Codex: Khorne, next week?

[Zhukov]

I find it completely laughable that the usual suspects are screaming "Bull:cuss!" before anybody held the new supplement in hand. I wonder when people will finally realize that 40k simply is a casual game. A look at the CS and the BL supps should have taught everybody what to expect. If you dislike so strongly what chaos has to offer, and primarily want to compete in tournaments, pick up another army already and stop making everybody sick with your bile. Thanks in advance.

I find it completely laughable that fanboys will defend whatever bone GW throws them and then blame other people for not being satisfied with the products GW produces. Because that's what this codex is, it's a product and it deserves to be reviewed as such. The rules are part of the product. The rules in this case can't be looked at in a vacuum, it needs to be compared to other rules out there. It turns out the rules are overall not well written, although there are some good intentions (I love the Blood God rule in itself, great way to put fluff into gaming terms). 

 

We should have expected after the CS and BL supps that any future chaos codex release would be mediocre as well? What? Why? You act as if GW does it on purpose. They're not purposefully writing bad rules I assume, there is no malice intent there. However, that doesn't mean they aren't responsible, they are. They apparantly don't seem to be fulfilling the demands of a lot of consumers and in these case the demands/expectations were fairly reasonable.

 

Stop acting like people are unreasonable for expecting decent rules which makes them able to enjoy games against other like minded gamers who play with a different army. As long as GW writes rules, they are responsible for them and they are just as much of a rules writing company as they are a miniature producer.

[Khornestar]

Thanks for comments on the list. It's of course meant to be fun and not designed for tourneys in mind, which I honestly have no interest in playing. I have a huge CSM/Daemons force, and frankly could make a flying circus/summoning list, but the idea doesn't appeal to me whatsoever.

 

Truly, this list fits my play style in every game. I always play the close combat guy who is fueled more by rage than intricate strategy. Charge then as soon as possible, engage as soon as possible, and hope to slaughter as much as possible. In World of Warcraft, I played an orc warrior with a two-handed axe. ALWAYS the first one to charge in, usually the first one to die. But sometimes I'd get a string of crits and obliterate the opponent before they had a chance to punch any keys )and THEN I would die :P). Those would be the moments that made it all worthwhile.

 

Much like World of Warcraft, this is just a game. Of course we want to win, and of course we want to feel like we're on equal footing with the other armies in the game, but the designers are never going to live up to our expectations. In our minds there are easy ways to give us what we want and whatnot, but the reality is that they will never deliver, for various reasons. We can continue playing the game doing the best we can with what we have, play a different army, or stop giving them our money. It's a bitter pill to swallow because clearly we're all very attached in various ways, but (I'm not patronizing when I say this, I'm sure we all know) life isn't fair and we don't always get what we want. There are worse things going on in my life than my army not getting the upgrades I feel it deserved. I've nearly lost 3 family members in the past year, and one will be going any time now. Sometimes I have to take a step back and realize how silly I've been for getting bent out of shape over 40k.

 

I do my fair share of whining, maybe more sometimes, but I am a slave of the blood god. I'm used to getting shot to pieces already, every single game. This book at least gives me a few extra tricks to mess around with, and rewards me for the playstyle that I prefer. Sometimes when I list build I min/max, and I have Forge World goodness, but this is really the army that I want to play most of the time. If I can just beat my suuuuper cheesy (and sometimes cheating, I hear) Tau-playing friend with this army ONE TIME, I will never let him live it down, and I will consider the purchase of the codex totally worthwhile.

 

 

In regards to my list, at 2000 points I would replace 2 units of Cultists with 2 units of Chaos Space Marines with Mark of Khorne in a Rhino with a Dirge Caster and Extra Armor. With the remaining 10 points I'd give the 2 Axe of Khorne Lords melta bombs. 

 

At 2500 points I'd go unbound and add 2 Fire Raptors to the mix :).

[the jeske]

So why you shed tears of blood my brethren?

 

 

The army doesn't work. It isn't about being best for tournaments. It is just that by using the same models[csm and demons] you get a better list, just by fact you get better relics and don't have to take realy bad units.

 

 

I do my fair share of whining, maybe more sometimes, but I am a slave of the blood god.

I know that people sometimes seem to not know when am seriouse and when am not. Ye all should know that it is mutual.

 

 

I find it completely laughable that the usual suspects are screaming "Bull:cuss!" before anybody held the new supplement in hand.

 

But more then a few people had the book in their hands and even more saw scans. But let says your right no one outside the DT has seen the book[although we kind of a getting leeks from someone], I do think that there is enough people in the world playing the game to understand how the army works.

 

I mean for Christ sake. It is a melee list. how does it deal with nids or any army using invisibility? With FW?But a demon army with same FW units is more optimal[even a khorn demon one].

[Tenebris]

I think it is premature to evaluate the worth of this book until next week when we will have it in our hands. What can I evaluate so far is the WD coverage of the book and so far it was inspiring. New color schemes for Khorne Daemons and Marines, an introduction to the Blood Tithe army rule and the general presentation of the new lore, namely the Daemonkin as the sacred hosts of Khorne on a twisted crusade for the favor of their patron god, a favor earned with bloodshed and skulls, mountains of skulls. This I can evaluate and it is positive in my opinion. 

 

I think that the CSM book will not be released this year and maybe neither the next one but the recent rules will be the Daemonkin so we have to make due with what we have. It is hard to bring Chaos on the level of the Necrons with the current rules but every effort is at least something. I am sincere when I say that I do not think that the next book will be anything better than the current one but we can hope, yet this is a distant future and not the current situation.

 

My question is why in the first place GW is obliged to make competitive books? They are not, what they are obliged to do are rules for the new models, the lore and background to support them and a way to field them in a legit bound or Unbound list. Whether they work or not, whether they are competitive or not it is not within their remit, what it is in their remit is that a model has the rules to be played in a tabletop game. 

 

We all agree that the rules are usually driven by the demand of sales, that is true and an undeniable aspect of every business like the one GW is conducting. Yes they write rules, but nowhere it is written that the rules are written with the current tournament scene in mind. Alas the tournaments are a thing GW no longer supports and neither has an interest in, resulting in a more sandbox experience, in a more lenient ruleset, in an effort to make fluff and fluffy models and fluffy rules, that is what Daemonkin is.

 

It happens as a result of the policy described above, that some rules are better and some are bad for the "tournament scene", it results in some rules which can be abused and some combinations which are broken by fair play standards (though whose standards is the question here). 

 

I simply ask to understand that with the advent of the 6th which led into the 7th edition of the Warhammer 40k rules, GW decided to go into a more sandbox experience, where rules are considered simply a medium which allows one of their models to be played by a player. Considering that no effort from the company is given to actually calibrate the "meta" it is clear that we are in it for the fun and the lolz of playing plastic soldiers and going to a tournament is simply a competitive experience with the rules and the armies which are not devised to be competitive or "tournament friendly" in the first place. 

[Sception]

Thanks for comments on the list. It's of course meant to be fun and not designed for tourneys in mind, which I honestly have no interest in playing. I have a huge CSM/Daemons force, and frankly could make a flying circus/summoning list, but the idea doesn't appeal to me whatsoever.

It's a nice enough looking list, but it really encapsulates a my problems with the book. The best/funnest list you could come up with out of the khorne cult book has no chaos marines, no berzerkers, and couldn't field cult terminators or hqs if it wanted to because they don't exist. It's the same sort of csm-less rush list as we already see, just with dogs inatead of some of the bike/spawn units that would have been there otherwise.

 

It hasn't changed anything, and that's just depressing, because change was needed, and all this book does is tell us that change isn't coming in 7e.

 

 

And, again, its isn't just about competitive. Even just for casual fun, this showing doesn't even try. No cult termies or hqs, not even kharne. Wouldn't even have needed new models for them.

[Emperor's Furor]

Ain't cult terminators just terminators with the mark of khorne?

[Iron Skull Mask]

Not sure what you mean by fanboy Zhukov. I respect you for your tactical insight. I respect nobody for being negative nancies and cry babies, who think bitching is an art-form. It's simply no use to spit out bile and bring people down about things not even released. If you don't like a product, don't buy it. Instead buy stuff you like. That's what I did with BL and CS supp. That was my vote on these. I didn't whine and complain. I won't buy that release either since it doesn't address my interest in the hobby. Do I have to make people who are interested in a Khorne book miserable because my hopes and wishes are not fulfilled? No, I don't. What use is there in whining and complaining? None! Never changed anything and never will. GW doesn't give two :cusss about internet buzz. All you do is making this forum a worse place for people interested in the hobby. I doubt that is what you want. But then again, I don't now what it is you want.

[Kol Saresk]

Ain't cult terminators just terminators with the mark of khorne?

Currently, yes. Which is what we do have in the daemonkin supplement.

 

What Malisteen is referring to is a throwback from 3rd Edition in which there were special Terminators for each of the four mono-god lists that had special upgrades and options that could not be found outside that specific list. Which is, again, something we have not seen since 3rd Edition.

 

Although I do find the complaints about the lack of Skullcrushers a little weird when the Daemonkin do have access to Skullcrushers. Or is it only through the Blood Tithe?

 

But yes, the general "eh" factor would be that this has nothing to help the survivability issue. Which lately doesn't seem to be that much of an issue considering characters like Khârn can still rampage around entire maps just on foot.

 

As for "Cult characters", Khârn's it and while I can understand why he isn't in the Codex, it still puzzles me that he is not. But we do get the Skulltaker. So yay.

[Kastellan Kong]

Hmmm, why is this sub-forum always so negative?

 

Anyway, I pre-ordered the book. I'll hold off making any judgement until I've read it and tried it. I really hope this is the 1st of 4 cult books. :)

[Khornestar]

Skullcrushers are mortals (in the wishlist, berzerkers) on juggernauts.

 

Bloodcrushers are bloodletters on juggernauts, which is what we have in this codex.

[Kol Saresk]

Skullcrushers are mortals (in the wishlist, berzerkers) on juggernauts.

 

Bloodcrushers are bloodletters on juggernauts, which is what we have in this codex.

Ah. Did we ever access to those in 40k?

[Lagrath]

 

I find it completely laughable that the usual suspects are screaming "Bull:cuss!" before anybody held the new supplement in hand. I wonder when people will finally realize that 40k simply is a casual game. A look at the CS and the BL supps should have taught everybody what to expect. If you dislike so strongly what chaos has to offer, and primarily want to compete in tournaments, pick up another army already and stop making everybody sick with your bile. Thanks in advance.

I find it completely laughable that fanboys will defend whatever bone GW throws them and then blame other people for not being satisfied with the products GW produces. Because that's what this codex is, it's a product and it deserves to be reviewed as such. The rules are part of the product. The rules in this case can't be looked at in a vacuum, it needs to be compared to other rules out there. It turns out the rules are overall not well written, although there are some good intentions (I love the Blood God rule in itself, great way to put fluff into gaming terms). 

 

We should have expected after the CS and BL supps that any future chaos codex release would be mediocre as well? What? Why? You act as if GW does it on purpose. They're not purposefully writing bad rules I assume, there is no malice intent there. However, that doesn't mean they aren't responsible, they are. They apparantly don't seem to be fulfilling the demands of a lot of consumers and in these case the demands/expectations were fairly reasonable.

 

Stop acting like people are unreasonable for expecting decent rules which makes them able to enjoy games against other like minded gamers who play with a different army. As long as GW writes rules, they are responsible for them and they are just as much of a rules writing company as they are a miniature producer.

 

 

Yeah...It'll always be funny to me how willing people are to excuse away unnecessarily bad and lazy balance and rules design.

 

It's like some people will look at post-Andy Chambers era GW rules and go "You will give me incredibly overpriced, limited, and unimaginative options for my whole collection and I will like it!"

[Khornestar]

 

Skullcrushers are mortals (in the wishlist, berzerkers) on juggernauts.

 

Bloodcrushers are bloodletters on juggernauts, which is what we have in this codex.

Ah. Did we ever access to those in 40k?

 

 

No clue, not since I've been playing. Lord on juggernaut is all we got. Given the success of Thunderwolves you'd think they woulda jumped on the opportunity. Oh well.

[Sheesh Mode]

Not sure what you mean by fanboy Zhukov. I respect you for your tactical insight. I respect nobody for being negative nancies and cry babies, who think bitching is an art-form. It's simply no use to spit out bile and bring people down about things not even released. If you don't like a product, don't buy it. Instead buy stuff you like. That's what I did with BL and CS supp. That was my vote on these. I didn't whine and complain. I won't buy that release either since it doesn't address my interest in the hobby. Do I have to make people who are interested in a Khorne book miserable because my hopes and wishes are not fulfilled? No, I don't. What use is there in whining and complaining? None! Never changed anything and never will. GW doesn't give two :cusss about internet buzz. All you do is making this forum a worse place for people interested in the hobby. I doubt that is what you want. But then again, I don't now what it is you want.

 

Interesting. 

 

Rational discussion about a given topic is always useful to a group, particularly when the topic has an immediate effect on how the individuals involved will act in the future. It is curious to me that you associate this discussion with an attempt to make other people miserable, yet ignore the obvious disappointment and pain of those involved by disregarding it as "whining". 

 

I suggest that, if you only feel impelled to lecture us about our opinions you do not involve yourself in the discussion. 

 

 

Hmmm, why is this sub-forum always so negative?

 

It's not. Come around more often. 

[Targetlock]

you could always convert bezerkers on juggernaughts and just use the bloodcrusher rules? that is what I'm thinking of doing using the fantasy skullcrusher models. not sure how good bloodcrushers are though. and yeah I do find this thread negative, I'm looking at it as a fun opportunity for an entertaining if not that powerful force.

 

Skullcrushers are mortals (in the wishlist, berzerkers) on juggernauts.

Bloodcrushers are bloodletters on juggernauts, which is what we have in this codex.

Ah. Did we ever access to those in 40k?

 

sadly not.

[Khornestar]

you could always convert bezerkers on juggernaughts and just use the bloodcrusher rules? that is what I'm thinking of doing using the fantasy skullcrusher models. not sure how good bloodcrushers are though. and yeah I do find this thread negative, I'm looking at it as a fun opportunity for an entertaining if not that powerful force.

 

Haha, can't help but be negative with this comment but Bloodcrushers are pretty bad. I'm in the process of building a lot of 40k Skullcrushers because I am a fiend for juggernauts. I made some homebrew rules based on the Thunderwolves but with chaos options instead (no storm shields, etc.).

 

However, I think running them as bikers would work just fine too. A muuuch better unit than Bloodcrushers, IMO. 

[Iron Skull Mask]

Interesting. 

 

Rational discussion about a given topic is always useful to a group, particularly when the topic has an immediate effect on how the individuals involved will act in the future. It is curious to me that you associate this discussion with an attempt to make other people miserable, yet ignore the obvious disappointment and pain of those involved by disregarding it as "whining". 

 

I suggest that, if you only feel impelled to lecture us about our opinions you do not involve yourself in the discussion.

 

The whining and complaining going on here about a product not even released is everything but rational. Also, I didn't say that said whining and complaining was an attempt on making people miserable. From previous complaint debates we know that "making people miserable" simply is the consequence of exessive whining and complaining, as many people have stated that's what it's making them feel like. I'm one of those people. And I will disregard your kind suggestion and continue to speak my mind.

[Kol Saresk]

you could always convert bezerkers on juggernaughts and just use the bloodcrusher rules? that is what I'm thinking of doing using the fantasy skullcrusher models. not sure how good bloodcrushers are though. and yeah I do find this thread negative, I'm looking at it as a fun opportunity for an entertaining if not that powerful force.

 

 

 

Skullcrushers are mortals (in the wishlist, berzerkers) on juggernauts.

 

Bloodcrushers are bloodletters on juggernauts, which is what we have in this codex.

Ah. Did we ever access to those in 40k?

sadly not.

Huh. Can't say I'm surprised we didn't get something we've never had accessed to but I am surprised at the wishlisting for it.

[Sheesh Mode]

yeah I do find this thread negative, I'm looking at it as a fun opportunity for an entertaining if not that powerful force.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm still psyched for this book simply because I will be rewarded for my kitbashing and because I have wanted to break out the khorne stuff for awhile. I sincerely hope that they release another book for the blacklegion. 

 

 

The whining and complaining going on here about a product not even released is everything but rational.

 

I respectfully disagree with your unfair judgement of other peoples disappointment, and your later assertion that others must change their behavior to better suit your perspective. Particularly when the core of the book - it's rules and limitations - has already been revealed to us save for point costs. 

 

I maintain, as I have said earlier in this post, that this book gives a great opportunity for conversion and narrative play. However, Narrative play and competitive play need not be exclusive. I run a 'count-as' noise marine army fluffed as renegades on a penitence crusade against Leviathan in the Segmentum Tempestus, deemed heretics for their decision to invent technology ('count as' sonic weapons and Cycotroke rapiers) better suited for combat against tyranids.

 

The army functions well, looks good on the table, and leaves myself and my opponent satisfied with the end result no matter the conclusion. Lacking competitive ability does not preclude having FUN* but it does make the gamer's task of creating an enjoyable experience more difficult. In my opinion unnecessarily so. Also, I am probably going to go pretty crazy if Khârn the Betrayer gets discontinued for being old. 

[Kastellan Kong]

 

 Also, I am probably going to go pretty crazy if Khârn the Betrayer gets discontinued for being old. 

 

 

Discontinued as in model removed? Or discontinued as in no longer available in game?

 

Well if the model goes, I'm fairly sure a new one would replace it soon enough. I don't see him being removed from the game though, what with a new Black Library book about him every month or two.

 

Also, I've not seen any leaks or heard much about it, but people keep saying that we know what's in the Codex except for points costs. Anyone care to elaborate? (This comment wasn't aimed at Sheesh Mode) :)

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, we haven't seen all of the rules and limitations. We've seen what someone on Warseer(emphasis) has decided is all we need to know. Minus the points cost.

 

I point this out because if you go on Warseer right now(or at least last night) there were people talking of having Black Mace DPs in a daemonkin detachment and no one was correcting them.

 

Granted, it is warseer. But it carries the point across nicely.

 

As for the....... Comments. Iron Skull is right. Some are just the gnashing of teeth "why didn't we get this or that" or "oh no, we don't have Necron level of overpower." And you(Sheesh Mode) are right as well. Some of the less happy complaints are about actually issues, provided what we have been given is accurate. Which until March 28 when the ebooks are released, cannot be verified. Which I fine a little convenient all things considered.

[Khornestar]

Via Zion:

 

 

Forgive me if any of this has been posted already, I just wanted to help relay what's floating around right now.

 

From Iuchiban on Warseer (with consolidating of some things by me) :
First proof the person who posted all this has the codex:

http://i.imgur.com/5n4F8ww.jpg

 

 

The main rule of the codex is "Blood for the blood good":

You get "blood points for every unit you destroy and for every unit you are destroyed. Carachters slained in challenges generate blood points as well.

At the beginning of your turn you can spend those blood points (effects lasts till the beginning of your next turn)

1 Adamantium will

2 Rage + Furious Charge

3 Feel no pain

4 +1A

5 Summon 8 bloodletters of 5 Flesh hounds

6 Summon 3 Bloodcrushers or one Skull cannon

7 One carácter becomes a Demon Prince (LD test, if failed becomes a Spawn instead)

8 One carácter becomes a Bloodthirster (Same as above)

Once you spend a blood points you loose them all. For example if you have 5 and spend 4 for Feel No Pain, the left point is lost.

Addendum: Summoned units don't dissapear unless destroyed

 

Karn is NOT in the codex but Bezerkers are.

 

Artefacts are:

One Axe that you have to count the wounds infflicted with it:
1-2 +1S
3-4 Rampage
5-7 Sx2
8+ Instant Death
Effects are acumulative

One armour that gives you 3+, Feel no Pain and Eternal warrior

One Rune that gives bearer adamantium will, and you can explode it. If so, till your next turn, in a 24" bubble, all pyshic test get perils with any doublé

One Sword that gives you a blood point for every wound

One helmet that gives you fear and any 6 to hit generates an additional attack

One Axe that when bearer dies becomes a Bloodthirster but and the end your turn loses D3 wounds (Only inv saves allowed)

Addendums:
Axes are AP2 and Unwieldy +1S, the Sword is AP3

Bloodthirsters can not take these options.

Limit one Artefact per model.

Daemon Princes can take Artefacts.

 

 

Is it only units in the Khorne Daemonkin detachment that generate points when they die, or is it any unit in the controlling player's army?

Only the Demonkin units

 

Juggernauts for Zerkers?

Seriuosly? They can't.

 

There is Detachment similar to the Decurion: The Blood host

Mandatory: Slaughter cult (1 HQ, 2-8 Bezerkers, Bloodletters or Chaos Space Marines in any combination), 1-4 Possessed, 0-2 Spawn units, 0-2 Cultits

Benefits: Reroll Warlord trait and generates 1 Blood point every turn. When spending blood points you can for free get another bonus with less value than the first one.

Then optional:

Lord of Slaughter: 1 BT

Brazen Onslaught: 1-4 units of Termis, 2-4 units of Bloodcrushers (+1A in CaC if opponent has more models in that combat)

Khorne Bloodstorm: 2-4 units of Raptors, 1-4 units of Warp Talons, 0-1 Helldrake (+1S of HoW attacks)

Gorepack: 2-4 Chaos Bikers, 1-4 Fleshhounds (Fleshhouds get HoW, and Bikers reroll to wound their HoW attacks

Charnel Cohort: 1 HQ (not a BT), 2-8 Bloodletters, 1-4 Fleshhounds, 1-4 Bloodcrushers, 0-4 Skull Cannon (Fear tests with -2LD, if HQ is in reserves may reroll to enter the battle. Other units do not scatter if enter reserves at 6" of the HQ

 

Warlod traits

1. Warlord and all units at 12" reroll distance to assault

2. Warlord has Zealot

3. Warlord gets +1A

4. After killing and enemy carácter in a challenge, you get 2 Blood points instead of only 1.

5. Warlord gets preferred enemy

6. Warlord automatically passes the LD test if he is chosen for the 7. and 8. of the Blood points table. (Becoming a Daemon Prince or a BT)

RE: Rules changes

 

Lords of Skulls same

Bloodcrushers same

No modified FOC

Bezerker Champion and Aspiring champions have Access to the Axe of Khorne.

Spawns, possesed and helbrutes are all the same. Only thing is that they all have Mark of Khorne. Fiends are Daemons of Khorne.

There are no rewards for Daemons.

Termis in the codex do have the Mark of Khorne. That's all. The rest of the unit entry is the same.

[Daemons] have access to the loci.

[The Mark of Khorne is] in the point cost, but is not for free. For example a CSM is 15 points

RE: What's in the codex:

 

Units in the codex are:

HQ: Chaos Lord, Daemon Prince, Herald, Blood Throne, Skulltaker, 3x BT
Troops: Chaos cultists, CSM, Zerkers, Bloodletters
Elite: Possessed, Chaos Termis, Bloodcrushers
FA: Spawns, Rhino, Bikerts, Flesh hounds, Raptors, Talons, Heldrake
HS: Land Raider, Fiends, Defiler, Soul Grinder, Helbrute, Skull cannon
LoW: Lord of Skulls

Zerkers and CSM can take Rhinos

RE: What's different about this versus running a MoK CSM Army allied with Daemons:

 

The differences are The blood points mechanic and new Artefacts. By the way, I cannot see any rule preventing Daemons IC joining non-Daemon units. The BT are unique as well. The one with the two handed axe attacks with D Strength but at I 1.

Addendum: All daemon units have Fearless, instead of Instability.

 

 

So can you confirm that daemonic characters can join non daemonic unis (and vice versa) and whether they benefit from locus and other such rules.

Yes to both.

RE: Heralds in HQ slots:

 

Only one per HQ option

Looks like the Aspiring Champions having access to the Axe of Khorne is a pretty solid fact:

http://i.imgur.com/GO0Q8qP.jpg

 

[Kol Saresk]

Which again, is not verification. Unless there are PDF scans or photos of the pages I've missed.

 

EDIT: To explain better, what I mean by verification is that yes, the person has provided proof that they have the Codex but they haven't verified what's in it. So we're taking their word for it that what they say is in the Codex is actually what is in the Codex.

[Khornestar]

Which again, is not verification. Unless there are PDF scans or photos of the pages I've missed.

 

EDIT: To explain better, what I mean by verification is that yes, the person has provided proof that they have the Codex but they haven't verified what's in it. So we're taking their word for it that what they say is in the Codex is actually what is in the Codex.

 

 

Yep, fair enough. We'll have to wait and see. Honestly I'm hoping he's wrong about some stuff :D.

[Kol Saresk]

Same. Fluffwise, I can explain and see why there is no Khârn, but I still can't quite believe it.