Cerberus Heavy Tank Destroyer

[Jolemai]

I have been searching on here and there isn't a great deal on the Cerberus. Having bought one that I will be using soon (with my 40k Blood Angels in an Apocalypse game), I was wondering what your thoughts and experiences were with it.

 

I plan on sitting it at the back, with a Techmarine behind it. It will probably be flanked with some smaller AV models. Naturally, I'll be targetting to big things (Titans, Baneblades, etc) once any Void Shields, etc, have been removed.

 

Anything else of note or what I (or future generals) should expect with/from this tank?

[Theredknight]

Having seen it used, it is potentially devastating.

 

For those 2500k games you can take it in there and there isn't a lot that can take it out at range easily.

 

Great for removing those units sat in cover such as hvy support volkites, as it ignores cover, terminators coming at you hiding in cover? No problem.

Lascannons can shoot at armour. But this I think, is the most cost effective super heavy in low games. Make sure to take the necessary upgrades to see it's survival, and extra pintle weapons and hk missiles in case it gets a weapon destroyed result.. And hopefully you won't hit your cannon.

[Emperors Teeth]

Sounds like you're describing the Typhon, Theredknight? The Cerberus is the same tank but with a triple-barrelled but unstable Neutron beam laser.

 

It's unlikely it could happen, but keep in mind there's a 1/6 chance of taking a hull point if any of its shots fail to penetrate armour. Rolling 2d6 and picking the highest is not guranteed against AV14+.

[Theredknight]

Yes..yes I am lol

[Kilofix]

I think it's main utility is forcing an opposing Unit to Snapfire.

[depthcharge12]

I think it's useful versus a knight Titan due to it's ability to concuss but also it's weapon's strength.

 

However I think it's more worth it just to grab 2 Sicaran Venators.

[Dono1979]

Keep in mind, that Weapon Destroyed results dont count towards Super Heavies, so the Cerberus cant lose its main gun.

 

The Cerberus (or even the Venator) can effectively neutralise a Titan for the entire game. Nearly every Titans weapons are blast and the Neutron Laser forces a unit to Snap shoot (even Super Heavies), thus hitting a Titan with one of these each turn effectively takes it out of the game without having to actually destroy it.

[SillyDreadnought]

Cerberus are great budget super heavies to have. Plus they look pretty awesome. Won't always have the points to break out the big shiny Fellblade variants, so the smaller, budget end super heavies are quite appealing.

[Jolemai]

Do you feel they will effectively counter Revenant and Phantom Titans? Imperial Titans should be neutered quite easily once the Void Shields are down.

[Galron]

Not as much as they would like. 4++ is pretty effective at stopping hits. Even if it hits and doesn't pen, its just going to keep moving and maybe charge into CC. It would be more effective on elder SH tanks especially if they have secondary weapons.

[Hesh Kadesh]

It's a Super Heavy with a Tank Hunting roll, that's not got Strength D. It sucks. Unlike the Venator (of which you can take 2 for the same cost), you have a chance of only firing a single shot - Concussive has no effect on enemy vehicles, and it doesn't have Ignores Cover or Instant Death to make it useful against MC's/FMC's. Actually firing the gun causes you damage as well.

 

It doesn't have a Transport Capacity.

 

For less points, you have a 7" S10 AP1 Template. A 7" Template with a BS4 is hard to miss with, and Ignores Cover, AP1 bottoms out the ID threshold, so no FNP. It clears objectives, and S10 AP1 still has a decent chance of killing tanks.

 

However, at 395 for the Cerberus (more like 415 or 445 after Armoured Ceramite and Lascannons), it's essentially just a stop gap model until you can play with your Glaive (Shadowswords are not legal options, as they are updated to be in a Horus Heresy Publication (Book IV; Conquest), and are Solar Auxilia only) or Falchion.

[jeremy1391]

It could be a diamond in the rough, forcing most other super heavies shouldn't be that hard. The has a 50 percent chance of penning av14 right off the bat without rerolling (primary weapon) so it's chances for penetration increase to around 75 percent per hit.... That's pretty good.

[SillyDreadnought]

It's a Super Heavy with a Tank Hunting roll, that's not got Strength D. It sucks. Unlike the Venator (of which you can take 2 for the same cost), you have a chance of only firing a single shot - Concussive has no effect on enemy vehicles, and it doesn't have Ignores Cover or Instant Death to make it useful against MC's/FMC's. Actually firing the gun causes you damage as well.

It doesn't have a Transport Capacity.

For less points, you have a 7" S10 AP1 Template. A 7" Template with a BS4 is hard to miss with, and Ignores Cover, AP1 bottoms out the ID threshold, so no FNP. It clears objectives, and S10 AP1 still has a decent chance of killing tanks.

However, at 395 for the Cerberus (more like 415 or 445 after Armoured Ceramite and Lascannons), it's essentially just a stop gap model until you can play with your Glaive (Shadowswords are not legal options, as they are updated to be in a Horus Heresy Publication (Book IV; Conquest), and are Solar Auxilia only) or Falchion.

I disagree. For it's points, and at the points level it's designed for ( 2500, where the much bigger super heavies aren't likely to be seen. I am not including the Questoris Knights army in this as they are a special army that requires vastly different list building and tactics to counter than a 'standard' 2500 point army is designed to handle ) the Cerberus is a fine machine. It's primarily a support tank, much like it's other lower pointed Super Heavy brothers, the Malcador and the Typhon. None of those machines can single handedly destroy things on the same level as a Fellblade or Glaive, but they excel at supporting without breaking your points limit.

The Concussive rule is actually good when used in conjunction with assaulting units against things such as lone Knights or other walkers, reducing them to Initative 1 and letting you get your Melta Bomb or other Armourbane attacks in melee without being splattered at the same time.

And no, firing the gun does NOT cause damage to you. Failing the Pen roll causes damage. And with S10, Ordanance, you have to be especially unlucky to fail that roll against most armoured targets.

It doesn't need Transport Capacity, I have no idea why you think this is a mark against the vehicle when it's competitors and peers lack Transport Capacity as well. And for less points, the Typhon gives you a more specialist anti-infantry/anti-fortification tank. The Cerberus is the anti-Walker/Tank vehicle with more durability than the Sicaran Venator. You can throw a Cerberus down and generally leave it alone as it's AV14 and 6 hull points make it very tough to kill in it's points bracket.

In larger games, you have to squadron Cerberus tanks to get your points worth out of them, no doubt. And yes, they aren't stellar compared to the Falchion or Warhounds. In 2500 games, the Cerberus is a good machine.

Of course, if you play a Legion that isn't the Iron Tenth, you can't make the Cerberus even better for 80 points And I'd avoid Armoured Ceramite. Biggest crutch point sink for tanks. For those 20 points, you can get either more guns or 20 points in another unit that will benefit from those points more.

[coloroutofspace]

(Shadowswords are not legal options, as they are updated to be in a Horus Heresy Publication (Book IV; Conquest).

 

Wait, why? Where does it say that?

[Hesh Kadesh]

LACAL, it states that you can take Imperial Super Heavy vehicles or flyers from Imperial Armour books not currently included in a Horus Heresy publication.

 

Conquest is a Heresy publication, and includes the rules for the Shadowsword. The Shadowsword is currently only an available option for Solar Auxilia as a Lords of War choice (as 'Auxilia Shadowsword Super Heavy Tank' IIRC, AFB atm. Too many acronyms there, I think).

[Jolemai]

In more recent publications (Sicaran Venerator in HH:M and Cerberus in IAv2SE) neutron lasers have the Shock Pulse rule whereby penetrated vehicles can only use snap shots next turn. I guess you don't permit that for the Cerberus in 30k?

[Hesh Kadesh]

On mobile so cannot edit in post, but in regards to SillyDreadnought;

 

For the points level, you can pick up a Typhon for cheaper which can single handedly eradicate entire blobs with FNP ignoring, Cover Ignoring AP1 blasts, or if you have the Heavy Support slots free, get a constant 4 shots and the ability to split fire in return for slighly less resilience.

 

Failing the Pen roll with S10 Ordnance vs Flare Shielded Spartans or Mechanicum Transports is a decent chance (requiring a 5 on a d6 with reroll is 'only' a 55% chance of success. Not a given by any means, and exploding is also only a 33% chance. With yet more randomisation on a d3 shots, and BS4 to hits, you wonder why you're paying 400pts and them some for the upgrades).

 

Orth makes things slightly better, but his Tank Hunters is already accounted for with Ordnance, and he adds 80pts to the cost of a substandard vehicle.

 

Concussive doesn't work on vehicles, it only works on wounds caused. The snap shot isn't too bad, but with 4 guaranteed shots compared to d3 the pair or Venators is preferential.

 

For its points, it is up against a Spartan tricked out. Not only is the Spartan mkre resilient but it is a fantastic delivery method. The trineutron laser is less capable at taking on vehicles than it is intended. A Venator is dangerous because it packs a masskve punch for its point value. If the Trineutron was d6 shots it wohld be much better. But its not, and without other factors to make it preferential, the numerous other options you have are better.

[Memento Of Prospero]

In more recent publications (Sicaran Venerator in HH:M and Cerberus in IAv2SE) neutron lasers have the Shock Pulse rule whereby penetrated vehicles can only use snap shots next turn. I guess you don't permit that for the Cerberus in 30k?

 

It has the shock pulse rule as updated in the Crusade Army List appendix.

 

The gun not having strength D is not that important. I will take D3 S10 AP1 ordance shots (with tank hunter with Castermen Orth and BS 5) over a single pie plate for tank hunting any day.

 

2 Venators take 2 heavy support slots and are only 36 inch range. The Cerberus is a very hard to remove from the table as well.

[Jolemai]

To be honest, I didn't see anyone complaining about STR 10 AP 1 for vehicle hunting before STR D was invented...

[depthcharge12]

On mobile so cannot edit in post, but in regards to SillyDreadnought;

For the points level, you can pick up a Typhon for cheaper which can single handedly eradicate entire blobs with FNP ignoring, Cover Ignoring AP1 blasts, or if you have the Heavy Support slots free, get a constant 4 shots and the ability to split fire in return for slighly less resilience.

Failing the Pen roll with S10 Ordnance vs Flare Shielded Spartans or Mechanicum Transports is a decent chance (requiring a 5 on a d6 with reroll is 'only' a 55% chance of success. Not a given by any means, and exploding is also only a 33% chance. With yet more randomisation on a d3 shots, and BS4 to hits, you wonder why you're paying 400pts and them some for the upgrades).

Orth makes things slightly better, but his Tank Hunters is already accounted for with Ordnance, and he adds 80pts to the cost of a substandard vehicle.

Concussive doesn't work on vehicles, it only works on wounds caused. The snap shot isn't too bad, but with 4 guaranteed shots compared to d3 the pair or Venators is preferential.

For its points, it is up against a Spartan tricked out. Not only is the Spartan mkre resilient but it is a fantastic delivery method. The trineutron laser is less capable at taking on vehicles than it is intended. A Venator is dangerous because it packs a masskve punch for its point value. If the Trineutron was d6 shots it wohld be much better. But its not, and without other factors to make it preferential, the numerous other options you have are better.

Sorry to crap in your cereal, but against a flare shielded Spartan, the blast weapon [for the Typhon] is -2 S for a strength of 8, which can only glance on the forward area of a Spartan. Since the flare shield will only be penetrated on a 6 from a Cerberus, it increases the likelihood of dangerous feedback, since a glance will also result in the feedback.

 

Better just to take two Venators and throw heavy bolter sponsons on. That way, you can crack open things like Dracosans, then mow the troops down instead of firing the main gun the next turn.

 

The Typhon is appealing though for wiping out the large tactical blobs.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Who said anything about putting a Typhon up against a flare shielded spartan?

 

And yes, that was exactly what I was suggesting. Why bother with the Cerberus at all when it isn't as capable at doing the job, when the only thing going for it is that it is cheaper than a tank which can actually do it - i.e the SH hunting Glaive or the Falchion are too expensive (in which case, what kind of thing are you facing at that level of points which require a Super Heavy to take on? Surely if you can't take it, your opponent can't take it), or you have already filled your HS choices.

 

If you answer is also to throw a load of upgrades on to make it into a quasi decent tank (such as Orth) and you're nearing 475+ points for it, why not just take the better tank full stop?

 

@Jolemai - if that S10 AP1 gun had ~60-80pts of unneccessary bloat added onto it, I can see you point. And when you're dealing with AV15 5HP vehicles in a game which is designed primarily to cause death by glance, such vehicles are incredibly resilient when they're tried to be made resilient.

[Raktra]

Ordnance doesn't give re-rolls, it gives the "2D6 drop the lowest" bonus, so in the context of Orth, he helps out a lot. As for why not take another vehicle - because Jolemai wants to use this one, clearly.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Brain fart for Tank Hunter. Point still stands, though.

 

If your defence to the point is 'well because I want to use this one' well, DUH. Use what you want. There isn't a viable reason outside of personal preference (which accounts for everything) as to what makes it a better choice.

 

An army consisted entirely of rotor cannons and bolters is far from remotely useable, but temper tantruming and saying 'but I want it' doesn't change the fact that it is overcosted for even its potential damage output.

 

Feel free to collect and paint whatever models you want and game with them but when asking for advice/experiences I won't lie and put my experiences down. And they are in this case, overpriced/underpowered for its cost.

[PastelAvenger]

To be honest, I didn't see anyone complaining about STR 10 AP 1 for vehicle hunting before STR D was invented...

Before Flare Shields were invented, they are causing the need for St D weapons.

[Dono1979]

Considering we are putting our experiences down, I find the cerberus quite a valuable addition to the list, especially against opponents fielding Titans (warhounds, or reavers if you are going all out). Being able to force a Titan to snap shoot is close to game changing, as most Titan are equipped with blast or template weapons and those weapons which arent are pretty tame, a snap firing Titan is effectively one which has been removed from the game for that round. Doing this over the course of multiple rounds can render 750+ points basically useless.

 

Yes the Venator can do this to the same basic extent but their range is limited and they can explode from a single Lascannon/Melta shot. The Cerberus is a FAR more versatile and survivable version, being able to move 12" and still fire every weapon plus being able to withstand multiple anti tank shots and not drop in performance is huge step up from the Venator.

 

Added to that, as has been mentioned, taking two Venator eats up two heavy support slots. Most of the time when taking a Cerberus, you are not trying to compete against your opponents Super Heavy toe to toe, you are trying to neutralise it with a far lower points value and overwhelm him with standard units which they would be lacking due to their investment into the more expensive SH.

 

That's my experience anyway, from playing 2-3 Apocalypse game a month.