Khorne Daemonkin - Discussion, Tactics, Background

[Lagrath]

 

Paragraph 1 of the DS rules (BRB 162) says:

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve (pg 135). When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive via Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."

 

They're in Reserves when THEY begin the game, not necessarily at the beginning of the game itself. Some DSing unit don't even exist at that point in time.

 

 

All the rules are written for the beginning of the actual game. That seems pretty clear to me from the wording, and from the fact that these rules were all written when the only things that weren't present at the start of the game were summoned units, which they made sure to cover separately as far as assaulting goes from DS goes. Plus, there is only one beginning to the game - for the rest of the game, it's just "entering play" or "arriving on the board" in other contexts. Also, as others have pointed out, you wouldn't need to clarify what happens with DSing summoned units if the text you're citing meant what you think it means.

 

It seems quite obvious to me that they way they wrote the C:KDK rules, they didn't restrict them with anything related to arriving from reserves. Who knows whether that was intentional.

[minionboy]

Paragraph 1 of the DS rules (BRB 162) says:

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve (pg 135). When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive via Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."

They're in Reserves when THEY begin the game, not necessarily at the beginning of the game itself. Some DSing unit don't even exist at that point in time.

All the rules are written for the beginning of the actual game. That seems pretty clear to me from the wording, and from the fact that these rules were all written when the only things that weren't present at the start of the game were summoned units, which they made sure to cover separately as far as assaulting goes from DS goes. Plus, there is only one beginning to the game - for the rest of the game, it's just "entering play" or "arriving on the board" in other contexts. Also, as others have pointed out, you wouldn't need to clarify what happens with DSing summoned units if the text you're citing meant what you think it means.

It seems quite obvious to me that they way they wrote the C:KDK rules, they didn't restrict them with anything related to arriving from reserves. Who knows whether that was intentional.

Precisely, otherwise a unit that wanted to use Gate of Infinity or Veil of Darkness would need to first start the game in Deep Strike Reserves, lol. Plus the author has shown that he knows that Summoning and Deep Strike Reserves are different things since he listed them separately in one of the objectives!

Can the blood throne join units? i also like the idea of them, but not the model. I was thinking of converting the warhammer chaos chariot

Nope, not an independent character.

[Nehekhare]

 

All the rules are written for the beginning of the actual game.

 

What do you base this assumption on? It seems crystal clear to me that the beginning of the game isn't mentioned or meant.

 

I agree that they should have clarified it for blood tithe (just look at the people questioning it regardless) and I get that people like to circumvent interceptor by pledging for the seemingly missing expression "reserves".

 

To me, it rather proves my point that when assuming otherwise, a BT summoned from blood tithe is treated differently than a BT summoned from daemonology.

It makes no sense at all that a veil arriving from reserves could be shot at, but not a veil arriving from somewhere on the board (via reserves).

 

ruleswise, what is generally stated to be synonymus must be treated as such in any special case. Otherwise bolters couldn't be fired because the profile doesn't say so.

 

The very first paragraph of the DS rules: 

1) literally states that no unit can DS without starting in reserves

2) mentions DS to be "sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves" (in a relative clause refering to - and only to - the expression "Deep Strike", nothing else in that sentence)

3) explicitly references the reserve rules on pg. 135

 

it couldn't be more precise.

 

On the other side, there is not a single mention of deep strike excluding reserves. none, nowhere. If it was possible, you'd expect at least ONE explication somewhere, wouldn't you?

This interpretation is based solely on an old FAQ from previous editions that does no longer apply, (unsupported) assumptions about designer intent and habitual misreading.  

 

That is because DS without reserves is an oxymoron. DS always necessitates reserves and any explicit mention is just repeating the general rule for clarity.

 

and last but not least: BECAUSE DS is a variant of "moving" onto the board from reserves, FMCs may change their flight mode from the default swooping at the start of it.

[Nehekhare]

 

otherwise a unit that wanted to use Gate of Infinity or Veil of Darkness would need to first start the game in Deep Strike Reserves, lol. Plus the author has shown that he knows that Summoning and Deep Strike Reserves are different things since he listed them separately in one of the objectives!

 

Precisely. Because gate and veil use the deep strike rules, they also both use the reserve rules which the DS rules refer to. After being removed from the game, they start the game in reserves to DS.

 

Btw, then using the same rules does not mean that veil is the same as gate, because: 

 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or may refer to:

• Inclusive or (Logical disjunction), a logical operation (e.g. "A or B or both")

[minionboy]

 

 

All the rules are written for the beginning of the actual game.

 

What do you base this assumption on? It seems crystal clear to me that the beginning of the game isn't mentioned or meant.

 

I agree that they should have clarified it for blood tithe (just look at the people questioning it regardless) and I get that people like to circumvent interceptor by pledging for the seemingly missing expression "reserves".

 

To me, it rather proves my point that when assuming otherwise, a BT summoned from blood tithe is treated differently than a BT summoned from daemonology.

It makes no sense at all that a veil arriving from reserves could be shot at, but not a veil arriving from somewhere on the board (via reserves).

 

ruleswise, what is generally stated to be synonymus must be treated as such in any special case. Otherwise bolters couldn't be fired because the profile doesn't say so.

 

The very first paragraph of the DS rules: 

1) literally states that no unit can DS without starting in reserves

2) mentions DS to be "sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves" (in a relative clause refering to - and only to - the expression "Deep Strike", nothing else in that sentence)

3) explicitly references the reserve rules on pg. 135

 

it couldn't be more precise.

 

On the other side, there is not a single mention of deep strike excluding reserves. none, nowhere. If it was possible, you'd expect at least ONE explication somewhere, wouldn't you?

This interpretation is based solely on an old FAQ from previous editions that does no longer apply, (unsupported) assumptions about designer intent and habitual misreading.  

 

That is because DS without reserves is an oxymoron. DS always necessitates reserves and any explicit mention is just repeating the general rule for clarity.

 

and last but not least: BECAUSE DS is a variant of "moving" onto the board from reserves, FMCs may change their flight mode from the default swooping at the start of it.

 

 

"Habitual misreading" not to be confused with your argument being based on taking a quote out of context, and eliminating the rest of the sentence that it's referring to? The only argument you've been able to present was an out of context quote then being used to manipulate an entire rule to backwards justify your side of the interpretation, lol.

 

GW uses Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserve very carefully and very differently, almost as if they say also think it's a different thing. There are many situations where a unit can Deep Strike that doesn't involve reserves, your assumptions require you to fill in huge gaps where you now assume any unit that is deep striking actually is coming form reserves, even if it didn't start the game in reserve. But then you argue that "start the game" is now subjective, and a unit can start in the game multiple times... These are huge leaps and massive assumptions, and a far more convoluted and flawed argument than accepting that the sentence referring to units starting the game in reserve and also deep striking being sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve, and that it doesn't apply to all instances of any unit deep striking being called Deep Strike Reserve.

 

Anyhow, lets stop this silly argument in a thread that's supposed to be about tactics. You and I both agree that you don't need to wait 2 turns until you can charge, albeit by totally different methods.

[Scribe]

Has anyone actually emailed GW for their interpretation of their own rules (which humorously enough have had conflicting answers to FAQ's in the past?)

[Sception]

What's the point? The customer support people have no more insight into this stuff than we do.

[Scribe]

Yeah, its tough to send an email over to another department.

[Rain]

Thing is, GW don't take this stuff that seriously. To them the answer is just "whatever, roll off a D6" or "decide with your opponent ahead of time" or whatever. 40k was never meant to be a competitive game, and GW has never had the type of well written, edited, and updated rules that a competitive game requires. Plus there are Necrons.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Thing is, GW don't take this stuff that seriously. To them the answer is just "whatever, roll off a D6" or "decide with your opponent ahead of time" or whatever. 40k was never meant to be a competitive game, and GW has never had the type of well written, edited, and updated rules that a competitive game requires. Plus there are Necrons.

Any game with winning and losing, by its very nature, is competitive. And making clear and concise rules does for a game does not mean it's a competitive game. It just shows that the company isn't run by clowns, like GW is.

[Rain]

Well, by that definition rock, paper, scissors and thumb war are competitive. 40k is of course more competitive than either of those, but it's still way below say, the X-Wing game by FFG or Starcraft 2 or, at the far end, chess.

[Scribe]

It doesnt need to be competitive to have an intent on the rules.

 

'Hey Phil, did you figure they could assault the turn after they drop down?'

[Cap'm Heckus]

....If only chess had better fluff.

[Sception]

I would be shocked if the cust serve people are in the same building as the developers, and even more shocked if they had any means of talking to them or messaging them what so ever. The best that could be hoped for is that there's a 'forward this question to official Q&A' button, and that the button doesn't actually forward to the recycle bin.

[Scribe]

Really? That would be surprising to you? Not in a bitter, jaded 'ha ya right!' kind of way, but you realistically dont expect people to be able to reach out to the Developers?

 

Thats legit mind boggling to me, as a corporate, publicly traded company employed, slave.

 

EDIT: To make it clear, GW isnt that big, and the Ivory Tower cannot be that well protected.

[RolandTHTG]

To get back on topic, and off GW bashing, Has anyone gotten more battles with the codex?

[Sception]

Really? That would be surprising to you? Not in a bitter, jaded 'ha ya right!' kind of way, but you realistically dont expect people to be able to reach out to the Developers?

Why would you think the GW mail room staff would be able to just phone up the developers whenever they please any more than the retail managers could? How many hundreds of questions do you think they get a day? And they have like, what, half a dozen actual rules writers these days? Heck, for a while the entire Q&A / rules question deal was outsourced to Black Library.

 

So no, I don't think any rules questions from random customer emails actually get to the developers. It's not even about "bashing", that's just not an efficient use of their time, and opens up a completely unnecessary channel for leaks. And their ivory tower absolutely is that protected. Rarely have I seen a game company so paranoid about leaks or so determined to try to keep a lid on absolutely everything until a week before release day.

 

It's like nat posting an article today about a customer service email reply implying fantasy wasn't going to round bases. Well, maybe it isn't, but if it were the customer service intern answering emails wouldn't hear about it any sooner than the rest of us.

[Adra'Melek]

Why does it have to be "just phone up the developes whenever they please" or "any means of talking to them"?

 

i've heard of this mythical concept of...the middle ground, where more than two possibilities exist and the extremes can be avoided.

[the jeske]

Thing is, GW don't take this stuff that seriously.

Is that why the rules cost so much, people keep being sent C&Ds and buying stuff not directly from GW is compared to stealing?

[Nehekhare]

 

"Habitual misreading" not to be confused with your argument being based on taking a quote out of context

 

yes, if you present not a single argument but a FAQ-ruling that doesn't apply anymore (and that you don't even quote), then you are misreading the rules out of habit.

 

As for my *three* arguments, taken directly from the *whole* of first paragraph of the DS rules:

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."

 

Please tell me how the fact that [you have to tell your opponent that a unit is going to DS when placing it in reserves] invalidates the relative clause generally stating that [Deep strike is sometimes called deep strike reserves].

 

please provide evidence why the general DS rules should be ignored in favor of your habitual reading that is based solely on previous editions of rules.

 

 

 

GW uses Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserve very carefully and very differently, almost as if they say also think it's a different thing. There are many situations where a unit can Deep Strike that doesn't involve reserves

 

Name one and provide proof that it doesn't invole reserves.

Otherwise "that's just, like, your opinion, man!"

 

What you're trying to mask as an argument is actual classic circular logic, the mother of all habitual fallacies.

 

you argue:

1) DS does not involve reserves because in some cases (veil, skies of blood, etc.), it does not involve reserves.

2) In those cases it does not involve reserves, because DS does not involve reserves. 

 

but what if it does?

 

 

btw why would "starting the game" in reserves be any more problematic than "entering play" from reserves?

Ongoing Reserves

If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.

 

Anyhow, lets stop this silly argument in a thread that's supposed to be about tactics. You and I both agree that you don't need to wait 2 turns until you can charge, albeit by totally different methods.

 

yeah, let's do that so you don't have to provide an argument.

[Kol Saresk]

So if we go by Nehekhare's interpretation of "starting the game", that means when we summon a unit, we summon it into Reserves, and then Deep Strike it from Reserves. After all, if starting the game is when the model joins the game, then no matter what, they have to start in Reserves, because that's what the rule says concerning Deep Strike Summoning, which is what we're doing here. Seems pretty clear cut. Granted, it goes against GW's game in their White Dwarf since they completely bypassed Reserves, but hey. Wouldn't be the first time a player knew better than GW. Am I right guys? :P

[Adra'Melek]

Kol, do you mean the short game outline thing? I didn't see anything that 'missed out' reserves. They didn't mention reserves but they didn't mention deepstriking either. At least that's in the 21st March edition.

[Kol Saresk]

Kol, do you mean the short game outline thing? I didn't see anything that 'missed out' reserves. They didn't mention reserves but they didn't mention deepstriking either. At least that's in the 21st March edition.

They summoned a squad of Bloodletters and a Bloodthirster through the Blood Tithe points. Which as we should all be aware of by now, is done through Deep Striking.

 

EDIT: Basically if Nehekhare is right, when you summon from the Blood Tithe, you have to put the unit you summon, into Reserves. And then Deep Strike from there. Which means rolling for them. Which is a rather mind-boggling interpretation of the rules since the daemons would very obviously never be touching Reserves. They would just enter the game and we would roll for scatter on the Deep Strike.

[Adra'Melek]

Ah, OK.

 

EDIT: Although it wouldn't need to mention reserves as they're an intrinsic part of deepstriking. Also, it says "immediately" so that would me you wouldn't need to roll.  If anything, due to the deepstriking rule saying 'you MUST be in reserse', the BftBG rule would need to specifically say that it's NOT reserves to counter-act it.

[Nehekhare]

 

EDIT: Basically if Nehekhare is right, when you summon from the Blood Tithe, you have to put the unit you summon, into Reserves. And then Deep Strike from there. Which means rolling for them. Which is a rather mind-boggling interpretation of the rules since the daemons would very obviously never be touching Reserves. They would just enter the game and we would roll for scatter on the Deep Strike.

 

 

Wrong. While you roll for units that were placed in reserves at the beginning of the game to "arrive" at the start of your turn, this is not the case here. Certain effects (like blood tithe, reserves on 4th turn, veil, etc.) specifically make you "arrive immediately", thus not having to roll for arrival (which OBVIOUSLY always happens from reserves).

 

I think it's rather mind-boggling to think about where ELSE deep striking units are supposed to be before being placed on the board if NOT in reserves - wherefrom would they arrive? How would it even be a move at all when it has no beginning (or in the case of veil teleportation: no place in between)?

 

It may be a technicality, but that's what the rules say. And it works.