Starting out: Rangers or Vanguard?

[Kilofix]

Don't underestimate Rangers sniping the heavy weapon dude thus giving your Onagers more free reign.

[Yodhrin]

Rangers are a Relentless, Move Through Cover unit with rapid-fire guns. If you look at that combination and conclude they should be stationary at maximum range, you may need to consider an upgrade of the old quantum bioware. They're much better kept mobile in the mid-range.

 

Vanguard can hurt anything, but you usually have better options for high toughness targets. Against the kind of targets you really want them to be shooting, at the range these units should be, the damage output of Vanguard is typically only a couple of wounds higher than Rangers. Neither unit is going to be "deleting" Space Marines, but while the Vanguard will kill a few more bolters, the Rangers have a decent chance of killing a grav-cannon.

 

Rad-saturation is good, but don't expect to have much of a squad left afterwards. The Rangers' Move Through Cover, and the fact you have no reason to get them into close combat, makes them much more survivable.

 

Codex Skitarii has great internal balance, I wouldn't leave home without some of both. Vanguard for the higher average damage output and synergy with the assault units, Rangers for resilience and sniping.

 

I'm not a fan of automatically maxing out the special weapons on either squad. When you consider the quality of their basic weapons, they're very expensive upgrades that don't do anything you can't get elsewhere in your army in dedicated squads.

 

You will note that the deletion comment was specifically in reference to non-Marine targets. My point was to illustrate that against 5+ hordes Vanguard are flat out better, against 4+ I'd call it a wash as Vanguard still have a reasonable chance to cripple the enemy but the Rangers can reliably remove their specials, and against Marines the Rangers have a marginal benefit because they can force saves to be taken on specials but either way you're still targeting Marines so neither is going to do fantastically well on average.

 

At the end of the day against Marines Rangers are just shooting Bolters. They get Precision Shots and extra range, the Vanguard get Rad Poisoning and more shots, they both have a 4+ save & budget brand FNP - in most scenarios there's not a lot between them, and by no means are Rangers objectively bad, they're just not as good as Vanguard because while both have similar average damage output against enemy infantry and both have the same defences, Vanguard can apply their damage output to a wider range of targets and have a greater potential damage output thanks to Rad, and are marginally cheaper naked.

 

I don't have any problems with losing Skitarii because that's what they're for; they're expendable, a resource, they exist only to die, all that matters is they do what I need them to do first, whether that's decimating enemy horde units or surviving in CC just long enough to make it easier for my Sicarians to kill enemy elites.

 

I'll happily use Rangers in theme lists without feeling like I'm crippling myself, they're not Electropriests, but I can't pretend I wouldn't be better off taking Vanguard.

[banis]

I have only had one playtest sofar.. But there the vanguard did nothing but get a wolfstar to the face while the rangers did great hiding in some ruins and destorying razorbacks and rhinons.

 

Have anyone found a good way off making their own arc rifles yet?

[Reyner]

If you go for a more Dark Mechanicus look then I'm sure there are some Skaven parts you could make use of - all the warpstone gear and they have some Weapon teams don't they? 

[Vel'Cona]

If you decide to get Kataphron Servitors and go for Destroyers (the better option), the Heavy Arc Rifles (from the Breachers) can actually convert reasonably smoothly into arm mounted or "bazooka" like Arc Rifles, though it can take some time to get them to match up and the size difference may annoy some modelers.  I'm going to give this a try myself as a cost saving measure going forward.

[Kilofix]

I have only had one playtest sofar.. But there the vanguard did nothing but get a wolfstar to the face while the rangers did great hiding in some ruins and destorying razorbacks and rhinons.

Have anyone found a good way off making their own arc rifles yet?

Have you considered using or modifying:

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Horus_Heresy/Legiones_Astartes/Space_Marine_Legion_Army_List/Legion_Troops/Legion_Tactical_Support_Squad/VOLKITE_CALIVER_SET.html

 

http://www.anvilindustry.co.uk/The-Armoury/Ion-Rifle

 

http://puppetswar.eu/product.php?id_product=20

[Cactus]

Kilofix, you might want to check that Puppetswar link. I don't see how a Hutt in a waistcoat is a suitable alternative for arc rifles! :-P

[Targetlock]

through playtesting, I think I prefer vanguards over rangers, simply due to their great guns and the amount of shots and wounds they can generate, plus omnispexes in each squad. its just special weapons and alpha loadouts im trying to figure out.

[Marshal Ommadon]

Speaking of Alpha load outs....  When taking a War Convocation how would you equip your Alphas?  Taser Goad and Pistol?  Arc Maul and Pistol?  Or would you still just keep the stock weapons?

 

Granted points are not an issue, my question is more performance based.

 

Like the Arc Maul vs. Taser Goad.  In one hand the Arc Maul seems nice AP4, Concussive, and Haywire but Alphas aren't exactly hunting to get into melee.  Would the Maul be worth it or should you take the Taser Goad (same + to S but no AP) and hope for extra Taser hits?

[munocat]

I think the arc maul is to much $$$ to bring a melee, for the use it will get.

[Marshal Ommadon]

Again I'm using a War Convocation so points don't matter lol!

[Vel'Cona]

Vanguard really only want special weapons if they're riding allied transports; if they're walking, Vanguard tend to take deadly enemy attention if they carry Arc Rifles or Plasma Calivers.  That said, if you're playing War Convocation you had might as well deck them out.

 

As for the Alpha, if you're playing a standard Maniple then it's in your best interest to keep them cheap.  For Vanguard, I think the simple Taser Goad has plenty of punch (especially stacked with Rad Saturation) and you'll want a backup pistol to get the most of this.  Arc Pistols are obviously useful for anti-armor work, but the cost is prohibitive so the Phosphor Blast Pistol is a great secondary choice, especially if it actually does a wound (don't forget to fire it first!).  For Rangers, I'd never bother upgrading the Alpha as he wants his rifle in 90% of situations and he honestly shouldn't be getting close enough to punch or pistol things in either case!  The only non-weapon wargear I'd consider is the Refractor Field; it's a bargain at Meltabomb cost, but only for a tooled up Vanguard Alpha.  The other options are either too expensive for what they do (Digital Weapons) or too risky (Conversion Field).

[ONDIG]

NOOB HERE.NOT SURE IF THIS THREAD IS CLOSED BUT GONNA ADD MY 2 CENTS ANYWAYS.CURRENTLY TINKERING W/ SMALL SKITARII FORCE COMPOSED OF  AN ONAGER(E BEAMER+H STUBBER+MANIULATOR) 10 MAN RANGERS(X2 T ARQUBUSES+OMNISPEX) AND 2 5MAN SQUADS VANGUARD(P.CALIVER+ARC RIFLE)ONLY PLAYED 1 GAME SO FAR W/ DE ALLIES.VS DAEMONKIN. TIED.PRETTY HAPPY W/ THEIR PERFOMANCE OVERALL.I THINK IN THE FUTURE THE VANGUARD WILL SERVE AS CAMPER/COUNTER ASSAULT AND LET THE RANGERS ROAM FREE (MOVETHRUCOVER+RELENTLESS)SHOULD ALLOW THEM TO PULL SHOTS THAT I MISSED OUT ON KEEPIN EM IN COVER LIKE THEY WERE TAU.

[Terminus]

Again I'm using a War Convocation so points don't matter lol!

True enough, but then you are building a model dedicated just for that formation. Convocation Vanguard don't have access to allied transports, so it will take them longer to get in range for those pistols as well. That being said, I have two Vanguard alphas with tasers/arc pistols (in my arc rifle squads who borrow drop pods) and the plasma caliver squad with Taser/Phosphor (although I only really use the all caliver squad in Convocation). I like Tasers with Vanguard because they are the cheapest option, -1T and +2S combine to let you wound most things on a 2+, and you get 3 attacks with additional zaps when you roll 6s.

 

Vanguard really only want special weapons if they're riding allied transports; if they're walking, Vanguard tend to take deadly enemy attention if they carry Arc Rifles or Plasma Calivers.  That said, if you're playing War Convocation you had might as well deck them out.

 

As for the Alpha, if you're playing a standard Maniple then it's in your best interest to keep them cheap.  For Vanguard, I think the simple Taser Goad has plenty of punch (especially stacked with Rad Saturation) and you'll want a backup pistol to get the most of this.  Arc Pistols are obviously useful for anti-armor work, but the cost is prohibitive so the Phosphor Blast Pistol is a great secondary choice, especially if it actually does a wound (don't forget to fire it first!).  For Rangers, I'd never bother upgrading the Alpha as he wants his rifle in 90% of situations and he honestly shouldn't be getting close enough to punch or pistol things in either case!  The only non-weapon wargear I'd consider is the Refractor Field; it's a bargain at Meltabomb cost, but only for a tooled up Vanguard Alpha.  The other options are either too expensive for what they do (Digital Weapons) or too risky (Conversion Field).

Agreed on Ranger alpha keeping his gun. The conversion field is actually not that bad if you keep the leader in the middle of the unit, since his unit automatically passes, but I'd only take it on Vanguard or the Sicarian units.

 

My only problem is the slowly dawning realization that the best option is always arc rifle, even when points don't matter.

[Vel'Cona]

It's hard to beat rapid fire Haywire weapons.  At 15 points each, they're comparable to Grav weapons cost wise, though with a focus on vehicle destruction.  They also synergize well with either Rangers or Vanguard, since they're still fine for shooting at infantry (S6 is nothing to sneeze at) but they give Skitarii that extra ability to whittle down enemy vehicles regardless of AV.  The TA has rapidly showed itself to be somewhat underpowered and certainly overpriced, to say nothing of the ridiculous price tag on Plasma Calivers.  That pretty much leaves the Arc Rifle as the hot choice, especially for MSU Vanguard or full size DP Alpha Strike Vanguard.

[mmimzie]

I was wondering if you could just skip the pistol in the alpha. I mean sure you get an extra melee Track, but couldn't you just have that sick fancy melee weapon and a sexy rad carbine. Best of the ranges world with a taste of that melee action.

[Vel'Cona]

That's a good point.  I don't know if it's worth the extra attack for the Taser Goad, since it generates more attacks with its own rule.  That said, if you're plumping for a power sword or Arc Maul, you should definitely be paying for a pistol to get the most from those weapons.

[Terminus]

I frankly wouldn't even bother with a melee upgrade if all models still came with a close combat weapon and giving the alpha a pistol still gave him +1 attack. That extra arc shot is what you're really after. The fact that the Taser Goad generates more attacks is all the MORE reason to want an extra die to roll. To be successful in pretty much any miniature game, you have to emphasize your strengths to be even stronger and therefore overwhelm the opponent.

It's hard to beat rapid fire Haywire weapons. At 15 points each, they're comparable to Grav weapons cost wise, though with a focus on vehicle destruction. They also synergize well with either Rangers or Vanguard, since they're still fine for shooting at infantry (S6 is nothing to sneeze at) but they give Skitarii that extra ability to whittle down enemy vehicles regardless of AV. The TA has rapidly showed itself to be somewhat underpowered and certainly overpriced, to say nothing of the ridiculous price tag on Plasma Calivers. That pretty much leaves the Arc Rifle as the hot choice, especially for MSU Vanguard or full size DP Alpha Strike Vanguard.

See, even if we disregard the fact that the arc rifle is the only reasonably costed special weapon the Skitarii have, even when you can go full retard and take 3 free plasma culivers (that don't get hot) for your Vanguard and 3 free Transuranic Arquebus for your Rangers, I'm finding I still rather just have the arc rifles. The Cybernetica/Skitarii/Knights just provide a ridiculous amount of options for killing stuff that dies to plasma (MEQ/TEQ/monstrous creatures).

edit: one small exception, if you're okay with making the Ranger Alpha your warlord, preferred enemy makes the arquebus much more capable.

I'm basically finding myself trying out three variants of Vanguard

The Kitchen Sink

10 Vanguard, 3 Arc Rifles, Omnispex, Alpha with Arc Pistol/Taser

Now this unit comes to 175 points, which is a bit painful for me for a T3 foot-slogging unit with 18" range on their guns, even if they do have FNP6+ and a scout move. It is, of course, an easy choice in the Convocation, since you can pile on a Conversion Field, Digital Lasers and a Relic, and still only pay 100 points for the unit.

Drop Pod Joyriders

8 Vanguard, 2 Arc Rifles, Omnispex, Alpha with Arc Pistol/Taser

Now the above kitchen sink unit works great in a drop pod, but with a total unit cost of >200 points now, I get hesitant. At 177 points WITH the drop pod, I feel a lot more comfortable with this unit, although I do really miss the extra 2 arc shots (though not as much as I'd miss 33 points). I am really tempted to throw in Conversion field, since the immediate proximity means the Alpha has to put it a lot of work.

Poor Bloody Infantry

10 Vanguard, 3 Arc Rifles, Omnispex

When using them outside of Convocation or Drop Pods, this seems like the best optionThe pistol/taser seem like a waste when you'll probably go several turns without being close enough to shoot it, and likely even longer before you get to swing that goad. At 155 points, this is still a really economical unit with a lot of punch. I haven't had an opportunity to actually use this configuration more than once, and the entire time I was wondering if they should have been rangers instead. Yeah, then you're paying 175 points for a foot-slogging unit again, but at least they have 30" guns and move through cover. I still don't think Rangers should have been 2 points extra (maybe 1, maybe), but oh well.

[Vel'Cona]

Now if only there was an easy way to get more arc rifles.  I'm trying to figure out a method to convert the Heavy Arc Rifles from my extra Kataphron bits onto some Skitarii . . .

[DeStinyFiSh]

Now if only there was an easy way to get more arc rifles.  I'm trying to figure out a method to convert the Heavy Arc Rifles from my extra Kataphron bits onto some Skitarii . . .

 

There are dozens of bitz shops on the net, maybe the prices are ok?

[Vel'Cona]

Man, my post got deleted.

So far, I've found Arc Rifles to be the hot ticket from the Skitarii box set. Like Astartes Grav Guns, they tend to go for 6-8 bucks each thru bits traders and Ebay. It's prohibitively expensive. Still better than the prices I've seen for new Grav Cannons, though!