Horus Heresy: Living Primarchs

[Captain Nameless]

That just goes to show that even people as serious as Dorn have an artistic side.

 

Reminds me of a line from Mass Effect: "I always wanted to learn how to paint. Now I just paint the walls with reaper blood. It's not the same, but it's a living."

[Loesh]

Do you think Chaos Warships, you know, miniature cities are manned entirely by Space Marine crews Legatus? Rather then hundreds to thousands of slaves and cultists, further bolstered by dozens of envoy ships that, themselves, contain countless humans? Where the traitor legions go, the lost and the damned follow. Where there is one Chaos Space Marine, there are thousands of traitor guard, and whenever a boarding action takes place humans who make up the vast composition of both forces tend to be in the thick of it with the Space Marines.

 

Why does a Primarch always need to be involved to kill another Primarch? Sure they are super strong, super fast, and i'm sure plenty of people were trying to get out of Dorns way. But it doesn't protect him from massed stubber fire, flamers, or even say...a knife.

 

You ever seen a knife man? Sometimes they are kind of rounded at the top for buttering stuff, but then you get the pointy ones, and the point ones are the ones you got of watch out for. Sometimes they got these little groove things along the side for sawing into stuff, one of the guys at my school got jabbed with a fork once, I know cause I did it, and he bled pretty bad. When you think about it, a fork is just a knife but worse, but you don't eat with it cause you'll cut your tongue, could you imagine one of those going in your eye? Not cool man, not cool.

[Legatus]

Do you think Chaos Warships, you know, miniature cities are manned entirely by Space Marine crews Legatus?

 

 

No, I think there were definitely a lot of Chaos Space Marines with that fleet, and they would have faced off against the Imperial Fists attacking their ships. A Black Crusade would also have access to hordes of daemons. So why would Dorn be killed fighting cultists?

 

 

You ever seen a knife man? Sometimes they are kind of rounded at the top for buttering stuff, but then you get the pointy ones, and the point ones are the ones you got of watch out for. Sometimes they got these little groove things along the side for sawing into stuff, one of the guys at my school got jabbed with a fork once, I know cause I did it, and he bled pretty bad. When you think about it, a fork is just a knife but worse, but you don't eat with it cause you'll cut your tongue, could you imagine one of those going in your eye? Not cool man, not cool.

 

 

He should'a worn power armour.

[Loesh]

Why wouldn't he? There's thousands of them, they would drown in sheer numbers, so why even bother sending Daemons or Chaos Marines if he got himself in a dumb situation?

 

Also: Nah son, it wouldn't of done nothing if it's one of those fancy knifes, for turkey cuttin.

[tgjensen]

Why wouldn't he? There's thousands of them, they would drown in sheer numbers, so why even bother sending Daemons or Chaos Marines if he got himself in a dumb situation?

 

 

Because it is highly unlikely Dorn boarded that ship all alone or without expecting to meet heavy resistance. Maybe a thousand regular human cultists could wear a lone Primarch down - I'd put money on the Primarch though - but it is exceedingly unlikely that Dorn would ever find himself alone on a Chaos warship unless heavy resistance had already killed his sizable bodyguard. Cultists, regardless of how many of them are crammed in that ship, just don't cut it.

[Legatus]

Throwing thousands of cultists on a few suqads of Space Marines might eventually wear them down, and cultists are expendable. But cultists wont stop a small Space Marine detachment from reaching the bridge/engine room and taking out a ship. You would need a more capable force to stop them from rampaging through the decks. Keeping the Chaos Marines back and just sending in the scum would not be an effective strategy when faced with Space Marine boarding parties. The Captains could sit back and watch the ship schematics as the Imperial Fists take out one target after the other.

[Loesh]

Respectfully, I disagree on pretty much every level.

 

Dorn had just come off of a terrible defeat, it's implied he may of gone so far as to become a death seeker after his run in with the Iron Warriors. Furthermore, even if he can punch people into paste with his fists, he's just a dude, a dude with two arms, and if he was isolated I would be terribly shocked if he was slain by fifty cultists if they are toting heavy duty(By human standards.) equipment, much less one hundred.

[Conn Eremon]

I'm just going to put AD-B's words back up here, because I think a few people might have missed it.

 

It says "cultists", but that doesn't always mean Chaos Cultists at X points each, +5 with a flamer. In this case, I assume it just means a ravening horde of the ship's crew, but who knows?)

In other words, everything Chaos-related could have been involved. Capital-C Cultists, Traitor Marines, Daemons, etc. Because when you got a Primarch in your midst, you send everything.

[Loesh]

I'm just going to put AD-B's words back up here, because I think a few people might have missed it.

 

It says "cultists", but that doesn't always mean Chaos Cultists at X points each, +5 with a flamer. In this case, I assume it just means a ravening horde of the ship's crew, but who knows?)

In other words, everything Chaos-related could have been involved. Capital-C Cultists, Traitor Marines, Daemons, etc. Because when you got a Primarch in your midst, you send everything.

 

 

I agree, a Primarch warrants throwing everything...I just don't think everything necessarily means space marines have to get involved before he might of died.

 

When talking about power levels, one well trained human can take down a Astartes, it's just on average they are worth 10 to a 100 men each...depending on the quality of the Space Marine and humans in question. I'm not saying they aren't badass, I mean in the Word Bearers Omnibus one of them finds it unexpected that he was acknowledged for having half his face torn off and continuing to fight, but rather that no matter how many gene implants you shove into a person one guy is...exactly that, one guy. Hell, the Emperor nearly got strangled to death by a particularly powerful ork. When people talk about a Lasgun being a flashlight, they misunderstand that the Lasgun is pretty damn potent and only less powerful compared to either high quality Autoguns or ones with alternate ammunition, you can severe a limb at close range and boil someones kidney at a distance with one of those things...even the 'weakest' gun in Warhammer hurts like hell.

 

If Dorn was isolated from the rest of his battle brothers, I simply don't see any amount of artificer armor or super human strength that would keep him from just getting dragged under a mob and killed, more so if they were well equipped like the Blood Pact.

[Wade Garrett]

And yet we've seen Corax, Perturabo, and Konrad Curze blow through fully equipped formations of Space Marines like it was nothing.

 

And the Ork that throttled the Emperor is stated to have been the size of a Warhound Titan. I have no idea what that incident is supposed to prove in regards to the threat a screeching mob with las rifles and knives would pose to a Primarch.

[Loesh]

And yet we've seen Corax, Perturabo, and Konrad Curze blow through fully equipped formations of Space Marines like it was nothing.

 

And the Ork that throttled the Emperor is stated to have been the size of a Warhound Titan. I have no idea what that incident is supposed to prove in regards to the threat a screeching mob with las rifles and knives would pose to a Primarch.

 

But it was also the Emperor, and a single ork, even if it was a damn big one. Hell, one hundred humans could probably down a Warhound titan depending on what you give them to work with.

 

A sufficiently skilled, tricky, or well equipped mob of humans could probably take on a Primarch with effort. Sure Perturbo, Corax,  and Konrad Curze have killed a lot of guys in the past...but on the other hand the last of those died to a single assassin, even if he let her kill him it's plain as day to me that they are not gods. They can be hurt with tools like any other soldier, and a sufficient exertion of firepower can bring them down.

 

Again, it's not even a question to me. They are men, they can die like anyone else if they warriors are strong enough and/or well equipped enough, gene implants or no.

[Conn Eremon]

And yet we've seen Corax, Perturabo, and Konrad Curze blow through fully equipped formations of Space Marines like it was nothing.

 

And the Ork that throttled the Emperor is stated to have been the size of a Warhound Titan. I have no idea what that incident is supposed to prove in regards to the threat a screeching mob with las rifles and knives would pose to a Primarch.

According to The Wolf of Ash and Fire, the Ork was twice the size of the Emperor.

 

So maybe a Warhound's shin?

[Loesh]

 

And yet we've seen Corax, Perturabo, and Konrad Curze blow through fully equipped formations of Space Marines like it was nothing.

 

And the Ork that throttled the Emperor is stated to have been the size of a Warhound Titan. I have no idea what that incident is supposed to prove in regards to the threat a screeching mob with las rifles and knives would pose to a Primarch.

According to The Wolf of Ash and Fire, the Ork was twice the size of the Emperor.

 

So maybe a Warhound's shin?

 

 

I actually did not know that, so...yeah....that goes double.

 

Unless Warhounds were really small back then.

[A D-B]

Dorn's death is one of those situations where we can all have our cakes and eat them, too. It's a pitch-perfect example of a 40K lore snippet that's plainly and intentionally vague, with an addendum that it's not even confirmed. We're looking straight-on at one of those historical moments that became legend, then myth, over time in a setting where history is deleted by kill-teams with flame weapons, over the course of a breathtaking span of time among an infinity of warring internal subfactions, in an empire that largely doesn't even know the Heresy ever happened. 

 

We're looking at a brief mention of an event that may never have happened that way at all; a point even noted in its original text. It's a slice of lore that conveys the Imperium's realistic inability to hold onto historical information in the face of technological degradation, byzantine bureaucracy, and the passing of time, as well as a note to convey that primarchs could die in mundane ways - much like massively wealthy, well-armoured, well-trained knights could still be pulled off their horses by twenty peasants with hooked halberds. It's allegory. It's myth. It's a possibility. And it's all we have to go by. 

 

Essentially, this isn't something we need to argue over as if there's a reliable source or a 100% right answer, because there's neither. Primarchs can get gacked by things "lesser" than primarchs. We know that, insofar as we can ever know anything in the shifting tides of 40K, because it's happened a few times. But everything depends on context. It's never going to be clear-cut.

[Loesh]

It's funny you actually mention that ADB, when I think of Dorns death...well possible death...I tend to think of a Knight on horseback being yanked off and beaten to death in that exact same way.

....Look, my home country has a long history of civilian fighting, we're a tad morbid.

[mc warhammer]

reminds me of iron snakes- in one chapter they slaughter what seems like thousands of eldar without breaking a sweat and in another, angry villagers mob them and drag the marines down to their deaths.

[Loesh]

reminds me of iron snakes- in one chapter they slaughter what seems like thousands of eldar without breaking a sweat and in another, angry villagers mob them and drag the marines down to their deaths.

 

...Really? I kinda want to see that, it sounds like an awesome scene.

[Lucien Eilam]

That's a bit of an exaggeration.

 

500 frenzied Khornate cultists take one understrength squad by surprise while they're split up. One Marine is killed by a daemon that's invisible to sensors. One Marine, previously so badly wounded by the daemon he can't even get up to answer a vox hail, is killed in the squad's Rhino when it's torched by cultists. A third is shot in the face having removed his helm, presumably so he'll be able to see any more invisible daemons. In return, the entire town is wiped out. Nobody is actually "dragged down to their death" at all.

 

It's presented not so much a scene as a list.

 

In the earlier episode, they have a full squad in a prepared chokepoint and ambush a panicked Dark Eldar force fleeing from half a company, a Captain and a Librarian. The exciting climax of that story has the squad slowly carry some Dark Eldar booby-traps to a hole and then run away.

[Legatus]

I can see it now...

 

"My Lord, the Imperial Fists have started boarding ship after ship, crippling one after another."

 

"Damn them!" *shakes fist* "I will put an end to this! Send in... our weakest men!"

 

*After many more battles*

 

"My Lord, the Imperial Fists are now heading for our bridge!"

 

"Egad! Uh... quickly, evacuate the guards!"

[mc warhammer]

That's a bit of an exaggeration.

 

500 frenzied Khornate cultists take one understrength squad by surprise while they're split up. One Marine is killed by a daemon that's invisible to sensors. One Marine, previously so badly wounded by the daemon he can't even get up to answer a vox hail, is killed in the squad's Rhino when it's torched by cultists. A third is shot in the face having removed his helm, presumably so he'll be able to see any more invisible daemons. In return, the entire town is wiped out. Nobody is actually "dragged down to their death" at all.

 

It's presented not so much a scene as a list.

 

In the earlier episode, they have a full squad in a prepared chokepoint and ambush a panicked Dark Eldar force fleeing from half a company, a Captain and a Librarian. The exciting climax of that story has the squad slowly carry some Dark Eldar booby-traps to a hole and then run away.

 

 

i might be remembering it incorrectly, but it was the rhino marine i was talking about. my memory has him being dragged down to an ignoble death. not an exaggeration as such, but a mistake in light of what you're saying.

 

still, the point is there. in one depiction, the marines seemed to be epically unstoppable and in another they are presented in a more mundane fashion. it's even in the contrasting styles of writing.

 

again though, from memory. that contrast was the main thing that stuck with me from the novel. it's the closest i've personally seen to the "multiple viewpoints" thingy of 40k presented in one cohesive work.

[tgjensen]

Respectfully, I disagree on pretty much every level.

 

Dorn had just come off of a terrible defeat, it's implied he may of gone so far as to become a death seeker after his run in with the Iron Warriors.

 

Are you referring to the Iron Cage? I thought it was locked down that Dorn died in the 32nd millennium, i.e. a thousand years or more after that incident. It's hardly a fair characterization to call him suicidal or a death seeker - he would have had plenty of chances to throw his life away before this black crusade. That whole process of purification, of which the Iron Cage was a part, led to Dorn finding new resolve, after all.

 

A D-B, out of curiosity, is there any chance you can shed light on the order of the loyal Primarchs' deaths and dissappearances? My impression is that the order post-Heresy is Corax, Lion, Khan, Guilliman, Leman Russ and finally Dorn some 800 years after Russ.

[Wade Garrett]

 

And yet we've seen Corax, Perturabo, and Konrad Curze blow through fully equipped formations of Space Marines like it was nothing.

 

And the Ork that throttled the Emperor is stated to have been the size of a Warhound Titan. I have no idea what that incident is supposed to prove in regards to the threat a screeching mob with las rifles and knives would pose to a Primarch.

According to The Wolf of Ash and Fire, the Ork was twice the size of the Emperor.

 

So maybe a Warhound's shin?

Ah, the joys of arguing about an IP that embraces the maxim consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds .

 

Regardless of whether it was twice the Emperor's size or twenty times as large, I still say that calling the Warboss on Gorro "just an ork" is like calling the Hulk "just some guy in purple pants".

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

And yet we've seen Corax, Perturabo, and Konrad Curze blow through fully equipped formations of Space Marines like it was nothing.

 

And the Ork that throttled the Emperor is stated to have been the size of a Warhound Titan. I have no idea what that incident is supposed to prove in regards to the threat a screeching mob with las rifles and knives would pose to a Primarch.

According to The Wolf of Ash and Fire, the Ork was twice the size of the Emperor.

 

So maybe a Warhound's shin?

Ah, the joys of arguing about an IP that embraces the maxim consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds .

 

Regardless of whether it was twice the Emperor's size or twenty times as large, I still say that calling the Warboss on Gorro "just an ork" is like calling the Hulk "just some guy in purple pants".

Not arguing, necessarily. I'm only aware of two references, myself. One says "just an ork," in that I don't remember any further description being given. The other says above. I was really only commenting if, when you say it is stated, you mean you heard it somewhere online.

 

Though, to be fair, there are entities in Marvel universe that would call the Hulk "just some guy in purple pants," entities that the Emperor might be more comparable to than those who would not.

 

Interestingly, while we have seen this multi-armed Goro Ork from Gorro, and he truly was devastatingly large, the Emperor remarks that this is just the outskirts of the Ullanor empire, and that they only get bigger.

[Loesh]

 

Respectfully, I disagree on pretty much every level.

 

Dorn had just come off of a terrible defeat, it's implied he may of gone so far as to become a death seeker after his run in with the Iron Warriors.

 

Are you referring to the Iron Cage? I thought it was locked down that Dorn died in the 32nd millennium, i.e. a thousand years or more after that incident. It's hardly a fair characterization to call him suicidal or a death seeker - he would have had plenty of chances to throw his life away before this black crusade. That whole process of purification, of which the Iron Cage was a part, led to Dorn finding new resolve, after all.

 

A D-B, out of curiosity, is there any chance you can shed light on the order of the loyal Primarchs' deaths and dissappearances? My impression is that the order post-Heresy is Corax, Lion, Khan, Guilliman, Leman Russ and finally Dorn some 800 years after Russ.

 

 

Yeah I was talking about the Iron Cage, but just because he's had the opportunities doesn't mean he succumb before that, or it isn't something that might not of been at the back of his head.

 

It's one reason that might of been put forth for the incident, and one that I kind of like actually. It gives a tinge of heroism  to what might of been an otherwise ignoble death, but then again i'v always been a fan of last stands.

[Loesh]

I'm just going to put AD-B's words back up here, because I think a few people might have missed it.

 

It says "cultists", but that doesn't always mean Chaos Cultists at X points each, +5 with a flamer. In this case, I assume it just means a ravening horde of the ship's crew, but who knows?)

In other words, everything Chaos-related could have been involved. Capital-C Cultists, Traitor Marines, Daemons, etc. Because when you got a Primarch in your midst, you send everything.

 

 

Also, I wanted to more fully reply to another component of this point because it's pretty good. On tabletop, a cultists weapons are fairly limited, in fluff? You could run into a human cultist that somehow got ahold of a inferno pistol, it makes quite a difference. Equipment wise things vary and as ADB said, we don't have any real specifications on what happened.