[HH1.0] The Sons of Barbarus : A Death Guard Tactica Thread

[disease]

Best way for us to deal with Suzerains / elite terminator equivalents?  Every time I've played against them, they have just stomped me.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Deathshroud terminators should be able to go toe to toe with most elites considering they are ap2 and not unwieldy with their scythes.

[Slips]

They're also 2 Wounds now too, iirc. 

[Marshal Loss]

They've always had 2 wounds. But yeah they'll deal with most enemy elites easily, provided they're not a 2 wound unit in Cataphractii, who will outlast them and likely counter their 2 wounds with fists. Suzies strike first but that won't matter when we have double their wounds. :)

[Terminus]

You won't have twice the wounds since they will have twice the dudes for the same cost. Suzerain strike first with AP2 and have 5++. With an apothecary (which is much easier and cheaper for them to get vs death shroud), they should win that combat.

 

I can definitely see it both ways, as with many GW rules.

 

It comes down to a question of "has the unit been assaulted when the charge is declared, or when the 'assault is launched' after overwatch and the charge distance rolled."

 

I guess I could lean towards the latter, and say rad does not affect overwatch. However, a d6 to decide would not be out of the question.

The rules specifically state when the "assault is launched" and it's when you roll dice. Edited September 8, 2016 by Terminus

[Marshal Loss]

That is a gross exaggeration. They aren't going to have double for the same cost - you're going to get 10 Deathshroud for ~410 not including melta bombs, and they'll get 10 Suzerains and an Apothecary for nearly the same amount (370). Even if they have 10 with a Centurion to equal the cost (albeit without FNP) the Deathshroud should still outfight them. WS5 is mostly made up for with the +1S from Power Scythes, and we have better shooting/overwatch. Saves are identical on both sides. Deathshroud will win that fight; extra attacks from piling in with their scythes and an extra wound will comfortably beat FNP and WS5.

 

They effectively have to do double the wounds to have sufficient impact and the % increase from both their WS advantage and the Legatine Axe isn't sufficient to make them superior to DS in combat. DS having 2 wounds removes the biggest advantage Suzerains gets - their ability to whittle down enemy elites to make it an uneven fight.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Marshal Loss

[Caillum]

^Agreed. Deathshroud are really quite strong now!

[Charlo]

Remember Legatine Axes bypass the wound roll on 1/6 of all hits - so they get that many guaranteed, which is a nice little edge.

 

Both DG TDA are very powerful and pretty well balanced too.

 

Pride really is a fluffy and awesome option for us!

[Terminus]

You are shrooming hard if you think you will somehow get all 10 terminator bases into contact with multiple models to get the extra swing. You won't get squad-wide extra attack, remember legatine axes wound automatically on a 6 to hit, and probably at least two of the 10 will have thunder hammers. The 8 axe guys will deal roughly 8 wounds before you swing, so after saves you're already down 2-3 guys. Then if we assume all 7-8 remaining shroud get to swing with an extra attack (not really ever gonna happen), you're killing 3 models in return. Then the pair of thunder hammers smashes another one or two.

 

You will lose that fight unless you get lucky or there are other factors like you shooting them first and getting an assault off on them.

 

Otherwise, pound for pound Suzerain are the best melee unit in the game, except maybe a big Inductii mob.

[Flint13]

Legatine axes are gross, but I feel like if you've let them get into expensive, multi wound models (exactly where the Ultra player wants them) then you're either asleep at the wheel or have bigger problems.

[Terminus]

Well yeah, that is why you would want to set up an optimal engagement of shooting the crap out of them and only engaging in melee to mop up. That should go without saying. I was arguing against the proposed sentiment that Desth Shroud would knock about even "Suzies". I knew a girl named Suzy in high school, and once watched her knee a boy two heads taller in the nuts and take his lunch. These Suzies treat most targets much the same. Even my Castellax and Vorax death squads have struggled with Suzerain.

[Flint13]

I will admit my experience with Suzerains so far had been to drop demo cannons on them from 24" away

[Terminus]

That is how it should be.  They are only 6++ vs. AP2 shooting.

[Chaeron]

I'm reworking the list I took to a Heresy Campaign Weekend to take into account the updated book's changes, as well as tweaking things subtly. One of the few things I hadn't invested in for my two large squads of Marines was Artificer Armour for the Sergeant. Having now seen them tactically used to try and take wounds initially, I'm liking the thought of doing the same, although - in this instance, is it then worth upgrading them in any other way? Just mulling over adding on extra wargear (normally a Power Fist), if I'm putting them in the firing line straight from the off :lol:

 

Other thoughts involve swapping out the Medusas or Spartan for something, but I've not worked that out yet. I'm particularly wondering if the latter is now worthwhile in a 3k game, as I typically used that for Mortarion and the Deathshroud, which probably accounts for a third of my points...

[Lord Asvaldir]

If you want to use a sergeant has a meatshield, I wouldn't advise giving him an expensive piece of equipment like a fist since he's probably going to die absorbing bullets. Melta bomb is the only thing I'd consider since it's fairly cheap. 

[Charlo]

Okay my fellow Chem-swilling unbroken blades... With the advent of plastic MkII/III from the upcoming set, aswell as plastic Tartaros (cheap Deathshroud?) I feel like the DG are going to be easier to get the right look for than ever.

 

So let's talk more tactics!

 

Anyone got any cool findings to report as of late? Any killer strats they have unleashed?

 

I'm toying with the reaping again and I think the Vigilator strat I talked about earlier has some real legs behind it and is different enough to my future BA/ Mechanicum projects to inspire.

[Chaeron]

If you want to use a sergeant has a meatshield, I wouldn't advise giving him an expensive piece of equipment like a fist since he's probably going to die absorbing bullets. Melta bomb is the only thing I'd consider since it's fairly cheap. 

 

That's true - even then, I'm thinking I might just leave that on the Apothecaries with the squad. I suppose it's trying to be practical, but realistically - they're just two big heavy blobs. I'm wondering whether I might even split them down to four ten-man squads for utility...

 

Okay my fellow Chem-swilling unbroken blades... With the advent of plastic MkII/III from the upcoming set, aswell as plastic Tartaros (cheap Deathshroud?) I feel like the DG are going to be easier to get the right look for than ever.

 

So let's talk more tactics!

 

Anyone got any cool findings to report as of late? Any killer strats they have unleashed?

 

I'm toying with the reaping again and I think the Vigilator strat I talked about earlier has some real legs behind it and is different enough to my future BA/ Mechanicum projects to inspire.

 

I can't add much on the tactics front, but I'm still working through updating my list a campaign weekend with club-mates in about two weeks. My internal dialogue is whether I stick with Creeping Death, Rapier Batteries and two Medusas (which had a good fear factor last time!), as well as a Spartan as a transport - or if I dispense with the Spartan and invest that elsewhere... That's over a tenth of my points for something that operates as a delivery system for Mortarion and the Deathshroud, and i'm wondering whether it may just be worth letting them roam alone. Any thoughts brothers?

 

I'm probably looking at the 3,000pts mark this time though, which does give me a further 500pts to play with, and I'm just thinking how I might best spend them. Almost too many options! Another temptation is to get a Lightning ready, which is a more recent addition to the collection...

[Charlo]

The 3k list is what I'm trying to achieve at the moment.

 

I love the reaping but as soon nasty yo u start to fit in both special units of terminators you don't have many points left for heavy weapons...

 

But having three "small" heavy choices and then a load of heavy weapon squads in troops is a wonderful thought.

 

Oh and if you want to get Mortarion and Co up the board, why not try out my Vigilator idea? Outflank son! Cheaper than a spartan.

[Chaeron]

Oh and if you want to get Mortarion and Co up the board, why not try out my Vigilator idea? Outflank son! Cheaper than a spartan.

 

Hmm, it's a good possibility! I think my only issue is trying to test it before then (and I don't know if I'll be able to...). I think Mortarion is sufficiently movable, so I could perhaps even dispense with the Deathshroud to add more bodies to my Troops core. I think I'll have a play with a few options and see what takes my fancy. I don't think I'm wildly off a list I'd be happy to play regularly with - but I suppose part of that is getting the balance right for all-comers.

 

I'd similarly be keen to hear what others are having the most success with currently - always nice to reflect!

[Charlo]

I'd love to give a success story, but my stuff is still just washed resin in a case

 

3K List I'm currently working to is this though (in short hand):

 

Mortarion - [The Reaping]

 

Siege Breaker [TDA or just plain to sit with heavies]

Vigilator

Vigilator

 

Tacs [Multi Melta Rhino - AA/ Scythe/ Rads Sarge]

Tacs [Multi Melta Rhino - AA/ Scythe/ Rads Sarge]

Missile Squad

Culverin Squad

Lascannon Squad

 

Deathshroud [Vigilator + Mort goes here]

Kheres Mortis

Phosphex Quads

 

Grave Wardens [Vigilator goes here]

 

Aegis line with Comms.

 

I think though the list could suffer with having two units of terms outflanking and then not being truly active until turn 3 - I may exchange the Deathshroud and their Vigilator for more firepower around the list - that said, this has NO shortage of scoring units. 7 In fact!

 

So instead of the 'shroud, might see what I can do with the last two heavy support slots - really maximize the Reaping's benefits.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Charlo

[misterkho]

Any experiences with Creeping Death? on paper it seems to me to be a bit better then the reaping?

[Charlo]

Any experiences with Creeping Death? on paper it seems to me to be a bit better then the reaping?

 

I'd argue it's much much worse. The bombardment is nigh useless on 99.9% of boards. While it doesn't restrict movement like the reaping, it's benefits disappear at close range... Terminators also get Zero benefit from it, which are our hallmark units.

 

The only benefit is the cover save, which, on a proper table isn't worth a lot anyway. In smaller games it works well though, as Frag missiles are relevant and the infantry precious.

 

Funnily enough, like I've theorized with the Reaping, Vigilators are another way to abuse the system - as you get the camo cloak added to the cover save from the Rite.

 

We had a few pages of discussion but it didn't really amount to much. Fluff wise its a cool rite, but if you have only a jungle board it seems like it would be OP, whereas without its kinda useless?

[Chaeron]

 

 

Any experiences with Creeping Death? on paper it seems to me to be a bit better then the reaping?

I'd argue it's much much worse. The bombardment is nigh useless on 99.9% of boards. While it doesn't restrict movement like the reaping, it's benefits disappear at close range... Terminators also get Zero benefit from it, which are our hallmark units.

 

The only benefit is the cover save, which, on a proper table isn't worth a lot anyway. In smaller games it works well though, as Frag missiles are relevant and the infantry precious.

 

Funnily enough, like I've theorized with the Reaping, Vigilators are another way to abuse the system - as you get the camo cloak added to the cover save from the Rite.

 

We had a few pages of discussion but it didn't really amount to much. Fluff wise its a cool rite, but if you have only a jungle board it seems like it would be OP, whereas without its kinda useless?

It's a valid question! I'm a big proponent of it: I've probably used it in roughly five or so games, and my main justification was the bonus cover save. In terms of terrain, all those games were played on urban battlefields - so I didn't actually get to test in a way I had hoped, but still :lol: I think this is within the context of my lists - I tend to aim for two 20-strong squads, so that plus and a Apothecary are designed to increase survivability for as long as possible. However, with that in mind, on quite a few tables - your cover save will be just as good as the one the Rite provides, so I think it's just an extra bonus. That, and the fact it doesn't impact on movement - combined with my typical list, is the reason why I utilise it. For this next set of games, I'm unsure whether to opt for one or other - as I think it really does influence list composition.

 

With a Phosphex/Rad theme potentially under consideration - I'm going to ask a quick question... Do Rad Grenades stack? My reading suggests separate units (both charging) could utilise this, but I'm thinking whether say Typhon with Deathshroud/Grave Wardens would have that benefit? *Edit: Although if they were a whole unit, I could understand that this wouldn't - so I suppose it would have to be a carefully managed charge.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Chaeron

[misterkho]

ok, how i see it:

with that extra cover save from creeping death you don't need to go in terrain and therefore you can always move your full 6" reducing your opponents cover is also a nice trick. The dangerous terrain tests are a welcome bonus but not something to count on having much effect. swapping rad grenades for strength 5 frag seems to me a better deal. especially since rad grenades only work in close combat. something which is hard to run since you can't deepstrike/run with the reaping! and in that last part is where i really have issues with the reaping...deathguard is soo slow..

[1000 Sons]

I have been a fan of creeping death. Just being able to drop a leviathan in a pod in the enemies back field takes a ton of pressure off your main force moving down the field with an improved cover save. Edited October 6, 2016 by 1000 sons