Khorne Daemonkin - Discussion, Tactics, Background

[Scribe]

To be transparent here, I was one of those saying 'Why is this not Word Bearers'. Crimson Slaughter didnt need to be made up, the mechanics by and large could have been easily justified as Word Bearers, and still could.

 

Not to say CS shouldnt exist, its a fine addition to the game, but it didnt need to be made up, when a Legion could have been used.

[Rain]

 

 

the majority reaction is "They're dumb. This is a Word Bearers Codex."

Those same people have not read up enough on either if they are attempting to generalize the two together.

Believe me, we both share the same opinion on that. And yet, that opinion still exists.

 

 

What?! Both of you agree and yet some retain the temerity to continue voicing a contrary opinion? Surely you jest.

 

Seriously though, while the Crimson Slaughter fluff is okay (not a fan of the demonic voices/possession ex machina thing, but otherwise it's okay), the fact that GW went to the lengths of making up an entirely new faction to give a supplement to while existing Legion players have been asking for one for years is--tone deaf at best.

 

Oh and yes, Apostles and possessed are a Word Bearers thing, and have been long before they dreamed up the Crimson Slaughter or the Brazen Bloodborn Wrathbeasts of Slaughter. I made up that last one by combining a bunch of Chaosy trope-words so it's probably close to a real thing they came up with recently.

 

So yeah, is it bad that Crimson Slaughter got a supplement if viewed in a vacuum? No, but when viewed against the backdrop of much more long standing and important lore factions with existing followings 10+ years old, yeah it's bad, bordering on insulting. It's like triage, is it bad to fix Bob's broken arm? No, but you shouldn't let Fred bleed to death while you're doing it.

 

Oh and believe me, the writers don't care. This thing reeks of written by committee, to toe the current line and push someone acceptable out as quickly as possible without the need for extensive testing or revision. This is standard write-by-the-pound, writers get paid, writers don't care.

[Kol Saresk]

Except the background of the Word Bearers wouldn't fit the the theme mechanics. The theme was a warband that at any point in time, all of its troops would be possessed. The closest the Word Bearers get is when they were fielding the Gal Vorbak and even then, that was only a portion of each force, not the totality. The Crimson Slaughter however, were created to fit the theme and literally any in their number can and, if the battle lasts long enough, will be Possessed.

 

So while similar mechanics(easier access to Possessed; but not troops) would be useful to soecific portions of the Word Bearers, it still wouldn't fit the whole XVII. Just like the Khorne Daemonkin do not represent the whole of Khorne followers, but a very specific, overzealous portion that have dedicated their very lives to a specific pursuit.

 

So while I can see where you're coming from, I see very little evidence to support that the Crimson Slaughter Supplement should have been a Word Bearers Supplement.

[Rain]

Yeah except the army can't actually do that Kol. I mean, IF they had some rule that each turn you roll a D6 on a 6 the unit gains +1str, becomes a daemon, and rolls on the possessed table, then fine, okay, it's a "everyone can be possessed at any time" codex/theme which I agree, is new.

 

But that's not what it is, it's just a different (some would say better) possessed table, and as Word Bearers are generally considered the most devout followers of Chaos, with the closest connection to the gods, as well as the original possessed, that makes sense as a thing for them. Oh and yeah, possessed are troops, and that doesn't work for Word Bearers, why? Because it hasn't been done yet? They could have just as easily added a line that as Word Bearers first created the Gal Vorbak and have the most experience praying to the gods, etc. etc. they can field extra possessed. Especially as there is precedent of them fielding huge numbers of daemons, which they could hypothetically stick into their marines. Ultimately it's a theme thing, daemons/possessed and Apostles are the WB's thing, and improvements for those units were given to some new no-name, I don't even like Word Bearers, but even I'm annoyed.

 

Even all of that notwithstanding, a warband of possessed is certainly not a CS only thing fluff wise, it's just only them that get is as troops, just as only Dark Angels can field an army of Terminators, and yet any Loyalist chapter could fluff-wise field just their Terminator company if they wanted to.

[Kol Saresk]

Battle of Calth. 100,000 Word Bearers. Only 2,000 were Gal Vorbak. 1/50 of the entire attacking force. The Chapter of the Consecrated Iron. Full strength unknown. Only Possessed was Argel Tal. The Dropsite Massacre. 140,000 Word Bearers. Only 40 Gal Vorbak.

 

Dark Apostle. One Host of roughly 2,000 Word Bearers. About twenty Possessed. Dark Creed, a total of five Hosts with one at double strength, so roughly 6,000 Word Bearers. Only one squad of Possessed.

 

Crimson Slaughter. Full strength unknown. Literally every single Marine can become Possessed. Period. Once they join the Crimson Slaughter, they become "haunted".

 

So, if this was 3rd Edition when certain units were restricted, I'd say Word Bearers get restrictions lifted. Now, in 7th Edition. I'd argue cheaper Possessed an unique table and/or permanent upgrades. But not troops. If a XVII Warband is ever published as being mostly Possessed(above 55%) and it is ever published that the XVII Legion is like 49% Possessed Marines, then I will argue for Possessed as Troops.

 

Until then, as I said, the Crimson Slaughter were written to fit the theme. The theme was not written for the Word Bearers.

 

EDIT: Now, if someone tried to say it should have been a Beasts of Annihilation supplement, that I would agree simply because the Beasts are described as being mostly Possessed.

[Iron Skull Mask]

Saw a battlereport where the daemonkin defeated an Eldar force. They won like 12:4 in victory points but were almost tabled. How did the guys that actually played the codex fare in their games?

[incinerator950]

Right, so does this codex give opsec on top of the tithe and bonuses or no?

[Cheex]

Right, so does this codex give opsec on top of the tithe and bonuses or no?

The formations and detachment in the codex do not give ObSec, but that does not stop you from taking them in a CAD instead if you want the rule.

 

The Blood Tithe applies regardless of which kind of Detachment you take.

[incinerator950]

Right right.

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

Any fluff in the new book which points to older back ground ie Khorne also being the god of honour and martial prowess

[Kol Saresk]

Not really. Or if they did, it was really subtle.

 

Even Skulltaker's little blurb is

“Khorne’s executioner strides into battle with an unhurried gait, blood-hungry eyes sweeping the field for a worthy foe. Only once he has selected some mighty champion does Skulltaker quicken his pace, hacking down all who bar his path. As the Daemon’s massive hind claws pound the dirt, he looses a bellowing war cry, an unmistakable challenge that strikes his victim like a physical blow. Some flee in that moment, overcome by their fear of the brass-armoured apparition barrelling toward them. Such cowards receive a swift and ignominious death, as Skulltaker’s blade smashes them off their feet before they are trampled to bloody mulch. By comparison, those who stand their ground live a few moments longer, parrying frantically as the Daemon meets them in single combat. All thoughts of attack are swiftly driven from the victim’s thoughts as they realise they are fighting a battle not for honour or victory, but simple survival. Even this knowledge cannot save them; soon enough Skulltaker lives up to his name, and leaves another headless corpse in his wake.”

 

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Khorne Daemonkin.” Games Workshop Ltd, 2015-03-16. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

And the whole point of the Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirsters is that they go after champions in single combat as well, so I guess we can say "it was very subtly hinted."

[Allart01]

Let's put it this way:

Skulls:Khorne = Money:Beggar

so 500£ is yuppi! but lots of 1£ (potentially more than 500 times) will do just as well.

[Sheesh Mode]

 

 

 

the majority reaction is "They're dumb. This is a Word Bearers Codex."

Those same people have not read up enough on either if they are attempting to generalize the two together.

Believe me, we both share the same opinion on that. And yet, that opinion still exists.

 

 

What?! Both of you agree and yet some retain the temerity to continue voicing a contrary opinion? Surely you jest.

 

Seriously though, while the Crimson Slaughter fluff is okay (not a fan of the demonic voices/possession ex machina thing, but otherwise it's okay), the fact that GW went to the lengths of making up an entirely new faction to give a supplement to while existing Legion players have been asking for one for years is--tone deaf at best.

 

Oh and yes, Apostles and possessed are a Word Bearers thing, and have been long before they dreamed up the Crimson Slaughter or the Brazen Bloodborn Wrathbeasts of Slaughter. I made up that last one by combining a bunch of Chaosy trope-words so it's probably close to a real thing they came up with recently.

 

So yeah, is it bad that Crimson Slaughter got a supplement if viewed in a vacuum? No, but when viewed against the backdrop of much more long standing and important lore factions with existing followings 10+ years old, yeah it's bad, bordering on insulting. It's like triage, is it bad to fix Bob's broken arm? No, but you shouldn't let Fred bleed to death while you're doing it.

 

Oh and believe me, the writers don't care. This thing reeks of written by committee, to toe the current line and push someone acceptable out as quickly as possible without the need for extensive testing or revision. This is standard write-by-the-pound, writers get paid, writers don't care.

 

 

Why would they step on their own toes by getting in the way of Forge World's product line? Chaos Legion lists are solely the domain of the Horus heresy, and will not be seen till forgeworld is in a position to start producing miniatures and rules representative of the conflict on Terra. To say the 'writers don't care' is inaccurate, and an invalidation of the work that they do produce. Furthermore, the Wordbearers are much, much more than "possessed and Dark Apostles" just as the Crimson Slaughter are more than that as well. There is simply much more depth to the story than you are giving it credit for. 

 

Much the same can be said for the Khorne Daemonkin. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that this codex was built for theme, which is why Khârn and Skarbrand were not included. Skarbrand is the exile of Khorne, the dishonored one, and therefore not worthy of worship. Khârn is an individual, beholden to no band, nor any Daemon. He is not Daemonkin, but instead a living and moving Avatar of Khorne. 

 

It is similar to Ahriman, who serves the goals of Tzeentch without direct patronage to him. Where Khârn is a devout follower of Khorne, he still maintains his own motives and remains a blood thirsty wanderer. 

[Adra'Melek]

It [KDK] also specifically says "Every single life taken in anger increases the Blood God's power". Says nothing about honour or prowess.  Also suggests that Space Marines dispassionately dispatching foes doesn't feed Khorne.

 

Out of curiosity, when did Khorne become involved with honour and martial prowess? I can't remember anthing like that from Slaves to Darkness. Just blood and more blood.  I did take a long hiatus from 2nd to end of 5th so might have missed it.

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

It [KDK] also specifically says "Every single life taken in anger increases the Blood God's power". Says nothing about honour or prowess. Also suggests that Space Marines dispassionately dispatching foes doesn't feed Khorne.

 

Out of curiosity, when did Khorne become involved with honour and martial prowess? I can't remember anthing like that from Slaves to Darkness. Just blood and more blood. I did take a long hiatus from 2nd to end of 5th so might have missed it.

It was mentioned in the 7th ed WoC army book. So with the gods being the same in both games yoid assume stuff like that would transfer over

[Kol Saresk]

It [KDK] also specifically says "Every single life taken in anger increases the Blood God's power". Says nothing about honour or prowess.  Also suggests that Space Marines dispassionately dispatching foes doesn't feed Khorne.

 

Out of curiosity, when did Khorne become involved with honour and martial prowess? I can't remember anthing like that from Slaves to Darkness. Just blood and more blood.  I did take a long hiatus from 2nd to end of 5th so might have missed it.

I believe it was a natural evolution of the fact that(in fantasy) that most of his followers were warriors who had a martial code and that many of his daemons followed something similar. Single combat, only offering the skulls of those who were worthy while just "harvesting" the rest and when you get to 40K, it just translates. Like Karanak hunting down those who break with Khorne's favor, or Skulltaker hunting down the greatest champions in the enemy army. Or the Wraths of Khorne as I pointed out earlier.

[Adra'Melek]

So they've actually gone back to the old old stuff where Khorne is just interested in blood and skulls. He doesn't care who dies as long as they die bloody.  I just had a look at my slaves to Darkness and some of the phrases used seem to have almost been lifted out directly (which is good in my opinion, Slaves to Darkness is my go to book on Khorne, I shall even be using the Daemon name generator to give my daemons names).

 

EDIT: Although there is the bit Kol references regarding the Bloodthristers going for champions. Maybe their death shines a bit brighter in the warp. But it doesn't matter if they killed in one-on-one combat, or pulled down by a mob, etc.

[Slayer le Boucher]

I'm the only also dissapointed that there is no Slaughterfiend-esque kind of formation with 1-3 Defilers and 0-3 Maulerfiends?

 

that would have made a really cool addition for the army i think.

 

I mean there is nothing more Khornate and crazy then a Zerker riding a Defiler or a Maulerfiend as a mount...

 

mmmh...gonna ask if my friends would let me do it, i mean its an old Apocalypse Formation, it can easely be modified to fit 7th ed...

[totgeboren]

Except the background of the Word Bearers wouldn't fit the the theme mechanics. The theme was a warband that at any point in time, all of its troops would be possessed. The closest the Word Bearers get is when they were fielding the Gal Vorbak and even then, that was only a portion of each force, not the totality. The Crimson Slaughter however, were created to fit the theme and literally any in their number can and, if the battle lasts long enough, will be Possessed.

 

So while similar mechanics(easier access to Possessed; but not troops) would be useful to soecific portions of the Word Bearers, it still wouldn't fit the whole XVII. Just like the Khorne Daemonkin do not represent the whole of Khorne followers, but a very specific, overzealous portion that have dedicated their very lives to a specific pursuit.

 

So while I can see where you're coming from, I see very little evidence to support that the Crimson Slaughter Supplement should have been a Word Bearers Supplement.

 

I was agreeing with you for a while, but then I got to thinking of the FW WB rules. You can give most of the 'core' WB squads Dark Channelling, which is more or less 'Possession light', and they also have access to their extra-beefy Possessed.

 

The CS Supplement would have looked different had it been a WB supplement and not a CS supplement, but it would probably not have been vastly different. But it is definitely not a WB supplement, just as the SW codex is not a WE codex. Both can stand in for the other in a pinch.

 

Personally I don't use the CS supplement for my WB because it makes Possessed even worse than what they are in the basic book. I love Possessed, always have, but making them worse when they are already at the bottom just removes any justification to take them at all.

[Teetengee]

 

They've made it overly complicated nowadays, formations, detachments, combined arms detachments, battle forged, unbounded, just a headache. Atm my force has everything from the slaughtercult apart from the possessed, but I can make some of them. Do you think it's worth it using the Blood Host? I'm going to have a 1.6k game this weekend against two opponents and I'm not sure whether to use it or not or just make a normal list.

It's no more complicated than the 5 alternate Force Org Charts and 19(?) Rites of War from Forgeworld. And this is literally no different from that.

 

First, do you want to use a Force Org Chart for your entire army? If yes, Battle-Forged. If not, Unbound. If you pick Unbound, great. You're done. Just make sure you don't go over the points cap.

 

If you go Battle-Forged, do you want to use a normal Force Org Chart? That's a CAD. It can be your primary or allied army, and because it is made using the normal chart, ot has Onjective Secured.

 

Do you want to use a formation? Great, because they're basically pre-made armies. As long as you have the minis, you're good to go.

 

And now, we have Formation Force Org Charts. You take the required Core formation(pre-made army) and then whatever auxillary and command formations you want.

 

Now, Formations and FFOs will have their own unique rules. For example, the Blood Host gives you an extra BT point. The Gorepack has preferred enemy(psyker). And so on. This similar to the CAD, which instead of a Fear modifier or re-rolling your Warlord trait, it gives you Objective Secured.

 

 The bit in red above isn't quite accurate. Unbound lists still can use formations, just not other types of detachments. Basically, if you want to gain bonuses for a detachment that isn't a formation, all other models you use must also be in detachments and no model can be in more than one detachment.

 

Objective secured is a bonus provided by the combined arms and allied detachments.

[Dragonlover]

Saw a battlereport where the daemonkin defeated an Eldar force. They won like 12:4 in victory points but were almost tabled. How did the guys that actually played the codex fare in their games?

 

Lost 17-3, but it was the one where you generate a card for each Objective you control, and I'm historically naff at that one. Also his deck was much kinder than mine.

 

Dragonlover

[Adra'Melek]

@totgeboren, only 1/6 Dark Channelling is possessed (Daemon), isn't it? Otherwise it's things like Zeolot and Furious Change (going off memory).  So 1/6 of some units in the Word Bearers army are possessed (on top of the Elite Gal Vorbak)

[Allart01]

I have a problem understanding the foc.

If I want to use the Slaughtercult as my main FOC, but I also want to put my berserkers in a land raider (which is not an option in the Slaughtercult)... what should I do?

Do I have to take a normal FOC aswell (so another hq and two troops + the land raider)?

Also, can I put in it the Berserkers from the Slaughtercult or they have to come from the same detachment?

[Teetengee]

I have a problem understanding the foc.

If I want to use the Slaughtercult as my main FOC, but I also want to put my berserkers in a land raider (which is not an option in the Slaughtercult)... what should I do?

Do I have to take a normal FOC aswell (so another hq and two troops + the land raider)?

Also, can I put in it the Berserkers from the Slaughtercult or they have to come from the same detachment?

You can put them in the other detachment's vehicles, as long as they are battle brothers. However, the land raider cannot be included in the slaughtercult as it is not an option for that detachment.

 

(is the slaughtercult a detachment or a formation?)

[Khornestar]

You might as well make it an unbound army and just bring a Land Raider, IMO. You didn't have objective secured on those troops in the Slaughtercult, and it's not like you're spamming Riptides or something.