knife&fork Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 You guys seem to seriously underestimate how much of a difference points, stats and USRs makes for a unit. Look no further than our own DC, same models since forever and widely different from each edition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHarrower Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 You guys seem to seriously underestimate how much of a difference points, stats and USRs makes for a unit. Look no further than our own DC, same models since forever and widely different from each edition. I think it's more that we're comparing rumored point costs to existing unit rules (at least for me). You are being way too level headed and pragmatic through all of this! Where's your inner teenager and your "Squeees!" of joy? Sanguinius would not approve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 You are being way too level headed and pragmatic through all of this! Where's your inner teenager and your "Squeees!" of joy? Sanguinius would not approve. He's locked up tight until I've seen he actual codex. I think he's trying real hard to get out, must be why I bounce in my chair for every new picture leak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 squeeeeee from me. I'd expect glaives to stay much as they are, perhaps with a +1 strength bonus (so strength 5 and 6 for sword and axe respectively, strength 6 and 7 if we keep furious charge) OR maybe they'll take a leaf from forgeworlds book and do something like the charnable sabers that emperors children have, and make them +1 Init.... I full expect Dante to change completely as he has consistently changed each book. I think Mephiston is likely to stay pretty much as he is now tbh, I really hope we don't lose Tycho as my favourite model i have is my custom Tycho... I really like the priest, he definitely FEELS like Corbulo, but whether that means we lose him as a special character or not... who knows. Tacticals are very nice, I doubt they'll rules wise be remotely different from the ones in codex space marines (bar the option for a heavy flamer), I'd have loved an option for them to add a close combat weapon for 1pt a model... but wishing too much. I suspect we'll still see a new assault squad eventually, but no idea what they'll be like for us come the new book. Rumoured terminators sound nice, but i'd bet against them being death company terminators. anyone have any ideas on how the red thirst rule works now? has it even changed I wonder (god I hope so...) I'd been wondering if perhaps there may have been some hints about said rule in the Deathstorm boxed set, but it doesn't sound like it's the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Really curious what they will do with SG, if they drop to 165 with the same stats i'm still not sure if i'd use them (except for fun). I do love the models though, if they are semi decent i'll give them a good try. Working on a few now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Rumoured terminators sound nice, but i'd bet against them being death company terminators... Personally, I also doubt that they are death company terminators. I'm guessing either we see a return of that "blood brothers" rumor - they will represent brothers who have fought off the black rage, but were changed by it, and are now semi-controlled berserkers fighting in suits of TDA designed for the most brutal kind of close combat (hence the gatling cannon and dual chain-fist-claws). Or some other specialized Blood Angels style terminator pattern. Or maybe we are getting a special terminator kit that's dual assault/tactical and has Blood Angels markings, but won't be otherwise a new unit (that would be kind of ok, actually...). Or maybe it's just a silly rumor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovidius Incertus Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 DC terminators with dual chainfists like on the Red Butchers kit would be sweet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHarrower Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Rumoured terminators sound nice, but i'd bet against them being death company terminators... Personally, I also doubt that they are death company terminators. I think this is going to happen. GW likes taking a theme and sticking it throughout the Codex. Look at all the Ravenwing stuff they added to Dark Angels. Really a Terminator kit is the only logical spot where I can see them adding a new unit aside from a new flyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Rumoured terminators sound nice, but i'd bet against them being death company terminators... Personally, I also doubt that they are death company terminators. I think this is going to happen. GW likes taking a theme and sticking it throughout the Codex. Look at all the Ravenwing stuff they added to Dark Angels. Really a Terminator kit is the only logical spot where I can see them adding a new unit aside from a new flyer. I'd rather they be something entirely new. Although I posted in defense of death company terminators as not being stupidly fluff-breaking, I do agree that terminator armor makes more sense as something for your valued veterans who you want to make sure survive as long as possible to continue being BAMFs. Death company are - however tragically - expendable. While I don't think it's a bad idea, I also like the current set-up better. I'd rather see something entirely new - even if it's a change in the way the Black Rage operates so that Mephiston and Lemartes aren't unique anymore - than a dilution of what the death company means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Yncarne Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I'm looking forward to seeing how I fared on the bet thread. At a minimum, I'll be trying new lists and likely have new projects based on the outcome. I can't say I'm squeeking in glee, but I am looking forward to planning out the next year of projects and game opportunities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Yncarne Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Or some other specialized Blood Angels style terminator pattern. I'm thinking a "sanguinary" guard type unit. More or less the equivalent of a terminator honor guard squad, likely with fixed equipment options or number similar to the jump infantry sanguinary guard unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Rumoured terminators sound nice, but i'd bet against them being death company terminators... Personally, I also doubt that they are death company terminators. I think this is going to happen. GW likes taking a theme and sticking it throughout the Codex. Look at all the Ravenwing stuff they added to Dark Angels. Really a Terminator kit is the only logical spot where I can see them adding a new unit aside from a new flyer. Now I really, really wanna see a DC flyer. So many ridiculous possibilities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Rumoured terminators sound nice, but i'd bet against them being death company terminators... Personally, I also doubt that they are death company terminators. I think this is going to happen. GW likes taking a theme and sticking it throughout the Codex. Look at all the Ravenwing stuff they added to Dark Angels. Really a Terminator kit is the only logical spot where I can see them adding a new unit aside from a new flyer. Now I really, really wanna see a DC flyer. So many ridiculous possibilities Maybe "death company vehicle" will be an upgrade to anything with a transport capacity. The model gains extra movement (+3''? +d3'') and, if it did not already have it, gains the Assault vehicle special rule, but can only be used to transport death company models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Rumoured terminators sound nice, but i'd bet against them being death company terminators... Personally, I also doubt that they are death company terminators. I think this is going to happen. GW likes taking a theme and sticking it throughout the Codex. Look at all the Ravenwing stuff they added to Dark Angels. Really a Terminator kit is the only logical spot where I can see them adding a new unit aside from a new flyer. Now I really, really wanna see a DC flyer. So many ridiculous possibilities An angry-marine-esque flyer, shooting frothing madmen into the enemy, while giving cover by firing hate-driven missiles that blare out the tiniest little flaw they can find in the opposing troops' outer appearance. "You BO stinks, great unclean one!" No? Too silly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 You guys seem to seriously underestimate how much of a difference points, stats and USRs makes for a unit. Look no further than our own DC, same models since forever and widely different from each edition. Yeah, I will fully admit to underestimating that especially since I have no experience with BA outside of the 5th edition codex. So I don't even appreciate how different Death Company were in previous renditions. I think I read somewhere that DC used to be random and you would roll for models/units to see if they become DC? Now a return to that sort of mechanic would be awesomesauce in my view. It would be a pain in the butt for tournaments because you'd have to bring essentially a complete DC force to mirror your main force "just in case", but I personally would love it. I could see it as an outside possibility given what they did with Malefic psychic powers and the ability to spawn chaos daemons. It sure would carry a DC theme through the codex! But realistically I don't see it actually happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Just convince a brother in black to flap his arms fast enough and I'll show you a DC flyer. Save engineering for the sound of mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 even if it's a change in the way the Black Rage operates so that Mephiston and Lemartes aren't unique anymore - than a dilution of what the death company means. I think it's worth pointing out the differences between the two in the current fluff. Calistarius/Mephiston is the only Blood Angel to actually overcome the Black Rage... he came out the other end of that experience transformed. Lemartes, on the other hand, has not overcome it... he is still very much within the Black Rage, but just hasn't died in battle yet. Hence, he's in stasis between conflicts, and unleashed during the heat of battle with all of the other Death Company. I'm looking forward to seeing how I fared on the bet thread. Me, too. I was actually about to mention that in a separate post. Good luck to Morticon in grading the entries, though; it took me forever to get the grading done on the Space Wolves and Grey Knights bet threads. Eventually decided to just let everyone grade themselves and I double-checked those that reported back with the highest scores. I think I read somewhere that DC used to be random and you would roll for models/units to see if they become DC? Now a return to that sort of mechanic would be awesomesauce in my view. No thanks. It was a horrible mechanic for players, as you could randomly lose much more expensive models (Terminators, Devastators with Heavy Weapons, Sergeants, Bikers, etc.) in exchange for DC. Although it worked well with the fluff, it was terrible to have to risk. The current method is much, much better, and I hope they stick with it - it actually works for once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I predict: Dante has a unique power weapon, str+1 ap2 instant death on 6 (basically a Paragon Blade) that he can wield at initiative 6, units within 12" are fearless, retains hit and run. No eternal warrior Mephiston: Stats dropped to Chapter Master Equivalent, Eternal Warrior, Independent Character, AP2 force weapon, Has a predetermined but very effective list of Psychic Powers Sanguinor: Lord of War, Deamon Prince Statline, Smash, unable to join units Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 So, overall, I like to think that we can find a way to balance elements that should be unexpected in such a way that they are still unexpected, but without making the army list unusable. Perhaps it's because using this game as a serious, hard-minded, tactical, tournament-style wargame is the furthest from my mind. I just don't think it works in that arena. So, I don't mind rules that are weird or mess with my plans and force me to adapt because I just don't think the basic rules set of Warhammer 40k supports serious tactical play. Bring on the random divine intercessions and extreme heroic results! If they wanted this game to be serious, they'd have gone in a different direction several editions ago. That said, as I wrote at the start of this post, you also need random rules that don't tear your army to shreds before the game begins. You don't want to pay points for things that have a minuscule chance of arrival. The game needs to stay playable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascalnz Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Mephi is definitely having better stats than a chapter master. He's always had crazy stats since 2nd ed, no way that's changing. If anything they might make him more like a primarch, especially if he gets a new model. It's a travesty that Dante isn't eternal warrior considering he is the epitome of what that USR is, but.. he may well and up without it. A Paragon blade equivalent would be quite excellent however. Sanguinor needs a good rejig in his abilities, they aren't going to make a new model for him though so, he probably won't be that great. currently without IC status e is just far too easy to kill. his force multiplication is cool but e's just too easy to neutralise... you might get one round of extra attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Mephi is definitely having better stats than a chapter master. He's always had crazy stats since 2nd ed, no way that's changing. If anything they might make him more like a primarch, especially if he gets a new model. It's a travesty that Dante isn't eternal warrior considering he is the epitome of what that USR is, but.. he may well and up without it. A Paragon blade equivalent would be quite excellent however. Sanguinor needs a good rejig in his abilities, they aren't going to make a new model for him though so, he probably won't be that great. currently without IC status e is just far too easy to kill. his force multiplication is cool but e's just too easy to neutralise... you might get one round of extra attacks I agree that characters without IC status are a really annoying mechanic. It's just too damn easy to take out a single character unit with weight of fire, no matter how tough the character is. Only things that are super cheap (light walkers like AM sentinels or Eldar war walkers), immune or all but immune to small arms fire (heavy walkers like dreadnoughts), or incredibly tough with a superlative number of wounds (most monstrous creatures) can survive without ablative wounds (and many of the above don't even manage that with too much success). I hope that the new codex brings our non-IC characters at least one of the following: The Independent Character USR or at least the ability to join units under some circumstances (for example - if Mephiston could be taken with an honor guard, but he is considered part of that unit and only gains the IC special rule when they are all dead). Stats that make them survivable under the circumstances (ie. high toughness, moderately reliable or better ++ save). This applies especially to our freaking techmarines. They are completely useless as they are now! I'd love to take one as an add-on to any squad in a land raider, for example, but I can't. As it stands, I can't imagine ever taking a techmarine outside of some special narrative scenario that requires it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebymster Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 True, but just based on the models, we know that no matter what they'll still have artificer armour, jump packs, grenades, and power swords/axes so I don't see how much they could really change. Glaives Encarmine and Angelus boltguns are unique to Sanguinary Guard, so they're free to completely change the way they work. A strength bonus from the Glaive would make a big difference to how good that unit is, for example. What I don't get is that glaive is 2handed, but Angelus is no handed... I can see it's v different from having a pistol and a chain-sword, but I think the ingenuity of these weapons deserves an extra attack! I'd probs rather see that than extra S. There's just so much AP2 shooters out there right now SanGuard are not gonna be an attractive asset without something extra. Having a priest,a banner or The Sanguinor near by is just too expensive for me: even with free AP2 ccw. I love the models too and I want them to work: I have a box of about 20! But they've stayed in that box for a looooong time now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 They need 4++. Alot more ignore cover going around these days as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 4++ would be a little bit too good -- they'd be better than terminators. Although maybe they should be? I'd certainly take it but don't really see that happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robdukes Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 http://image.bolterandchainsword.com/uploads/gallery/album_10224/gallery_82194_10224_290102.png For some reason i cant post pictures on my phone and dont feel like figuring it out right now. Hopefully clicking the link will work at least. Does anyone know who this character is or what this is talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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