Codex: Khorne, next week?

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

It looks like we might see some scatter mitigation for warp talons then?

 

In any case though, I feel like I can't justify giving money to gw for this release. I like the ideas behind the blood tithe rule and the switch in daemon/csm synergy, but there are so many flaws with this book right now I don't want to contribute to gw's sales because it would encourage such poor planning. The only way gw will stop releasing this type of failed execution is if lots of people do the same. Though my individual nonbuy will do quite little, I hope others join me in such an endeavor. I was really excited for this release until I actually saw the rules for it. As such, I will only be playing it i someone lends me a copy, even though it is basically the army I usually run already. Shame really.

And then GW will think chaos marines wont sell and we could end up getting the SoB treatment...

[Uprising]

 

It looks like we might see some scatter mitigation for warp talons then?

 

In any case though, I feel like I can't justify giving money to gw for this release. I like the ideas behind the blood tithe rule and the switch in daemon/csm synergy, but there are so many flaws with this book right now I don't want to contribute to gw's sales because it would encourage such poor planning. The only way gw will stop releasing this type of failed execution is if lots of people do the same. Though my individual nonbuy will do quite little, I hope others join me in such an endeavor. I was really excited for this release until I actually saw the rules for it. As such, I will only be playing it i someone lends me a copy, even though it is basically the army I usually run already. Shame really.

And then GW will think chaos marines wont sell and we could end up getting the SoB treatment...

 

That's not a bad thing, we can all go use fw legion rules or use count as.  That is a much better solutions then let gw write our rules anymore. 

[Castigator]

I can appreciate people's disappointment over this, it isn't what most Chaos Marine players wanted. Most of us wanted a Legion Codex and unfortunately this clearly isn't that. The simple fact is that the Chaos Marine Codex has been a hobby dex and nothing more since 3.5. We all know its short-comings and unfortunately for the more competitive player, this new Codex will not address those short-comings in any meaningful way.

I've seen people mention Daemonkin for the other Gods and I really think people are getting ahead of themselves. I don't think this will be rolled out to the other Gods anytime soon (if ever).

I think most of the disappointment stems from the implications that we will be stuck with an underpowered Codex for at least another year or two and that GW seem uninterested in what their Chaos Marine customers want or what needs to be addressed to make the Chaos Marine Codex function better. So it's hardly surprising that Chaos players like to vent their frustrations from time to time.

 

That said however, I think this is another hobby dex that will offer more variety and diversity to aid us in our 'long war.'

Khorne Chaos Marine armies have been underwhelming for a long time now and if this Codex brings one more Khorne player to the battlefield I welcome it. As a Slaanesh player, I particularly enjoy battling against the Blood Gods minions and I'm really looking forward to getting to grips with them.

From what I've seen so far, the artwork looks lush with plenty of background to pour over. I'm hopeful we will see more cool looking Khorne armies on the tabletop once again.....okay, they might not be competing for the top positions, but they'll look damned sexy nonetheless!

[Trevak Dal]

With the Crimson Slaughter supplement, you can at least make a lord/Warpsmith/Dark Apostle with Rage, Furious charge and counter attack with the Mark of KHorne and the Horns.

 

I don't have much use for Daemons, and I think it's a waste of a codex (and the writers' time) to make it, when they could (and should) Errata the Daemon Codex to allow them to be joinable with similarly marked units (Khorne Daemons to Khorne Marked CSMs, etc) allow Icons to work for respective marks-it would *gasp* encourage players to synergizing marked units, and even buying into Daemons to allow for some interesting tactics that Loyalists can't really replicate.

I look more and more at the Tau books and shake my head as to how great they are.  I can bring in units from reserve with no scatter-with a 10 point upgrade.  Like "oh no, my boys are going to be on the recieving end of a terrible thrashing from those BloodAngels"

"COMMANDER-Tell your Warriors to hold their positions...reinforcements are on the spoke."

 

*deep striking Firebats with double flamers burniate the Threat, and then jump back where they are 6" from the threatened unit*

 

 

THAT is Cinematic.  And it doesn't require lots of wrestling with a Codices' mechanics to make it work.  Maybe that's the idea, that because Chaos is so, chaotic we're more like Orks in Power armor than Space Marines anymore.

 

To me, my Chaos Marines are pretty much out numbered, out gunned, and out ruled.  It's like EVERY Gears of War trailer-which in and of itself is Cinematic...but not in the "We're going to win this war" kind of way.  Chaos is NOT the Archenemy.  They're terrorists at best, and petty criminals at worst.

[Adra'Melek]

Khorne Chaos Marine armies have been underwhelming for a long time now and if this Codex brings one more Khorne player to the battlefield I welcome it. As a Slaanesh player, I particularly enjoy battling against the Blood Gods minions and I'm really looking forward to getting to grips with them.

Well it's got me in so put a smile on that face. Mainly so I can remove it, along with the rest of your head. Skulls for the Skull Throne!

[incinerator950]

 

 

You're welcome.

 

A rushed, flawed game with development cuts managed to do better than two major rulebooks and two supplemental releases did for our playerbase.

 

That helps the discussion because, frankly, you have to be fooling yourself to believe this book is actually worth the investment in.

This game is definitely wider than us talking about why we don't have a 'stronger' codex all the time.

 

What I truly just don't understand is why not move on if the entire chaos thing brings such negativity to your gaming life?

 

Is this codex going to solve much for chaos on the tabletop? Probably not. Is the game bigger than our successes and failures on the tabletop? Absolutely.

 

I probably won't pick this book up. (I just lied, and I know it... darn it!) But am I happy about it? Absolutely. Any attention chaos gets to me is good.. it's good for the background, art, pictures, painting, modeling, and yes, even the gaming.

 

But if you don't see that. If you don't share that view, and everything GW does for Chaos turns you off, and/or displeases you, I honestly don't understand what repeated negativity on the forums changes for you or anyone else for that matter.

Because it will continue to get worse for everyone. Bad attempts that continually ruin it for everyone by inches affects more than me. Like gun control, but with severely less lethal reprocussions on lumps of plastic for hobbying.

 

Technically I did move on. I just linger because I have a pile of Chaos sitting on my desk and want something to do with rather than be like my landlord collecting trains.

 

I for one am very happy that the codex was made.

Oh?

[Castigator]

Khorne Chaos Marine armies have been underwhelming for a long time now and if this Codex brings one more Khorne player to the battlefield I welcome it. As a Slaanesh player, I particularly enjoy battling against the Blood Gods minions and I'm really looking forward to getting to grips with them.

Well it's got me in so put a smile on that face. Mainly so I can remove it, along with the rest of your head. Skulls for the Skull Throne!

It will be my pleasure to gift your unsophisticated master with your blood

[Brother Ambroz]

 

 

You're welcome.

 

A rushed, flawed game with development cuts managed to do better than two major rulebooks and two supplemental releases did for our playerbase.

 

That helps the discussion because, frankly, you have to be fooling yourself to believe this book is actually worth the investment in.

This game is definitely wider than us talking about why we don't have a 'stronger' codex all the time.

 

What I truly just don't understand is why not move on if the entire chaos thing brings such negativity to your gaming life?

 

Is this codex going to solve much for chaos on the tabletop? Probably not. Is the game bigger than our successes and failures on the tabletop? Absolutely.

 

I probably won't pick this book up. (I just lied, and I know it... darn it!) But am I happy about it? Absolutely. Any attention chaos gets to me is good.. it's good for the background, art, pictures, painting, modeling, and yes, even the gaming.

 

But if you don't see that. If you don't share that view, and everything GW does for Chaos turns you off, and/or displeases you, I honestly don't understand what repeated negativity on the forums changes for you or anyone else for that matter.

Because it will continue to get worse for everyone. Bad attempts that continually ruin it for everyone by inches affects more than me. Like gun control, but with severely less lethal reprocussions on lumps of plastic for hobbying.

 

Technically I did move on. I just linger because I have a pile of Chaos sitting on my desk and want something to do with rather than be like my landlord collecting trains.

 

Not everyone thinks they're bad, so why don't we just keep the complaining and such to a minimum?

[Rain]

Honestly the problem isn't even that they did a bad job, it's that they didn't even try. This just feels like already existing content slapped together to get more attention for new Bloodthirster models.

 

They didn't bother changing or updating a single unit, and we weren't exactly Eldar or Tau to begin with. Some also take this as a sign that a core CSM update won't happen for a while, or that if it will, it will also just throw in formations, change the artifacts, and call it a day, which will not fix what is currently a bottom tier army outside of a few niche builds that don't even use Chaos Space Marines in a "Chaos Space Marine" list.

 

Closest thing to a silver lining is what it has always been, 40k is far too imbalanced to be taken seriously as a competitive game anyway, so just try to find like-minded players and hope they don't spam too much plasma or play Necrons.

 

Edit: @Prot: I actually tried this, I sold my Chaos and played Dark Eldar. I actually started DE in 5th right when they were redone, and played a really fun combined arms shooting and assault list. Then 6th edition killed it with--well 6th edition. Then I played a much more shooty list, but with still one assault unit that contained both an Archon and a Haemy for all kinds of fun special rules.

 

Then the DE "update" came, and I sold that too. No more AP2 on Archons, nerf and price hike on Ravagers, no more flickerfields, night shields no longer a unique mechanic, no more interesting haemy artifacts like Str D6 AP D6 Assault 2D6 one use only that could lead to hilarious murderfests or nothing at all, etc. Thanks Gee Dub!

 

No other factions interest me enough to put thousands of dollars behind them. I tried to get into Flesh Tearers, but they just feel like Diet Chaos Marines (fluff wise). I likewise tried to like Necrons, but--meh, they are just missing that "it factor" of Chaos and Dark Eldar.

[Scribe]

I dont know its odd for me.

 

I find it next to impossible to work up any ire for this. First, its a throw back to the combined lists of a past age, we have a unified Chaos Marines and Daemons book, with an over arching and army unifying mechanic, that is actually sensical for the first time in years. We have a book that is for Khorne players, and isn't 'LOL MY PLAGUE MARINES ARE LIKE...TOUGH KHORNE GUYS' and the oh so good 'Double Lash Princes...leading berzerkers...totally valid dudes...'

 

It allows me to field (outside of Khârn...) the same formation essentially I used in Apocalypse for years as well.

 

To make it even more crazy, I 'have' every codex and rules release since 6th.

 

I actually purchased this book, and thats after already acquiring the scans.

 

Is it a Legion book? No. Will we ever get one? I really think not. Will CSM proper ever be buffed? Not for a long long long time, and certainly not in a way players are asking for.

 

Blood for our Blood God gentlemen, and may you reap Skulls for the Skull Throne of our Lord of Rage, Kharnath.

[Forté]

Technically I did move on. I just linger because I have a pile of Chaos sitting on my desk and want something to do with rather than be like my landlord collecting trains.

 

You could always paint them and build an army with them. Just an idea.

[Tenebris]

Well I think we should try to understand the Daemonkin as an experiment, an experiment in a combined Daemons/Marines codex for the 7th, an experiment with a different "tally" mechanic and an experiment with an unexpected and "new" type of chaos warbands, the "crusading" armies of the Dark Gods. 

 

Now was this experiment a success? We shall see, but we must approach to it as one would to ahem an experiment. We should see what works and what does not, we should try to divine the rationale of GW behind this release, we should try to understand if this was just "Codex: Buy the new Bloodthirster" or it is actually something different. I recall the release of Crimson Slaughter, a supplement based upon a "new" Chaos faction. The Daemonkin is similar in this because it tries to represent a so far unheard facet of Chaos. I will give it its due attention, I will play it and I will try to field it even in a tournament, though I do not expect miracles.

 

All in all it is an interesting concept. The Khorne Daemonkin has a "death tally" as its core mechanic, I wonder now which core mechanics will be used for the Daemonkin books of the other gods. 

[Sception]

nvm

[Khornestar]

 

 

 

Sure, I suppose you could say based on the wording that you can replace multiple weapons to purchase the weapon artefacts. It's clear you can only get one of the armor/helm/rune, and if you get any of those, you can't also get a weapon artefact.

Just to clarify, where does it state this?

 

The weapon option looks to be one for one, so you could take two.

 

Yep, which is essentially what you quoted me saying. See the linked picture a few posts up the quoted post.

Sorry, I should have specified. Was more on about the armour/ helm/ rune, and it cancelling out being able to take weapon artefacts. Just seems a bit odd.

 

 

From this page:

 

http://i.imgur.com/HNYYsOW.jpg

[Tenebris]

Topic lock-down in 12 hours. The rumor phase is over, the book was released, tomorrow we can debate with facts and rules in our hand. 

[Scribe]

I can see where you are coming from malisteen. I suppose on one hand I just am a bit of (a huge) sucker for punishment. 

 

World Eaters 3.5 - Sold

Khorne CSM 4th - Sold

Daemons - 4th/5th? - Sold

Khorne Marines 6th - Sold

Khorne Daemons 6th - Still have, but have been in boxes.

Black Legion - Boxes for months.

Crimson Slaughter - Boxes

 

Looking at this book, it encourages your stuff to die. Its a twist on how the game could be played, and for that reason alone (cuz lets be honest our guys die fine) I'm excited to give it a shot as I LIKE games where everyone dies because that means its not a one sided joke one way (3 heldrakes..i did it) or the other.

 

At the end of the day, its not going to fix CSM the Marines, but since I at least get something when those CSM are swept and killed for losing by 1 wound, /shrug I'll just bring more small units.

[Khornestar]

For what it's worth, I emailed the GW customer service department to communicate my displeasure. I did so in an adult fashion (or as much as possible when complaining about a game of toy soldiers, you know what I mean).

 

Sure there is something of a disconnect between the customers and the company -- especially the creative team -- but if we don't actually voice our complaints they won't ever hear them.

 

The customer service response assured me he/she would forward my complaints to the appropriate personnel. Could have been blowing smoke, but I'd prefer to believe they at least got as far as "some whiner said your book sucks."

 

What will it accomplish? I don't know, I can't say. Maybe nothing? Maybe something.

 

custserv@gwplc.com is the customer service email addy.

[Khornestar]

Also, for some reason Karanak is in the Daemonkin HQ section now.

[Scribe]

Whats the complaint though? I'm not saying there is no valid complaint to be made, Khorne knows I've wasted millions of keystrokes on here and Warseer alone, but what is it exactly?

 

No Legion focus?

No Cult HQ/Elites?

No Buff to the CSM?

[Slayer le Boucher]

Not to burst your bubble Venomlust, but don't you think we've allready made this before?

 

Groosely at least once each 6 months someone comes up with a Collective complaint letter, a petition or a mass complaints mail crusade, since the last decade, all of this lead to where we stand now, :cussing nowhere.

[Khornestar]

I'm not talking about a campaign, and no I have no idea what people may or may not have done in the past. Simply a way of voicing complaints to the appropriate party rather than the sounding board that is the internet forum.

[Teetengee]

Whats the complaint though? I'm not saying there is no valid complaint to be made, Khorne knows I've wasted millions of keystrokes on here and Warseer alone, but what is it exactly?

 

No Legion focus?

No Cult HQ/Elites?

No Buff to the CSM?

I don't care about the lack of legion focus, I personally don't play them, and this was fairly clearly not going to be this book from the very beginning.

I have a few main issues with it.

The first is the lack of cult units.

The second is the lack of new kits, but that isn't so much an issue with this book.

The third is that the rules are really poorly though out. Any summoned bloodthirster probably won't attack until 5th turn at best (2-3 turns after being summoned and wrecking my dude that was already there). No dirge casters, even though they would be hugely helpful and there is no real reason for them not to be there. Grossly expensive points cost for almost everything (cultists for instance). Additionally, the only things that really look effective were stuff I was already doing just fine without this book. The rules are insultingly unplaytested. Still no way to create a rock solid assault character. (AOBF is still superior to basically all the weapons I see).

 

I was super excited that this release would allow for a real cult of khorne army. But it doesn't really add anything that I can't already do at least as well.

 

If they had released new kits, I would probably buy those (bloodthirster is a different issue, but I like it, I just don't have that kind of money for something I already have more of than I need). But this book is not a product that I care to give them money for.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Yeah no Dirge casters and no Destroyer upgrades for vehicles is rather...strange, i really don't get why we don't have those...

[Kastellan Kong]

is this Codex? The detachment rules are retarded.

"The Blood Host Detachment is a special type of Detachment that can be included in any Battle-forged army. Unlike the Detachments shown in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules, it has a Force Organisation Chart whose slots are a combination of specific Formations and Army List Entries instead of Battlefield Roles. However, it still has compulsory and optional elements, as well as Restrictions and Command Benefits, just like any other Detachment."

It's a complete cluster ****.

Why did you do this GW? I'm highly disappointed.

edit: Oh, I see what they did now, still, it's kind of annoying when they try and re-invent the wheel every few releases. Slightly less disappointed, but more annoyed.

[Scribe]

Topic lock-down in 12 hours. The rumor phase is over, the book was released, tomorrow we can debate with facts and rules in our hand. 

 

Where should posts for this book go, as it (rightly) merged Daemons and Marines again.

 

Considering the only armies I have ever finished are my Khornate ones, odds are high(er) that I will actually stick it out with this book.