after fighting Angron to a stalemate. Let Guilliman catch Lorgar on his retreat to the Eye and get some sweet sweet revenge.

No reason to have primarchs in 40K, except a couple of daemon princes like Angron (at least he does stuff) and Magnus (he kinda does stuff) and Fulgrim. And I guess you have to leave Perturabo in to have an Iron Cage, so a demented Perturabo locked in an endless psychosis building an impenetrable daemon world is still a fitting end.

Considering people are unhappy with their Primarchs even submitting to Abaddon regardless of if they have done anything or not, I get the impression this would go over like a lead balloon filled with overweight children with an acid rain while being in Hanoi's airspace during the Vietnam War.

And that's why it is the only reasonable option.

Nobody owns any fluff. Ask the Black Templars or iron Hands fans. These characters aren't "their" primarchs. Let's fix this story up right.

Well no they don't own it, but that doesn't mean they can't just stop buying products.

Mind you i'm just a guy on an internet forum that composes 0.001% of the total fanbase, but to me the solution of the Primarchs not doing anything isn't 'kill them off' it's 'just make them do something' instead, or at least that seems like the smart thing to do.

Which isn't to say I think you're stupid, I don't, it's just upon reading your idea for how to handle the situation, even despite my favorite Primarchs not being on the kill list, caused every single fiber in my body to shriek this was a singularly horrible idea in unison with the potential to break the fanbase open horrifically.

With all due respect.

Yeah, but see, I value story over silly fanboyism.

I'd rather see some weight and gravitas added to what's become a fairly silly novel series.

The Primarchs don't need to "do something." They don't belong in 40K, and that's why they were all essentially written out anyway. What does killing them off change? Lorgar doesn't write a book? Corax doesn't fly off Rogue Trader-silly-style quoting Poe? (one of the more laughably bad bits of 40K fluff still hanging around)? Him and Russ, abandoning their duty shamefully. Mortarion can't get a heart tattoo? Nothing is lost. Everything to gain.

The fanbase will get over it. Just like they have every other time Games Workshop has made changes to the fluff. Only this time, they'll be changing it for the better.

[Loesh]

 

 

Yeah, but see, I value story over silly fanboyism.

 

 

I'd rather see some weight and gravitas added to what's become a fairly silly novel series.

 

The Primarchs don't need to "do something." They don't belong in 40K, and that's why they were all essentially written out anyway. What does killing them off change? Lorgar doesn't write a book? Corax doesn't fly off Rogue Trader-silly-style quoting Poe? (one of the more laughably bad bits of 40K fluff still hanging around)? Him and Russ, abandoning their duty shamefully. Mortarion can't get a heart tattoo? Nothing is lost. Everything to gain.

 

The fanbase will get over it. Just like they have every other time Games Workshop has made changes to the fluff. Only this time, they'll be changing it for the better.

 

 

What if they are fanboys because they happen to like a legions story and that story happens to be pretty good? Because frankly, killing Lorgar doesn't really change anything except get less people interested in the Word Bearers because of him. They might like what rare influence he might have, they may enjoy his characterization, and when you kill him off he's still doing what he was before...which is nothing...except now people have one less character they like and that much less incentive to get invested in the story.

 

Saying the 'fanbase will get over it' ignores that many won't, many will hemorrhage, maybe it'll be partially blocked by new blood(New blood that probably won't appear because the Primarch's were written out of the story, but rather in spite of it.) but those peoples idea's..inputs...and zeal for the game will be forever lost where otherwise it may of persisted until either they ran out of money for the hobby or they die.

 

To me, I see nothing to gain, everything to lose.

[The Red Thirst]

Great conversation but I was thinking of this more from bothsides of the coin....loyalists too.

Like, let's say Guilliman's wound isn't quite fatal, it is somehow 'curable'. Maybe he can't operate like a full fledged Primarch anymore but it allows him to conduct his rebuild of the 500 worlds. Tau start getting pushed back, the 'quality' of the average marine starts to increase. The moral of the average citizen makes them line up to join the Astra. But at the same time it is impossible for Guilliman to lead the charge.

Pertuarbo fights the change forced on him by Fulgrim. He has found a way similar to the tech found by his 'loyal' warsmith that allowed communication in Unremembered Empire. As a result Perturabo can, and does lead some fantastic victories but these can't be full out wars for his presence is limited by the alien technology that allows it.

Stuff like that. I just saw a pattern evolve. At first it was like authors were afraid to write the Primarchs from anything more than a keyhole glimpse. I think ADB really broke that wall and now we expect... almost demand to see this war through the heart and minds of the Primarchs.

I think we're spoiled now. Look how it crushed the Iron Hands players to lose their Primarch so early in the storyline. We love this stuff, and I think we could have more of it post Terra. I think if handled with care, it could add immensely to the universe we love to read and play in, without changing the outcome.

Just a thought. Probably not gonna happen but I can dream.

To me, the return of a Primarch means hope and therefore less Grimdark. The return of a near "mythical being" (to the ordinary citizens) would kill the mood im afraid, I like my 40k all doomy and gloomy

[Vesper]

Given that Magnus's post Heresy "leading" has consisted of him marching a significant chunk of his Legion to their defeat at the hands of a single Great Company and having a Blood Claw banish him back to the Warp, I think the new Warmaster isn't exactly quaking in his boots.

 

Dude, what's the point in being an awesome psyker if you can't tell that SW>everyone ? He should've known.

 

Well, Magnus at the very least has kneeled and while the relationship between Abaddon and the Primarch's probably is a continuum between mentor, adversary, and subservient over the last 10,000 years...it seems to be under him when the 13th breaks out.

 

Again, not how I think they should do it, but that's what it seems like.

Seems like Magnus didn't knelt out of awe for Abaddon's top-knot. Apparently, it was more a matter of Khayon forcing him to do so. And I think that's the key regarding the relation between Daemon Primarchs and Abaddon. Many times, he probably has to force them out of the Great Game (through offerings, threats and stuff) to get them to do stuff for him. And that's probably quite limited in time. Maybe sometimes the Daemon Primarchs agendas are the same than Abaddon's, but I would say it's not that often.

I also think the 13th is something quite unlike any other Black Crusade / Chaos incursion ever. And that's why the Daemon Primarchs are actively joining the party.

[Tenebris]

Yeah of all the chaos primarchs he is the go to puppy for kicking. On a side note, so far in lore he sits in his tower, gazes the Warp and studies magic. He has little to no interaction with his legion and his contribution is only go there, get me that trinket or that spell tome. The job, the actual Thousand Sons job is done by the likes of Ahriman, Khayon and other sorcerer lords who either by edict or by will unshackled themselves from Magnus and the XVth Legion. 

 

We learn in Talon that Mangus has to kneel sometime in the series before Abaddon, we also know from the Black Legion Supplement that he refused to aid Abaddon but Ahriman willing pledged himself to support the Warmaster. We know that Magnus lost at the Battle of the Fang and that his portrayal and contribution were ... poor ... or poorly written to say the least. 

 

I do not see a primarch who refused to help his legion when they needed it most, when he refused to guide his Sons when they needed him most, who chastised the only son who actually tried to save his legion from the degeneration of the Flesh Curse and who is petty enough to think that he did it all with the good interest for his legion, I do not see a primarch like that useful to anything or anyone bar the Changer of Ways. I stomach the events on Prospero, that was the act of a loyal son, but since Magnus became a daemon primarch most of his actions were detrimental to his legion, pushing them on the brink of existence. 

 

I really do not see what such a being could contribute to the Long War and above all to his legion when he betrayed all of this the moment he ascended and locked himself in his wizard's tower. 

[Lay]

Back in the early editions of Epic, the four god-aligned Daemon-Primarchs all had miniatures and rules and it wasn't uncommon for them to actively fight the Imperium. Only in later editions of the game did they portray the Daemon Primarchs as more distant figures (they even made Fulgrim disappear after the Heresy when the main game was in 3rd edition). Now more recently, the background is moving back to a more active portrayal of them with stuff like Angron's Dominion of Fire, Magnus' attack on Fenris, or Perturabos machine plague etc.

I bet that there are going to be even more examples in the future. After all several of the Primarch became Daemons during the Heresy, which means FW is probably going to give them miniatures. No way that those would be 30k exclusive.

 

Bringing back the loyalist Primarchs would be harder though. They are absent from all major conflicts in the timeline and all of these battles already have established heroes. Where was Guilliman when Calgar fought the Swarmlord? Why put Logan in charge of the Astartes during the 13th Black Crusade if Russ is still around? Would the Badab War even occur with a Primarch around? The Daemon Primarchs at least have the excuse that it takes some time to return after getting banished from real space, so they don't need to be everywhere.

 

Also, I don't think that Abaddon outranks the Damon Primarchs (or vice versa). The 4th edition CSM Codex states that "Only the Daemon Primarchs wield as much power as the Warmaster of the Black Legion". And the Black Legion supplement makes a big deal of Abaddon seeking audience and bartering with each of them for their support. It's pretty clear that they are peers.

[Prot]

Well I'm still holding out hope for this idea. There are still lots of open ended storylines that never tell us exactly what happens to those respective Primarchs. There is wiggle room for creativity in those storylines.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

On the original topic, Primarchs belong in Heresy era, they don't belong in 40k. They are dead/lost and all that is left are the scraps of a rotting carcass of what might once have been. This is grimdark.

[Volt]

I want them to go the other direction and kill off some of the expendable primarchs like Lorgar, Khaaaaaan, Corax, Mortarion, etc. None of those guys have any significant role to play post Heresy. Lorgar locks himself in a tower, Khaaaaaaan and Corax get lost (Corax especially, just abandons his duty to the Imperium, lol), and Mortarion only serves to be a part of what might be 40K's most reviled fluff.

The Heresy has always seems a bit bloodless in that 18 superhumans go to war, and only 3 of them die. It's only gotten worse in the novel series, because before, when Primarchs fought, somebody usually died. Now they just have EpicPrimarchFistfights™ and then everyone gets dragged off to fight another day. Kinda ruins any suspense when guys fight and you know there's zero danger.

Let's see Dorn toss Mortarion's broken body off the walls of the palace. Or Khaaaaaaaaan get backstabbed by Curze after fighting Angron to a stalemate. Let Guilliman catch Lorgar on his retreat to the Eye and get some sweet sweet revenge.

No reason to have primarchs in 40K, except a couple of daemon princes like Angron (at least he does stuff) and Magnus (he kinda does stuff) and Fulgrim. And I guess you have to leave Perturabo in to have an Iron Cage, so a demented Perturabo locked in an endless psychosis building an impenetrable daemon world is still a fitting end.

Considering people are unhappy with their Primarchs even submitting to Abaddon regardless of if they have done anything or not, I get the impression this would go over like a lead balloon filled with overweight children with an acid rain while being in Hanoi's airspace during the Vietnam War.

And that's why it is the only reasonable option.

Nobody owns any fluff. Ask the Black Templars or iron Hands fans. These characters aren't "their" primarchs. Let's fix this story up right.

Well no they don't own it, but that doesn't mean they can't just stop buying products.

Mind you i'm just a guy on an internet forum that composes 0.001% of the total fanbase, but to me the solution of the Primarchs not doing anything isn't 'kill them off' it's 'just make them do something' instead, or at least that seems like the smart thing to do.

Which isn't to say I think you're stupid, I don't, it's just upon reading your idea for how to handle the situation, even despite my favorite Primarchs not being on the kill list, caused every single fiber in my body to shriek this was a singularly horrible idea in unison with the potential to break the fanbase open horrifically.

With all due respect.

Yeah, but see, I value story over silly fanboyism.

I'd rather see some weight and gravitas added to what's become a fairly silly novel series.

The Primarchs don't need to "do something." They don't belong in 40K, and that's why they were all essentially written out anyway. What does killing them off change? Lorgar doesn't write a book? Corax doesn't fly off Rogue Trader-silly-style quoting Poe? (one of the more laughably bad bits of 40K fluff still hanging around)? Him and Russ, abandoning their duty shamefully. Mortarion can't get a heart tattoo? Nothing is lost. Everything to gain.

The fanbase will get over it. Just like they have every other time Games Workshop has made changes to the fluff. Only this time, they'll be changing it for the better.

As a Warsie, they probably won't, and you never want to mess with the fanbase. That lump George Lucas got in his throat? Caused by the stress of thousands of Warsie fans wishing his death for Episode I.

Although, the only thing the 40k fanbase has ever done as bad as Warsies is the Matt Ward hate.

[b1soul]

I would honestly love for Robby or the Lion to return. It's a long shot but hey...maybe one day

 

Corax, Vulkan, and the Khan would have less impact...I believe the Khan could easily be incorporated into current fluff. The guy does his own thing. There wouldn't be that much conflict with the High Lords.   

[mc warhammer]

i'm with vet sergeant- i say, throw in some unexpected deaths. besides watching the forums burn it'll offset the contrivance of all the daemon primarchs busy being chaosy but maybe...they'll come back! and all the loyalist primarchs being lost or asleep but maybe...they'll come back! or wake up!

[Haywire]

I ascribe to the belief that every Primarch, alive or dead, has been replaced by Alpharius.

 

 

 

 

Makes for some very trippy war councils.

[Kastor Krieg]

I ascribe to the belief that every Primarch, alive or dead, has been replaced by Alpharius.

 

 

 

 

Makes for some very trippy war councils.

Including Alpharius. And Omegon. Or Omegon.

[Haywire]

 

Including Alpharius. And Omegon. Or Omegon.

 

 

Especially Omegon!

 

But especially Alpharius.

[lilMAC25]

 

I ascribe to the belief that every Primarch, alive or dead, has been replaced by Alpharius.

 

 

 

 

Makes for some very trippy war councils.

 

Including Alpharius. And Omegon. Or Omegon.

you said "beat" twice.