Horus Heresy: Living Primarchs

[Vesper]

As far as we know, the Sword of Sacrilege is still sailing. So maybe the Fist didn't manage to get where Dorn's corpse has been dragged or something.

[tgjensen]

According to Index Astartes Dorn's desperate attack on the Chaos fleet inflicted enough damage to stall the intended attack until reinforcement could arrive. The Sword of Sacrilege was under repairs when the Imperial Fists counter-attacked, and they "boarded the Sword of Sacrilege before it could flee and recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in stasis, [...]"

 

So the article is amiguous both in regard to how much remains and whether the Sword of Sacrilege was actually destroyed. 

[Conn Eremon]

If I recall correctly, it's that old Space Marine book by Watson that had the full skeleton in amber and his hand being separated and venerated, with the IA article not specifying what the remains exactly was, except to agree on the veneration of his imperial fist.

[Phoebus]

What does that say about Primarchs? That Primarchs can slaughter opposition wholesale, or that it depends largely on circumstance?

To me, that indicates it comes down to author's preference.

[Loesh]

 

What does that say about Primarchs? That Primarchs can slaughter opposition wholesale, or that it depends largely on circumstance?

To me, that indicates it comes down to author's preference.

 

 

I suppose so, but then again that's all of 40k canon really, it comes down to preference.

 

Personally, I identify with the Primarch's better because they aren't walking Demi-gods, though my characters and Warband treat them as such.

[b1soul]

Regarding Dorn's fate, I prefer to think that he didn't end up dead at the hands of a bunch of cultists.

 

the head cultist or some chaos sorcerer

 

Bobby getting done over by 10 tactical marines...OK, that's already pushing it. 

 

Dorn getting swarmed and killed by a bunch of cultists with knives...you'd need to justify that with special circumstances

 

I think the most reasonable way would be to have each cultist wield some sort of plague dagger or something poisonous to even a primarch. On top of that, multiple Chaos sorcerers of great power are leading the cultists, guys like Kor-Phaeron but maybe slightly less powerful (but of course there'd be like a dozen of them) 

 

Hundreds of frothing cultists wielding Chaos-tainted daggers, a dozen Chaos sorcerers, a relatively enclosed space...yeah maybe I could see that happening. I'm still wondering how those daggers breach Dorn's super-awesome Primarch armour. Maybe he's not wearing a helmet and pays dearly for it...or something

[Loesh]

 

Regarding Dorn's fate, I prefer to think that he didn't end up dead at the hands of a bunch of cultists.

 

the head cultist or some chaos sorcerer

 

Bobby getting done over by 10 tactical marines...OK, that's already pushing it. 

 

Dorn getting swarmed and killed by a bunch of cultists with knives...you'd need to justify that with special circumstances

 

I think the most reasonable way would be to have each cultist wield some sort of plague dagger or something poisonous to even a primarch. On top of that, multiple Chaos sorcerers of great power are leading the cultists, guys like Kor-Phaeron but maybe slightly less powerful (but of course there'd be like a dozen of them) 

 

Hundreds of frothing cultists wielding Chaos-tainted daggers, a dozen Chaos sorcerers, a relatively enclosed space...yeah maybe I could see that happening. I'm still wondering how those daggers breach Dorn's super-awesome Primarch armour. Maybe he's not wearing a helmet and pays dearly for it...or something

 

 

When I say knives taking him out I don't think people realize I was being somewhat-facetious. That said, cultists with the right equipment could totally take out a Primarch if the weapons had a modicum of quality or enchantment.

 

I mean really, if you mass enough heavy stubber fire on a terminator it'll go down like a sack of bricks likely before it ever reaches the 100 guns threshold, if Dorn was isolated and was outnumbered significantly, I think anything but the most crappy gear would at least give them a chance.

 

But I also don't think any sort of Astartes or any kind of sorcerer really needs to be involved, again even if he can paste people with his fists, he's still just one guy with two arms.

[Vesper]

Remember that Fulgrim almost got offed by a single sniper rifle round.

 

Granted it was NIKONA SHARROWKYN's work, but still. One can achieve great things out of pure luck.

[Loesh]

Remember that Fulgrim almost got offed by a single sniper rifle round.

 

Granted it was NIKONA SHARROWKYN's work, but still. One can achieve great things out of pure luck.

 

You didn't type his name right, it's Nikona 'I don't use the floor' Sharrowkyn sir.

[Phoebus]

While I understand (and support) the concept of a primarch meeting his end against unlikely foes in a reasonable situation, can we please stay away from the notion of them being "just one guy with two arms"?

 

A warrior of the Legiones Astartes/Adeptus Astartes is probably something on the order of Captain America in terms of strength, speed, reflexes, hand-eye coordination, stamina, etc. - but with built-in "hardware" that give him superior senses, the ability to survive ridiculous wounds, etc.  I would guess that a primarch is to a Space Marine as a Space Marine is to a normal human in those regards (meaning, attributes).

 

Again, I have no problem accepting the idea that a primarch might die at the hands of "mere mortals" given the right situation. That situation should never start or end with the notion of "he was only one guy, and he only had two arms."

 

I know you're more or less being humorous, ​Loesh, but I feel this is something that needs to be said!  :)

[Loesh]

While I understand (and support) the concept of a primarch meeting his end against unlikely foes in a reasonable situation, can we please stay away from the notion of them being "just one guy with two arms"?

A warrior of the Legiones Astartes/Adeptus Astartes is probably something on the order of Captain America in terms of strength, speed, reflexes, hand-eye coordination, stamina, etc. - but with built-in "hardware" that give him superior senses, the ability to survive ridiculous wounds, etc. I would guess that a primarch is to a Space Marine as a Space Marine is to a normal human in those regards (meaning, attributes).

Again, I have no problem accepting the idea that a primarch might die at the hands of "mere mortals" given the right situation. That situation should never start or end with the notion of "he was only one guy, and he only had two arms."

I know you're more or less being humorous, ​Loesh, but I feel this is something that needs to be said!

I know, but on that one subject I really do believe what I say. A Space Marine is worth several humans on his own...sometimes, if a person is sufficiently trained...like a Lucifer Black, he can kick a Space Marines ass one on one. Also too remember that there are things like human sized power armor, thunder hammers, and things like inferno pistols. It's not represented well on the tabletop, but a Cultist with a lot of money and something to prove can be, much like the Imperial Guard, a really dangerous sort of person.

Add on to this that while we see Primarchs kicking the snot out of dozens of people at a time, there's also instances of them being given pause by a few people at a time, I tend to be of the belief that if humans could not truly hurt the Primarchs then the Imperium would of never bothered sending an Execution Team after Horus. Compounding on this, i also tend to believe that while a Space Marine can be worth several men, this doesn't really shine until there are more then one of them and they can work together in a formation. As individuals they can be overcome and drowned, I don't think that rule doesn't apply to Primarchs: They are heavily modified humans, but even superhuman regeneration and toughness can falter and break under fire.

Now when I replied to ADB, I said that certain Primarchs I think might be exempt from this rule...and it's true, I think there are some. Which? Well funnily enough, on the top of my list would actually be the Primarch I think I have the least respect for(in character.) and most broken, that'd be Magnus. Why? Because Magnus is a ridiculously good psyker and much like how I feel about post reflection crack'd Fulgrim, once you start adding psychic powers and sorcery to the mix I feel the character becomes SUBSTANTIALLY more dangerous and a crowd clearer, and no one does that quite like Magnus. I'd also extend the same prop to Angron because I feel it'd take....relatively...large amounts of firepower to bring him down in physical combat, this might just be my personal bias of course but I think the Chaos Primarchs are probably way more dangerous then their mortal counterparts.

But for Dorn? He is just one guy, and he's one guy that if isolated from the rest of his unit on a ship could be swamped by hundreds to thousands of humans. I mean no disrespect to Dorn as a character, but the rational side of my mind says only more extensive gene-mods then what the Emperor gave him could get him out of that situation, as it stood no amount of skill was going to get him out of sheer numbers...especially if those numbers were well equipped and/or skilled themselves.

If Oan Mkoll can down a Dreadnought in single combat I do not see why a swarm of men cannot down a Primarch.

[b1soul]

 

When I say knives taking him out I don't think people realize I was being somewhat-facetious. That said, cultists with the right equipment could totally take out a Primarch if the weapons had a modicum of quality or enchantment.

 

Right...except ADB mentions dudes with knives, not dudes with Graviton cannons. Hence, I think those knives should be "empowered" somehow. Nurgle blades could plausibly fell a primarch without too much difficulty 

 

 

[daveNYC]

The kill team in Nemesis isn't the best example to use.  Remember that their master plan involved

a shield breaker round followed by a blast from a room sized x-ray laser.

 

 

Still, a kitted out cultist would be a threat to harm a Primarch.  But to actually be a mortal threat you'd probably be looking at a small herd of them and they're all packing melta weapons (or maybe one of the kookier mechancium type things).  Massed stubber fire just isn't going to cut it, Corax is literally bulletproof in Deliverance Lost.

[Loesh]

The kill team in Nemesis isn't the best example to use.  Remember that their master plan involved

a shield breaker round followed by a blast from a room sized x-ray laser.

 

 

Still, a kitted out cultist would be a threat to harm a Primarch.  But to actually be a mortal threat you'd probably be looking at a small herd of them and they're all packing melta weapons (or maybe one of the kookier mechancium type things).  Massed stubber fire just isn't going to cut it, Corax is literally bulletproof in Deliverance Lost.

 

Fair enough actually, but a herd of cultists with Melta weapons might not be a tall order if we're dealing with...like for example....the Blood Pact.

 

And if Dorn dies to humans but Angron wouldn't, does that mean Angron is better then Dorn? hell no, I almost find Dorn as objectively better as a leader and as a person, which to me is what being a Primarch is about, more then being a fighting demi-god it's about being a leader of men.

[GreyCrow]

I would love to see more information on Corax, Khan and Vulkan. Right now, their "disappearance" from the 40k universe is just a quick cop out to explain why they didn't have much influence over the 10k years since the Heresy.

 

Seriously "OMG GUYZ, I rushed headlong to the Dark Eldar webway and got trapped, ROFLMAO" or "I've liberated a world with a ragtag band of prisoner slaves, I've survived the decimating of my Legion, I haven't lost faith in my legionaries even if my attempts to rebuild were horribly sabotaged, I took the fight to the traitors legion, but now I'm just too god damn grimdark and am just going to go cry in the Eye of Terror" seem very contrived, forced and unepic endings for the Primarchs.

[Legatus]

I would love to see more information on Corax, Khan and Vulkan. Right now, their "disappearance" from the 40k universe is just a quick cop out to explain why they didn't have much influence over the 10k years since the Heresy.

 

 

"Of the original twenty Primarchs, only nine survived the Horus Heresy. The remainder were either killed in the fighting (like Horus) or fled with their Chapters into the Eye of Terror. The survivors helped the Emperor to rebuild the Imperium. A genetic bank was formed from their gene-material so that new Space Marine Chapters could be founded in the future. Although long lived, the Primarchs were not immortal and the last of their kind finally died after fourteen hundred years. Many extraordinary legends are told of the deeds of the Primarchs, many of which are preserved by the lore of the Marine Chapters. Today the Primarchs are worshipped alongside the Emperor as saints in the pantheon of the Chapter cults. Their tombs have become places of pilgrimage, and their bones and personal possessions revered relics."

- 2nd Edition Codex Imperialis, p. 20

 

So GW did not so much have the Primarchs "disappear" to explain a lack of involvement, and more because they did not have the heart to tell the Salamanders players or the Raven Guard players how "eventually Vulkan/Corax died as an old, weak man in his sleep".

 

Note: Obviously the statements above are somewhat outdated, being from the very beginning of the 2nd Edition, when even the 2nd Edition lore was not yet fully established. Striking is for example the use of the term "Chapters" for the traitor Legions, since in 1nd Editon that was what they were called. And of course, the 2nd Edition Codex Angels of Death would then tell us that Sanguinius was in fact killed at the end of the Heresy, so there were definitely not nine surviving Primarchs.

None the less, when the Index Astartes articles were written, there was little else than the statement above that had previoulsy been written about the whereabout of the five Primarchs not of the "big four". Sanguinius, Jonson, Russ and Guilliman had been covered in the 2nd Edition Codices, but there existed virtually no previous material for Dorn, Khan, Manus, Corax and Vulkan.

[Conn Eremon]

That quote says nothing about what happens to Corax or Vulkan (or Khan and Russ for that matter) before the Stone Man crumbles, though one could infer from it that they probably did fall not long after disappearing.

[A D-B]

 

 

When I say knives taking him out I don't think people realize I was being somewhat-facetious. That said, cultists with the right equipment could totally take out a Primarch if the weapons had a modicum of quality or enchantment.

 

Right...except ADB mentions dudes with knives, not dudes with Graviton cannons. Hence, I think those knives should be "empowered" somehow. Nurgle blades could plausibly fell a primarch without too much difficulty 

 

 

I'm not sure I did, dude. That level of specifics is way beyond the subject. My point is actually that we don't know exactly who it was:

 

A D-B, on 18 Nov 2014 - 2:38 PM, said:

I don't know. It says "cultists", but that doesn't always mean Chaos Cultists at X points each, +5 with a flamer. In this case, I assume it just means a ravening horde of the ship's crew, but who knows?)

 

 

A D-B, on 19 Nov 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

Dorn's death is one of those situations where we can all have our cakes and eat them, too. It's a pitch-perfect example of a 40K lore snippet that's plainly and intentionally vague, with an addendum that it's not even confirmed. We're looking straight-on at one of those historical moments that became legend, then myth, over time in a setting where history is deleted by kill-teams with flame weapons, over the course of a breathtaking span of time among an infinity of warring internal subfactions, in an empire that largely doesn't even know the Heresy ever happened.

 

We're looking at a brief mention of an event that may never have happened that way at all; a point even noted in its original text. It's a slice of lore that conveys the Imperium's realistic inability to hold onto historical information in the face of technological degradation, byzantine bureaucracy, and the passing of time, as well as a note to convey that primarchs could die in mundane ways - much like massively wealthy, well-armoured, well-trained knights could still be pulled off their horses by twenty peasants with hooked halberds. It's allegory. It's myth. It's a possibility. And it's all we have to go by.

 

[Legatus]

Where does it say that he was killed by Cultists anyway? The IF Index Astartes article did not say that. The 6th Edition Codex Space Marines and the Deathwatch: Rites of Battle don't say that. Which source am I missing?

[Phoebus]

I know, but on that one subject I really do believe what I say. A Space Marine is worth several humans on his own...sometimes, if a person is sufficiently trained...like a Lucifer Black, he can kick a Space Marines ass one on one. Also too remember that there are things like human sized power armor, thunder hammers, and things like inferno pistols. It's not represented well on the tabletop, but a Cultist with a lot of money and something to prove can be, much like the Imperial Guard, a really dangerous sort of person.

Look, on an objective, logical level, what you say makes sense. Is a primarch "just a guy with two arms" if a hundred guys with meltaguns assault him from every available angle while he's stuck inside an adamantium room whose exits were magicked away? Yes.

That view misses the point, though. Primarchs are a defining aspect of this setting. They aren't just super-fast, super-strong, and super-smart warlords. They are movers and shakers on a nearly galactic level. Just because something could happen in a fictional setting doesn't mean that it should. Any story that purports to tell us how a primarch dies should start with that thought in mind, and not whether or not it's "possible" that a comparatively mundane creature might, given the right circumstance, get a killing shot in on him.

Or, to put it another way, can you imagine if Fulgrim's fate hadn't been defined (for one reason or another) in the old background material? Can you imagine if, going with that example, SHARROWKYN shot him dead at the beginning of Angel Exterminatus? How satisfying would that have been? Is an amazing sniper with an amazing sniper rifle shooting a relaxing primarch through the eye possible? Yeah... but then what's the point of the primarchs?

I mean, how satisfying would it have been for Obi-Wan Kenobi to not "become one with the Force" vis-a-vis a lightsaber duel with Darth Vader, and to instead be shot to pieces trying to cross that perilous walkway to disable the Death Star's tractor beam? I mean, it's possible that a bunch of Stormtroopers could overwhelm his Jedi reflexes, right?

[Loesh]

I know, but on that one subject I really do believe what I say. A Space Marine is worth several humans on his own...sometimes, if a person is sufficiently trained...like a Lucifer Black, he can kick a Space Marines ass one on one. Also too remember that there are things like human sized power armor, thunder hammers, and things like inferno pistols. It's not represented well on the tabletop, but a Cultist with a lot of money and something to prove can be, much like the Imperial Guard, a really dangerous sort of person.

Look, on an objective, logical level, what you say makes sense. Is a primarch "just a guy with two arms" if a hundred guys with meltaguns assault him from every available angle while he's stuck inside an adamantium room whose exits were magicked away? Yes.

That view misses the point, though. Primarchs are a defining aspect of this setting. They aren't just super-fast, super-strong, and super-smart warlords. They are movers and shakers on a nearly galactic level. Just because something could happen in a fictional setting doesn't mean that it should. Any story that purports to tell us how a primarch dies should start with that thought in mind, and not whether or not it's "possible" that a comparatively mundane creature might, given the right circumstance, get a killing shot in on him.

Or, to put it another way, can you imagine if Fulgrim's fate hadn't been defined (for one reason or another) in the old background material? Can you imagine if, going with that example, SHARROWKYN shot him dead at the beginning of Angel Exterminatus? How satisfying would that have been? Is an amazing sniper with an amazing sniper rifle shooting a relaxing primarch through the eye possible? Yeah... but then what's the point of the primarchs?

I mean, how satisfying would it have been for Obi-Wan Kenobi to not "become one with the Force" vis-a-vis a lightsaber duel with Darth Vader, and to instead be shot to pieces trying to cross that perilous walkway to disable the Death Star's tractor beam? I mean, it's possible that a bunch of Stormtroopers could overwhelm his Jedi reflexes, right?

But you see that's the thing, Dorns fate isn't defined, in fact none of the Primarch's fates are defined. Even Konrad Curze's feed cut out just before the fight starts, we don't actually know if any of them are dead. Even Ferrus Manus, the man who we read about having his head chopped off, never had his body found and many Iron Hands believe he still lives to this day. I am not saying I believe Ferrus Manus is alive, I believe he's deader then a doornail, but I am saying there's ambiguity left there just for the possibility.

But that possibility cuts two ways, there are rumors that Fulgrim died during the Legion Wars, do I find that likely? No, but that's my interpretation. It's equally possible that Dorn was dragged out of his saddle and beat to death by cultists. Personally, I don't mind that possibility because it's just that, it's one in about ten squillion things that could of happened.

[mc warhammer]

isn't it 40k though, that "satisfying" often doesn't happen? that even demigods get the short end of the stick sometimes...

[E.G.J.]

 

What does that say about Primarchs? That Primarchs can slaughter opposition wholesale, or that it depends largely on circumstance?

To me, that indicates it comes down to author's preference.

 

 

I'd like to add reader's preference to that.  What the authors are presenting to us is one possibility of many.  Some, none, or all could be true.  Therefore, reading the lore is an interpretive exercise where the reader decides what is plausible based on available sources.  In short, we as readers have agency in our interpretation, consumption, and use of available lore.  

 

There are narratives that describe primarchs as demigods who perform godlike acts.  There are stories where primarchs are laid low by mere mortals.  Some of that may even be true.  We are just readers of a multitude of stories cobbled together from scraps that have been passed down over the millennia.  None of the lore is canon.  In fact, putting "folk" in front of it is probably how we should consider it.  Folklore.  Myths.  Maybe some of what the authors tell us is rooted in truth.  Maybe the truth is something altogether different.  That is the nature of legends.  

 

Even if we think of it as real events obscured by the passage of time, consider an example from our own universe.  Who won the battle of Qadesh?  Both sides claim victory, but it happened so long ago that it's impossible to determine which account is more accurate.  And speaking of Ramses II, was there ever an Exodus during his reign?  The latter is an account full of divine intervention etc, but it's so mired in the mists of time and influenced by 3 millennia of religious dogma that the reality of the narrative is practically irrelevant.  You either believe it or you don't....or you imagine it contains a kernel of truth, wrapped around a legend, wrapped around a myth.  Multiply that by 40k years, times an Emperor, times 20 primarchs and we might have an approximation of the veracity of any one account presented to us in 30k or 40k.

 

None of the accounts concerning any of the primarchs are definitive.  Dorn's death at the hands of cultists is simply one account.  Over the years there have been others.  He could have met his end thus or in a multitude of other ways.  We as readers have agency in interpreting which we think is plausible.  That's a great way to get around what some call "inconsistencies" in how the primarchs are presented both by the same author and between authors.  Logically, given the temporal and geographical distance involved in piecing together these various accounts (in universe), such inconsistencies should even be expected.  The only time problems arise is when one person takes one account and insists it's the truth.  And even that is entirely rational.  

 

That's the beauty of it.  Context is everything.  And so is interpretation and bias.  Because maybe everything you've been told is a lie.      

[Loesh]

You know, this isn't really Black Library, but it is relevant: Arkhona in Warhammer Eternal Crusade is supposed to be a canon event that happens during the 13th Black Crusade, while reading the Chaos description it goes so far to say that the Daemon Primarchs are personally invested in the planet.

 

So, perhaps through the new MMO, we'll see the Daemon Primarchs through Grahams stories.

[Lexington]

Primarch mortality's a weird subject. Remember, originally, Luther almost made a Lion El'Johnson Cranial Pâté with nothing more than a bolt pistol, and the Emperor was nearly throttled to death by a random, frenzied Ork. Under those circumstances, I don't think it's out of line to imagine Rogal Dorn being drowned in a room of madman cultists. During that era (RT, 2nd and maybe some of 3rd Edition), the Primarchs could dish out some pretty serious hurt, but weren't blessed with an equal set of immunities. They kinda came off like the X-Men, at least to me. Now they're more like demigods, which can probably be traced to the overall zeitgeist of scifi/fantasy material right now, but not all the backstories (like Dorn's) have been upgraded evenly. Assuming there's still a 40K to fiddle with in ten years' time, we'll probably see similar adaptive changes.