Starting out: Rangers or Vanguard?

[Zembar]

My entire army is a hard hat area...

[CommodusXIII]

I'm just about finished with my first squad of Vanguard - just need to base them tonight!  I wasn't at all impressed with the leaked art that first appeared, but I'm now utterly in love with the kit.  Something about those helmets, and all of the glowing electrified/radiated surfaces...

[Marshal Ommadon]

Just thought I'd throw this idea out there, not sure if this is the right sub-forum but here goes:

 

I've seen lots of Skitarii lists that feature at least one Knight Titan, but what about the new toy GW gave us in the Plasma Obliterator?  What do you guys think about nixing the Knight Titan (assuming I'm taking one) and dropping one of these bad boys in its place?  Here is what I was thinking, Plasma Obliterator is just under 250 points (cheaper than a Knight), has a weapon on par with the 2 GW Knight variants, and it's an AV14 4HP 20 man building to hide my Rangers in.  It also has 4 Fire Points allowing 8 guys to shoot from it.

 

This can free up some points to maybe take another Dunecrawler for some anti-air?

 

What do you guys think?

[CommodusXIII]

I would love to, if the Obiliterator hadn't sold out both times I tried to buy it...

[Ordo Machinum]

Just thought I'd throw this idea out there, not sure if this is the right sub-forum but here goes:

I've seen lots of Skitarii lists that feature at least one Knight Titan, but what about the new toy GW gave us in the Plasma Obliterator? What do you guys think about nixing the Knight Titan (assuming I'm taking one) and dropping one of these bad boys in its place? Here is what I was thinking, Plasma Obliterator is just under 250 points (cheaper than a Knight), has a weapon on par with the 2 GW Knight variants, and it's an AV14 4HP 20 man building to hide my Rangers in. It also has 4 Fire Points allowing 8 guys to shoot from it.

This can free up some points to maybe take another Dunecrawler for some anti-air?

What do you guys think?

Time for a 'Starting Out 5: Plasma Obliterators & Relay Pipes' thread?

This is certainly something to consider. Would you leave a dunecrawler or two as guardians for it? Or some 5-man squads to run interference?

I would love to, if the Obiliterator hadn't sold out both times I tried to buy it...

I was very sad when I missed it the first time...

...but I was much quicker the second time.

I haven't opened it yet, but when I do I want to measure it and see how much trouble kit-bashing a second one would be from various model terrain.

R.

[MithrilForge]

Looks at rashbold with an intense Jealous look... but then realises its the blessing of the omnissiah that gave him the Plasma obliterator...

Mithril

on a side note taking one of those seems like a massively good idea...it conjurs the image of the Ion cannon on Hoth firing at the Fleet... choom choom.... first Maniple away

[Aethernitas]

Not a fan of the obliterator as it is extremely overcosted for how easily you can get cover against a immobile gun and the ease a fortification gets destroyed.

[Marshal Ommadon]

I have one too (obviously) and I'm really thinking about dropping my Knight for my Obliterator.  Biggest reason is my list has no anti-air.

 

@Rashbold - Just want to give you a heads-up I was not happy with how the kit came together.  The floor section is divided into 4 parts that tuck under the outer walls (you will see) and then get glued to the middle shaft; then the 4 parts get glued together completing the floor.  Man was there a lot of gaps and mis-alignments.  Not GWs finest but it does look great when put together (even with the aforementioned problems)!

[MithrilForge]

Not a fan of the obliterator as it is extremely overcosted for how easily you can get cover against a immobile gun and the ease a fortification gets destroyed.

Well... i have a Knight and will of course use it with my Skitarii...but the knight doesn't hold 10 - 20 rangers ... and you know it might even be "FUN" to use...it could be a real thematic game of your skitarii defending a forge worlds newly designed Cannon.etc etc... this game isn't Always about winning.....

Although, if all you play against are Beardy cheese & whine guys who Smell undesirable,can recite the McDonalds fast food list off by heart(in proper order) and aren't even remotely looking like being added to your Friend's list... then i totally understand the cut throated approach to list building

Mithril

[Aethernitas]

Well... i have a Knight and will of course use it with my Skitarii...but the knight doesn't hold 10 - 20 rangers ... and you know it might even be "FUN" to use...it could be a real thematic game of your skitarii defending a forge worlds newly designed Cannon.etc etc... this game isn't Always about winning.....

Although, if all you play against are Beardy cheese & whine guys who Smell undesirable,can recite the McDonalds fast food list off by heart(in proper order) and aren't even remotely looking like being added to your Friend's list... then i totally understand the cut throated approach to list building

So me not beeing a fan of a model and it's rules somehow gave you the impression I'm a WAAC guy and also - by your snarky logic - "a beardy cheese & whine guy who smells undesirable"? Thats so wrong on so many levels but who am I talking about political correctness on the interwebs...

[Tiger9gamer]

Not a fan of the obliterator as it is extremely overcosted for how easily you can get cover against a immobile gun and the ease a fortification gets destroyed.

Well... i have a Knight and will of course use it with my Skitarii...but the knight doesn't hold 10 - 20 rangers ... and you know it might even be "FUN" to use...it could be a real thematic game of your skitarii defending a forge worlds newly designed Cannon.etc etc... this game isn't Always about winning.....

Although, if all you play against are Beardy cheese & whine guys who Smell undesirable,can recite the McDonalds fast food list off by heart(in proper order) and aren't even remotely looking like being added to your Friend's list... then i totally understand the cut throated approach to list building

Mithril

As a mcdonalds frycook I feel offended somehow.

disregarding this piece of scrapcode, I think any fortification would be fun to use, like the Firestorm redebout or the Aquilla action playset. heck make a fortress of redemption a 'fortress of knowledge' and you can make a cool thematic list.

[Marshal Ommadon]

To relate this to the topic (Rangers and Vanguards), have you guys thought about using Fortifications (namely those with a "troop capacity")? 

 

Since we lack any transports ourselves and sometimes Allying to get a Transport can start racking up the points (having to buy an HQ and 2 Troops just to get the Transport) I feel like some Fortifications can be a real boon for us and these two units in particular. 

 

What do you guys think?

[Ordo Machinum]

Looks at rashbold with an intense Jealous look... but then realises its the blessing of the omnissiah that gave him the Plasma obliterator...

Mithril

on a side note taking one of those seems like a massively good idea...it conjurs the image of the Ion cannon on Hoth firing at the Fleet... choom choom.... first Maniple away

Blessing... ? Maybe, but I could also have gotten 2 more boxes of vanguard/rangers or 2 more ironstriders or 2 more sicarians...

Ah, but I'm going to get those others anyway and there was only 1 plasma obliterator. The aforementioned Hoth reference was also a consideration.

Not a fan of the obliterator as it is extremely overcosted for how easily you can get cover against a immobile gun and the ease a fortification gets destroyed.

This is why I like these discussion threads. All hard data is relevant at some stage.

The Skitarii codex formations all get into some big point totals and I don't think I would use it in any small game (unless I had a banner raised above it saying 'Oh Holy Magnet of Fire' with a crimson circle surrounding a crimson dot on it).

On a themed battlefield it may be useful as an aesthetic (heretekal thought = damaged/destroyed fortification as an objective for a game).

It certainly shouldn't be ignored by an opponent, but then again it may give other skitarii troops a buffer for them to act while the obliterator dies valiantly for them. I'm not sure, but it may be interesting to play a few rounds with it.

I have one too (obviously) and I'm really thinking about dropping my Knight for my Obliterator. Biggest reason is my list has no anti-air.

@Rashbold - Just want to give you a heads-up I was not happy with how the kit came together. The floor section is divided into 4 parts that tuck under the outer walls (you will see) and then get glued to the middle shaft; then the 4 parts get glued together completing the floor. Man was there a lot of gaps and mis-alignments. Not GWs finest but it does look great when put together (even with the aforementioned problems)!

Thanks for the heads up. I'll be mindful while assembling it. I still have my other troops to tackle first.

Not a fan of the obliterator as it is extremely overcosted for how easily you can get cover against a immobile gun and the ease a fortification gets destroyed.

Well... i have a Knight and will of course use it with my Skitarii...but the knight doesn't hold 10 - 20 rangers ... and you know it might even be "FUN" to use...it could be a real thematic game of your skitarii defending a forge worlds newly designed Cannon.etc etc... this game isn't Always about winning.....

Although, if all you play against are Beardy cheese & whine guys who Smell undesirable,can recite the McDonalds fast food list off by heart(in proper order) and aren't even remotely looking like being added to your Friend's list... then i totally understand the cut throated approach to list building

Mithril

Ah, the battlefield is nothing if not a smorgasbord of delights to be sampled. If I cannot sit at the table and give my opponent something to chew on while he does likewise, than I'm doing it wrong. Every army has its strengths and weaknesses. The trick is in the tactical recipe one can serve up.

Well... i have a Knight and will of course use it with my Skitarii...but the knight doesn't hold 10 - 20 rangers ... and you know it might even be "FUN" to use...it could be a real thematic game of your skitarii defending a forge worlds newly designed Cannon.etc etc... this game isn't Always about winning.....

Although, if all you play against are Beardy cheese & whine guys who Smell undesirable,can recite the McDonalds fast food list off by heart(in proper order) and aren't even remotely looking like being added to your Friend's list... then i totally understand the cut throated approach to list building

So me not beeing a fan of a model and it's rules somehow gave you the impression I'm a WAAC guy and also - by your snarky logic - "a beardy cheese & whine guy who smells undesirable"? Thats so wrong on so many levels but who am I talking about political correctness on the interwebs...

Don't take it to heart. It's always so difficult to 'see' the other person by just reading words on a screen. As I said before, I enjoy the dialogue. I prefer people sharing their impressions good and bad on a topic. What I do with the information is up to me finally.

Not a fan of the obliterator as it is extremely overcosted for how easily you can get cover against a immobile gun and the ease a fortification gets destroyed.

Well... i have a Knight and will of course use it with my Skitarii...but the knight doesn't hold 10 - 20 rangers ... and you know it might even be "FUN" to use...it could be a real thematic game of your skitarii defending a forge worlds newly designed Cannon.etc etc... this game isn't Always about winning.....

Although, if all you play against are Beardy cheese & whine guys who Smell undesirable,can recite the McDonalds fast food list off by heart(in proper order) and aren't even remotely looking like being added to your Friend's list... then i totally understand the cut throated approach to list building

Mithril

As a mcdonalds frycook I feel offended somehow.

disregarding this piece of scrapcode, I think any fortification would be fun to use, like the Firestorm redebout or the Aquilla action playset. heck make a fortress of redemption a 'fortress of knowledge' and you can make a cool thematic list.

I have been a frycook myself at one time. Gave me my cook's hands (slight neurapathy, but at least I don't burn so easily anymore).

The fortification can be what you can make of it. It's there to be used. I have to try it. Let the plasma spill where it may.

To relate this to the topic (Rangers and Vanguards), have you guys thought about using Fortifications (namely those with a "troop capacity")?

Since we lack any transports ourselves and sometimes Allying to get a Transport can start racking up the points (having to buy an HQ and 2 Troops just to get the Transport) I feel like some Fortifications can be a real boon for us and these two units in particular.

What do you guys think?

Sorry. It wasn't my intention to derail the subject of the thread. Maybe a few of these posts can be made into another topic as I mentioned earlier.

I think it is worth exploring. Mathamancy aside, it needs some table research. Would a pack of vanguard or rangers be up to protecting this? Four firing points with eight guns... maybe a base squad, no frills? galvanics give you a 30" range. Would you want some plasma calivers there for flavor?

[CommodusXIII]

To relate this to the topic (Rangers and Vanguards), have you guys thought about using Fortifications (namely those with a "troop capacity")? 

 

Since we lack any transports ourselves and sometimes Allying to get a Transport can start racking up the points (having to buy an HQ and 2 Troops just to get the Transport) I feel like some Fortifications can be a real boon for us and these two units in particular. 

 

What do you guys think?

 

This will be a major part of my Skitarii faction.  I'm planning on running with my Rangers (and possibly some Tarantulas if running Unbound) behind a defense line.  I'm also working on a Mechanicus Bastion as a terrain element for a campaign I'll be starting soon.  Depending on how it works out, that might find a way into my army as well.

 

Since we're so squishy, I figure the more cover/protection the better.  I also like the idea of my Mechanicus army being focused on fortifications and siege-craft, as it works into their background very well.  I'm running my Skitarii in tandem with my Knights, so there will be plenty of other things for my opponents to shoot at in larger battles.

[Ordo Machinum]

The promethium relay pipes do not appear to offer us anything but a cover save. Too bad the 'fuel siphon' is only good for flamer weapons. Imagine if our plasma calivers could get the assault to heavy boost. Ahhh well.

 

Terrain isn't just sitting there to look pretty. It's there to make your opponent cuss you out if you can use it to your advantage.

 

Would it be worth leaving 2 full squads inside a plasma obliterator? I think save some points and use smaller ranger squads (and if they get TOO HOT from being inside, it's not a total loss. Thoughts?

[MithrilForge]

Well... i have a Knight and will of course use it with my Skitarii...but the knight doesn't hold 10 - 20 rangers ... and you know it might even be "FUN" to use...it could be a real thematic game of your skitarii defending a forge worlds newly designed Cannon.etc etc... this game isn't Always about winning.....

Although, if all you play against are Beardy cheese & whine guys who Smell undesirable,can recite the McDonalds fast food list off by heart(in proper order) and aren't even remotely looking like being added to your Friend's list... then i totally understand the cut throated approach to list building

So me not beeing a fan of a model and it's rules somehow gave you the impression I'm a WAAC guy and also - by your snarky logic - "a beardy cheese & whine guy who smells undesirable"? Thats so wrong on so many levels but who am I talking about political correctness on the interwebs...

You have me absolutely wrong good sir...(Alas the non emotion of the interwebz strikes again) i was stating that you were the "nice Guy" and may likely be on the receiving end of said cheese players hence your choice of army for your area...not the other way round, although if YOU think i'm saying your cheesy without knowing anything about you then...that's not my problem,you decide what kind of player you are...

note* there was no snarkyness identified in my post if you read it as me placing you in the positive... and yes there are gamer's out there that seriously match those stated criteria...is it wrong to state the truth? ...

[Tiger9gamer]

anyways back to the topic... what do you think is best for an army, MSU of units with 2 weapons each, or full ten man squads?

[Lord Daidalos]

@off-topic All: If anyone really wants an PO... just found this... last one in stock: http://www.fantasy-warehouse.de/epages/61494479.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61494479/Products/GW-99120199033

Good online shop, btw. I always buy my minis there;

 

@Tiger: Depends. I will go with 10 per squad with standard-weaponry and 5 each for the special-weapon-squads. Second: MSU for Rangers seems nice to get decent cover and pick multiple targets (aka: enemy special/heavy weapon squadmembers) while bigger Units of Vanguard might help getting in shorter range and maybe melee...

[Vash]

anyways back to the topic... what do you think is best for an army, MSU of units with 2 weapons each, or full ten man squads?

There is no "best" setup. 

MSU have its purposes, and so does a full unit of ten men. 

 

But, I do believe that in larger games, 1500 pts and up, full units are better. Not necessary equipped with 3 special weapons all the time. 

A small unit here and there could fullfil some vital roles. Such as claiming objectives and hiding out of line of sight as their foot print is smaller. 

 

 

On another note, I had a small game two days ago. Sure it was against Astra Militarum, with 5+ and 4+ saves, but... 

The Transuranic Arquebus I felt was over priced. Even if I would go up against marines I have a hard time seeing it as a weapon I would chose. I think the Galvanic Rifle is doing a much better job at standard troops. 

Against bikes and what not, where the arquebus would do good, I think we have so much other weapons at our disposal that can handle such units. 

I will give it that it has a very long range, but... its 25 pts a piece for one shot. The rest of the unit sits there and watches the wielder shoot. 

 

Currently I am going to try out a ranger squad with no upgrades (well they do have an omnispex). 

I think they can be an annoying unit that doesn't take much priority since the other units I have are equipped with special weapons. 

[Tiger9gamer]

Yea, the arquebus is a cool model but I agree it is overpriced... Will use the one I built as a vindicare assassin though! 

 

 

How do you feel on the Arc Rifles? do you think they are good from the game you played? I would also be interested to hear how you think the battle went. did your units suffer from the footslogging thing too much?

[Vash]

Well its only been one game, but it did contain a lot of different elements. 

 

The Arc rifles I personally like a lot. If I had choice between them and the meltagun I would go for the arc rifle. The arc rifles 24" range really helps. Getting within 12" rapid fire range makes it a beast vs tanks. 

A meltagun works best at 6", and somewhat good at 12". 

 

When the unit isn't shooting at vehicles, the shots from the arc rifle doesn't feel "wasted" as one could feel sometimes with a meltagun vs guardsmen for example. 

The high strength and two shots really makes it a good weapon vs infantry too. 

 

Foot slogging is a slight problem. Specially for the Vanguards. Their range is very limited in the first turns, and larger units are needed to reach their intended target. 

A transport of some kind would do good for them. 

Since we are a part of the imperium any army willing to gift us with a transport is welcome. 

 

In the future I'll be adding a Flesh tearer strike force. 1 HQ (librarian on bike, represented by a forge world mechanum model, joining the either sicarian unit), 1 TROOP (scouts, converted from skitarii, there to claim objectives), and 3 FAST ATTACK, drop pods for my Skitarii Vanguard units. 

 

But by doing this, I'll be smack in the middle of it. So I have constructed my army concept around a very aggressive play style. Thus close combat weapons are a must on the alphas. I have also included two inquisitors, equipped with rad grenades who joins them for extra debut of toughness. 

 

 

Onto how the battle it self. It was a semi introduction game for a friend, but he has a lot of gaming experience from WHFB and other game systems. Well even WH40k but it was some years ago. 

Versus Astra Millitarum I feel we do have a slight advantage when it comes to the infantry fire power. But once the tanks come into play, Skitarii are starting to lose ground. Thus the arc rifle becomes more and more important. 

 

I did look down on the Rangers on paper over the Vanguards. But the range really comes into play. Also the "move through cover" rule makes them very mobile, able to move from cover to cover, and stay outside range of other armies basic weapons (well not Tau). 

 

 

The Sicarian units suffer from one huge problem, they are T3 units. 

Their extra move really helps, but I feel like its not enough some times. The crusader saves them, if there is some decent amount of terrain on the table. 

Against weapon units, such as Guardsmen, the infiltrators have a tough choice some times. To shoot them or charge them. Shooting with their weapons will in many cases take out a huge chunk of soldiers. 

[Vel'Cona]

I'm of the opinion that Arc Rifles are winning the competitiveness game for Skitarii right now. All that Haywire is just amazing for anti-tank, AND it's their cheapest option and synergizes well with the general range of Skitarii (30" for Rangers, 18" for Vanguard). Really, I think those bits will be the hot ticket for Skitarii as they get played more. Sad part is, you only get one per box

I figured the Sicarians would have that problem. Again, it comes back to the fact that all their durability comes from FnP and 2 Wounds: both of which are negated by Strength 6+ shooting. Since they don't have any way to get Shrouded and Infiltrators pay a huge premium for Stealth (and 7th edition is PACKED with Ignores Cover), they can't depend on cover saves. Even worse, their middling 4+ is often ignored by S6+ shooting, such as Assault Cannons, Autocannons, Battle Cannons, etc. Nevermind the terror that is a Heldrake! I have a feeling they'll quickly become obsolete once the full AdMech codex launches, unless there's some kind of amazing new IC or Formation for them.

[Tiger9gamer]

Honestly the sicarans never scratched that itch as a unit. I played them once and it really seems the infiltrators need to outflank at least. and in all honesty, I rather have 10 more vanguard or rangers than 5 sicarans. but that's just me.  

 

time to start looking for some arc rifle bits!

[CommodusXIII]

While it may be a costly and risky tactic, small squads of Ruststalkers or Infiltrators are attention-grabbers that could distract from the march of Vanguard-carried arc rifles/plasma calivers into optimal firing positions.

[Vash]

I did outflank with my infiltrators. It work really well. 

They caught a long range scanner unit off guard. And from there they could march on. 

 

Playing with the Sicarians requires some patience and army wide tactics. They either pull attention to them self, saving others, or you make sure you have more threatening units to take the heat of them. 

 

Something I did was that I moved all my units out from cover and marched towards my opponent. This gave my opponent a huge choice of targets. Everything was in the open and in line of sight. Sure I lost a lot, but in return I could next turn get in range with rapid fire, close combat, and other deadly things. This actually saved my rust stalkers, so they could carry on and get into close combat.