[HH1.0] 30k Ultramarines tactics

[Caillum]

I just want to put it on record that I think Guilliman is the 2nd best Primarch in-game (after Horus). Not a fan of Ultramarines in particular, and I have no inclination to collect them, so I'm not being biased here.

 

Firstly, his army-buffing abilities are great:

- Invictarus Suzerains & Legion Terminators as Troops,

- +1 Ld to his whole army,

- force his opponent to re-roll successful Seize The Initiative,

- choose a unit and give it Tank Hunters, Implacable Advance or Interceptor (fantastic opportunities here).

 

Ok, so Suzerains as Troops is useful, given they are a really good unit, and Terminators are fine if you want them too. +1 Ld is a decent buff too, more than likely giving everyone Ld 10. And making your opponent re-roll a successful Seize The Initiative will save your bacon occasionally.

 

But being able to choose any unit and give it a select rule is amazing. 3 Sicarans with lascannons? Give them Tank Hunters. A couple of Contemptor talons? Implacable Advance will give them a lot more versatility. 9 dakka Predators? Interceptor on nearly 120 shots is a scary prospect (yes, probably a crazy concept, but still...). This rewards taking a single unit multiple times, so think carefully about how you'd do this.

 

Secondly, his personal abilities are great:

- re-roll a single Invulnerable Save each PHASE (much more powerful than it sounds),

- +1 WS in a challenge after each round (again, more powerful than it sounds),

- he and his unit re-roll failed charges and are immune to Concussive,

- a choice of 2 decent weapons - the Gladius Incandor (a Paragon blade with Shred) & the Hand of Dominion (a Strength 10 AP 1 Concussive chainfist). Together they grant an additional attack.

 

His Invulnerable save re-roll is deceptively good, as often it takes a lot to get a wound through anyway. Hit him with a Medusa shell? Re-roll that 2 and pass his save. In a challenge, this is great for keeping him going, thereby buffing his WS each round and making him better in combat.

 

He can murder troops or vehicles with his choice of weapons. The Galdius Incandor will mulch any infantry - add a Forge Lord with rad grenades to help mince those 2-Wound models and deny FNP (and being immune to Concussive, he and his Suzerains will continue to strike at Initiative against Firedrakes or Castellax). The Hand of Dominion will end any vehicle/MC, or bring an enemy Primarch down to Initiative 1 - note it is not Strength x2, so it can't be de-buffed.

 

His stats are very standard fair for a Primarch, but he is a real Dark Horse. Primarch on Primarch fights are a grindfest, with the game often ending before anyone dies, but he should eventually win against everyone bar Horus (check the maths if you don't believe me). Most of the time it doesn't come to this, as Primarchs tend to die to massed firepower (lol Vulkan) or Typhon treads, but it is something in his favour. The combination of a S10 Concussive weapon, the WS boost each round and the Invulnerable save re-roll is the reason for this.

 

Unlike some Primarchs that only fight well, or others that only buff well, Guilliman has the best of both worlds (for only 400 points). Underestimate him at your peril.

[Ishagu]

I completely agree with everything you've said.

What's really impressive, is that every single one of his rules will be useful and come into play during a game.

And as you mentioned, thanks to his Hand of Dominion he would even give Horus a good fight! In fact, thanks to his WS increase he wouldn't be affected in a prolonged combat with him, although if he somehow came out of it he would be nerfed horribly...

Edited November 24, 2015 by Ishagu

[GreyCrow]

Oh, for the record I wasn't looking at him only for his buffing abilities or Tank Hunters He is a good model in a vacuum for sure !

 

What I meant was that he seems to synergize better with an army that has strong shooty units Interceptor is definitely shooting, and Tank Hunters I feel synergizes better with shooting than melee (because that's where most of the high strength weapons in Legions are found, and I feel these are the weapons that you want to give Tank Hunters to like in your example with the Sicarans).

Compare that to say Horus for example who really buffs close range armies (secure Deep Strike for his retinue, Outflank to everybody in reserves, seizing bonus that really helps getting that extra first turn).

 

I agree with your statement about his personal abilities and I said that they really apply more in challenges than in general melee Due to his low number of attacks, you want him and his squad to go and tank the tougher units out there and grind them to death over several turns, while throwing him on mooks infantry is a bit wasted. Corax for example works well in melee against any target.

 

I trust you when you say that taking Suzerains and Terminators as Troops is a big deal I haven't played enough to really see the benefits of this considering they all already have Implacable advance, but I feel that can be good when you want to make a dedicated assault force using both of them as core troops without resorting to Pride of the Legion

 

____

 

I'm just trying to find a good retinue fit for him, aka a melee unit that does its job well in melee and can actually kill stuff, that has a role within the confines or a greater army I really can't determine whether the Suzerains or Cataphractii Terminators with Power Fists are better to be honest though.

 

Suzerains do have the ability to strike at Initiative with AP2 as well as Sweeping Advance compared to Terminators, but I feel their defensive power is really weak. Sure, they ignore AP3, but a 6++/5++ in melee does seem risky due to all the AP2. That's where (as you mentioned), Guilliman's Armour of Reason comes in where he can tank for the squad with rerolling the first failed invulnerable, then swap to Look Out Sir mode when he starts taking wounds. But we're talking 6++ against shooting for the rest of the squad...

Also, for me their S4 is really the problem. I understand that they wound on 6s to hit which is a bit of a bone, but I'm not sure that's very reliable.

 

On the other note, the Cataphractii are definitely tougher and have access to the Power Fist/Chainfists which makes them efficient even against the odd Contemptor thrown at them to tarpit (although in that case, Guilliman could probably tank a couple of Contemptors no probs) as well as threaten the most Armoured stuff out there should they breach the enemy lines (bye bye Super Heavy). And their 4++ really does make them a lot more survivable all accross the board than the Suzerains.

 

_____

 

So, with all that said I've got that feeling for these units and I'd love if you could comment on that :

- Suzerains : Because they lack the raw damage power against the toughest units out there, I feel that they are a good choice for a melee support that will finish weakened units in the scenario of a gunline army that packs sufficient punch at range to reliably deal with all the threats. In that scenario though, it might involve already investing in a Super Heavy Lord of War like a Falchion or a Fellblade, so the Primarch is out of the equation.

- Terminators : They have the capability to deal with the toughest stuff thanks to their S8 options (and 15 S8 Attacks, possibly Armourbane) is nothing to scoff at, and they can tank all units thrown at them thanks to the 2+/4++.

 

So, I guess that my question is regarding the combined arms approach you guys have mentionned :

- Is it possible for a Legion army, without taking shooty Lords of War stuff, to be actually able to deal with Super Heavies with AV14 and Armoured Ceramite with shooty units while being limited to 3 Heavy Support slots (and possibly Elite) counting the boosts of the Primarch ? And by that I mean deal with efficiently, not stripping a hull point a turn, but taking a maximum of 2 turns to kill them.

 

If yes, then the Invictarus Suzerains are definitely a viable choice considering that they are able to deal with any non vehicle target. I'm just relying on your experience to figure that out.

And let's go balls to the wall competitive here, assuming we face one of the meanest list out there.

 

_____

 

(Callium, I also do think that the Primarch really favours giving his bonus to tanks like you said. I could be wrong, but infantry has access to similar rules from Consuls which you'd likely take in an UM army like the Master of Signal and the Siegebreaker, while Tanks don't have that option).

Edited November 24, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Captain Idaho]

You realise, GreyCrow, that Suzerains have access to Thunder Hammers too. Edited November 24, 2015 by Captain Idaho

[Ishagu]

On the topic of av14 Super Heavies like the Typhon, Sicarans with Tank Hunters and Thudd Guns can glance it to death.

 

Remember that you won't be facing more than one Typhon or Spartan in games around the 2k mark.

[GreyCrow]

You realise, GreyCrow, that Suzerains have access to Thunder Hammers too.

 

I do, but I don't feel it's a cost effective upgrade on them for 2 reasons :

1) It's 15 points per model while the Terminator's S8 only costs 5 points. So, effectively for the same number of attacks you get a unit that costs 200 points and another that costs 275

2) You lose the benefit of striking with AP2 at Initiative 4 which is one of their main draw, and you only rely on a 5++ against AP2. If I'm striking at I1 with AP2, I feel that at least a 4++ is what I want

 

So that's why I was discounting the upgrade entirely. For rule of cool on a couple models it might be nice though.

 

 

On the topic of av14 Super Heavies like the Typhon, Sicarans with Tank Hunters and Thudd Guns can glance it to death.

 

Remember that you won't be facing more than one Typhon or Spartan in games around the 2k mark.

 

 

Very true, when you talk about Sicarans are you going for the Venator or the regular one ? With Tank Hunters the regular Sicaran could be an interesting proposition.

 

Obviously, I'm only going to face one Super Heavy, but I'm planning the contingency where the opponent has decent Armour Saturation all around (that's what I'd do if I fielded a Super Heavy) so I want to take as little time as possible to deal with it ^^

Edited November 24, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Ishagu]

I think they are superior to Terminators just because of not being bulky, being able to sweeping advance and coming with what is essentially defensive Grenades.

 

Remember you can add a Forge Lord or Chaplain for a modest expense to really boost their capabilities in combat.

[GreyCrow]

I think they are superior to Terminators just because of not being bulky, being able to sweeping advance and coming with what is essentially defensive Grenades.

 

Remember you can add a Forge Lord or Chaplain for a modest expense to really boost their capabilities in combat.

 

Good points about the Rad Grenades from the Forgelord. Definitely worth it especially considering he can repair the transports they're in.

[Ishagu]

90 points for a Forge Lord with Rad Grenades. He also provides an additional str8 ap2 attack.

[GreyCrow]

Yeah, now we're stalking to talk shop Wound on 3+ might just be what these guys need (although the Chaplain is an insurance against bad To-Hit rolls, but hitting on 3+ might mitigates that already).

Although, to defend against Fulgrim and Phoenix Terminators, a 4++ is better (I know I'm looking at the worst case scenario here haha). Although, the defensive Grenades might help here for sure.

 

Fluffwise, would you recommend a Forgelord or a Chaplain ? I wouldn't want to clearly broadcast I'm a dirty optimizer :p

Edited November 24, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Ishagu]

It's a hard case for both Chaplain and Forge Lord.

Wounding on a 3 against Marines is nice, but re-rolling hits when you'll likely be hitting on a 3 is also very useful.

 

5 Suzerains on the charge with a Chaplain will typically land 12/13 hits. Some of those will be auto wounds as well.

Don't underestimate the defensive Grenades, it's feasible that the unit might be charged.

[GreyCrow]

Good case about the auto-wounds too, I guess I'll have to math this out ;)

 

My only gripe with the defensive grenades is that while the unit might be charged indeed, it means that it can be shot at as well. And with AP2 that is, in which case the 4++ of the Cataphractii provide a better defense.

[Caillum]

Suzerains are my choice - the ability to Sweeping Advance will help a lot, I think. Like Captain Idaho said, they can take thunder hammers, so they too can dish out some Strength 8 Concussive pain (which costs a Terminator 10 points, but whatever). I wouldn't bother taking advantage of the Honour Bearers rule, but rather fill a Troops slot (or at least free up an Elites slot). A Dedicated Transport is mandatory - 5 in a Land Raider for smaller games, 10 in a Spartan for bigger games. Add in a Forge Lord with rad grenades and a Primus Medicae for extra punch and survivability.

 

Try this on for size:

 

HQ

Forge Lord: bolt pistol; Legatine axe; melta bombs; rad grenades; combat shield; Cyber-familiar 140

Master of Signal

• Damocles Command Rhino

Primus Medicae: artificer armour; bolt pistol; power weapon; melta bombs; combat shield 120

 

TROOPS

9 Tactical Space Marines: nuncio-vox; Legion vexilla; + 1 Tactical Sergeant (artificer armour; melta bombs) 185

• Rhino

9 Tactical Space Marines: nuncio-vox; Legion vexilla; + 1 Tactical Sergeant (artificer armour; melta bombs) 185

• Rhino

10 Invictarus Suzerains: 2× thunder hammer 355

 

FAST ATTACK

Javelin Attack Speeder Squadron

• 1 Javelin Attack Speeder: multi-melta; 2× hunter-killer missiles 95

Javelin Attack Speeder Squadron

• 1 Javelin Attack Speeder: multi-melta; 2× hunter-killer missiles 95

Javelin Attack Speeder Squadron

• 1 Javelin Attack Speeder: multi-melta; 2× hunter-killer missiles 95

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

Spartan Assault Tank: armoured ceramite; flare shield; dozer blade 345

Deredeo Pattern Dreadnought: Aiolos missile launcher 220

 

LORDS OF WAR

Roboute Guilliman

 

2,500 points

 

Forge Lord, Primus Medicae and Guilliman join the Suzerains in the Spartan. Went for something different and took Javelins with Tank Hunters (5 Strength 8 shots each is nothing to sneeze at, and half the price of a Sicaran). Master of Signal hides in his Damocles in the backfield, with the Deredeo nearby for anti-air. 2 Tactical Squads are mobile, and have nuncio-vox for accurate bombardments.

 

GreyCrow, you will be happy to know this also fulfils the requirements for Logos Lectora... :)

[GreyCrow]

It's definitely worth considering

 

Okay, here's the math against TEQ (5 Cataphractii with Power Fists) for the Suzerains and Terminators (with Power Fists), with and without Chaplain (I take the profile when they're charged, because that's the scenario that's going to determine whether) :

1) Without Chaplain

- Suzerains : 10 Attacks, 1.667 autowounds + 5 hits, 4.1667 total wounds, 2.08 Terminators dead / Return attacks (couting 3 Terminators) : 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.667 Suzerains dead

- Terminators : 10 Attacks, 5 hits, 4.1667 wounds, 2.08 Terminators dead / Return attacks (counting 5 Terminators) : 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 6.25 wounds, 3.125 Terminators dead

 

So, Suzerains win out here.

 

2) With Chaplain

- Suzerains : 10 Attacks, 6.667 hits including 1.667 autowounds before the reroll, 2.225 autowounds after the reroll, 1.667 additional hits for a total of 6.667 regular hits, 3.335 wounds from the regular hits + 2.225 wounds = 5.55835 wounds or 2.5 Dead Terminators in front. I count 2.5 Terminators attacking back : 5 Attacks, 2.5 hits, 2.0833 wounds, 1.388 Suzerains dead

- Terminators : 10 Attacks, 7.5 hits, 6.25 wounds, or 3.125 Terminators dead. Return attacks :same case as before 3.125 Terminators dead.

 

So yeah, the Suzerains win out here again by just preventing the mutually assured destruction. It's really puzzling that mathematically speaking the Legatine Axe have the ability to push as many wounds as Power Fists on average I wasn't seeing that coming.

So yeah, the Suzerains are mainly there to survive through denying the enemy the chance to attack (because AP2 at initiative is rare) or tanking regular attacks as well as the Terminators, and ensuring that they're going to have at least the same number of attacks as the enemy.

 

However, being much more vulnerable to shooting than Cataphractii for any AP2. Although, the Terminators win in reliability at the expense of being more vulnerable in melee, so steps must be taken to mitigate bad rolls with the Suzerains by thinning the enemy down prior to charging, just to make sure.

 

Okay, fair enough, I get what you guys where thinking, although that means that any Ultramarines army will have to invest heavily in anti-tank firepower if they field Suzerains, just to make sure that they have redundancy.

FULMENTARUUUUUUUUUS !

Edited November 24, 2015 by GreyCrow

[SkimaskMohawk]

As for dealing with super heavies when you have a primarch, a venator works realllly well. Doesn't matter if you only do a hull point a turn of you auto force snapshots on them

[Volth]

- Terminators : 10 Attacks, 5 hits, 4.1667 wounds, 2.08 Terminators dead / Return attacks (counting 5 Terminators) : 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 6.25 wounds, 3.125 Terminators dead

 

How do have five Terminators more attacks than five Terminators?

[GreyCrow]

 

- Terminators : 10 Attacks, 5 hits, 4.1667 wounds, 2.08 Terminators dead / Return attacks (counting 5 Terminators) : 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 6.25 wounds, 3.125 Terminators dead

 

How do have five Terminators more attacks than five Terminators?

 

 

I was counting the Ultramarines unit as being charged by the Terminator unit (in order to measure how defense grenade affected the assault), which is why Suzerains only take 10 attacks while Terminators take 15 :)

 

 

As for dealing with super heavies when you have a primarch, a venator works realllly well. Doesn't matter if you only do a hull point a turn of you auto force snapshots on them

 

Good point for the Venator, although I feel it's a tad risky with only 2 shots (40k really loves numbers ^^). But maybe Sicaran Venators with Tank Hunters from Guilliman when needed can be good due to rerolling both dice.

[Ishagu]

Normal Sicarans with Las Cannon Sponsons are all the Tank Hunting you'll need if you take Guilliman.

 

You'll be able to glance Spartans and Typhons to death very fast.

[GreyCrow]

Point taken.

 

Also, out of curiosity, how would you rate footslogging Dreadnoughts and Contemptors of the non Mortis variant ? I'm asking because I witnessed Ironclad squadrons of 3 performing very well in 40k (although it's true that their 5 attacks base did help a lot ) and I was wondering if similar statements are true in 30k.

 

Due to AV13, 5+ Invulnerable save and no immunity to melta in the form of armoured Ceramite, I was thinking that the Contemptor Chassis was well suited to being footslogged (in which case, using 3 of them to make sure that they have a sustainable presence. Granted, it's 600 points-ish if you run them with Kheres, but is the general consensus about them ?

I don't find them particularily specialized, but they might be resilient enough to be of interest and have a cool tactical role.

 

____

 

EDIT : Also, out of curiosity, do you guys think that Independent Characters count towards the Infantry unit count in the Logos ? Technically, their entry says Unit type Infantry (Character), so I was wondering whether that was a means to bring more tanks in a Logos based list ?

 

Cheers.

Edited November 25, 2015 by GreyCrow

[1ncarnadine]

Point taken.

 

Also, out of curiosity, how would you rate footslogging Dreadnoughts and Contemptors of the non Mortis variant ? I'm asking because I witnessed Ironclad squadrons of 3 performing very well in 40k (although it's true that their 5 attacks base did help a lot ) and I was wondering if similar statements are true in 30k.

 

I've been thinking about this recently. It seems like there are a lot of powerful combos related to Guilliman's ability that haven't been discussed too much here. Could be useful with Dreadnought Talons or Mortis entries of any kind. Either way, use Guilliman to give one class either Tank Hunters or Implacable Advance. Scoring Implacable Advance Dreadnoughts seems pretty cool, and double-Kheres Contemptors with Tank Hunters? Also possibly scoring shooty Leviathans? 

 

Anyone tested many of Guilliman's one-whole-entry special rule bonus combos? What's cool? I'm thinking it's the most abusable Ultramarine ability and the best way to run them right now until they get a new RoW, forgetting the Logos entirely.

 

edit: Actually Caillium brought Contemptors up at the start of this very page. Well, "What's cool" still stands. What's turned out to be tried and true?

Edited November 25, 2015 by LetsYouDown

[Captain Idaho]

I'm thinking about taking a Breacher squad or 2 with 5 power swords per unit to fill out the Troops choice. Sure it's not particularly cost effective, but it creates an assault force for my Troops tax. After all, 400+ points on Tacticals who have just Bolters isn't great.

[Ishagu]

I'm thinking about taking a Breacher squad or 2 with 5 power swords per unit to fill out the Troops choice. Sure it's not particularly cost effective, but it creates an assault force for my Troops tax. After all, 400+ points on Tacticals who have just Bolters isn't great.

Remember, Idaho. Those Bolters can potentially fire 4 times in a single shooting phase.

[GreyCrow]

I'm thinking about taking a Breacher squad or 2 with 5 power swords per unit to fill out the Troops choice. Sure it's not particularly cost effective, but it creates an assault force for my Troops tax. After all, 400+ points on Tacticals who have just Bolters isn't great.

 

Agree wih Ishagu, plus I really have trouble seeing Breachers in any list except Armoured Spearhead. To me, they really seem fluffy and effective for Zone Mortalis operations where they basically cancel out the bonuses of Zone Mortalis to Blast and Template weapons. They're really meant for close quarters infantry superiority I feel.

 

Besides, on an open terrain where there are AP3 and better blasts, they won't really be using their bonuses much.

 

___

 

Can I also repeat my question about the Logos Tank limitations because I feel this might be a key to running it a tad more effectively than seems possible.

 

Basically, the Logos says that you can't run more vehicles with the Tank types than you have infantry units. More specially, a detachment with this ROW can't take more vehicles with the Tank rule than it has units with the Infantry type.

 

I was wondering whether HQs, being of the unit type Infantry, counted as this limit ? My gut feeling would be yes, because Infantry (Character) isn't a type. Infantry is a type as per the BRB (you can have Character MCs, etc)

 

Because, potentially, having 3 HQs (a Praetor and 2 Consuls) would allow 3 extra tanks on top on any other Infantry unit I take.

 

So, if I ran these 3 HQs, plus Suzerains, 3 Troops and a Heavy Support squad, I could potentially run up to 8 tanks (dedicated transports for all + a Predator Squadron).

 

Just wanted to haveyour take on this !

[Ishagu]

Independent Characters do indeed count as a separate unit for the purpose of the Logos. So 2 HQs and 2 Tac Squads would unlock 4 tanks, for example.

 

The biggest difference between Marines in 30 and 40k, we have to remember, is that the infantry units are specialised to a single purpose (unless you take veterans).

 

A Marine squad with Bolters might not seem exciting, or be particularly damaging, but it's only in your list to engage infantry and to capture objectives and at a stretch maybe dealing with a light vehicle using Krak Grenades.

 

When I designed my list I used this mentality and thus spent the majority of my points in heavy support units to deal with things my Marines wouldn't be engaging at any time.

 

I like the look of Breachers, and there are situations where they can be effective, however I play on city/ruins based terrain in 99.9% of all games (I own a mat and a full set of painted GW terrain) so the fluff slave in me can't run them as they are primarily used for ship boarding or enclosed space combat :-P

Edited November 25, 2015 by Ishagu

[GreyCrow]

Awesome

 

Yeah, which is why I was thinking to keep them at 10 men in a Rhino and have a decent amount of support units that can actually bring good supporting fire/melee  Especially now that tank squadrons are an option due to spamming HQs (which also make it a tad more difficult to give out a free VP for the enemy).

At 3000 points, I was planning on bring at least 3 Tactical Squads anyways and my list didn't include Infiltrators or Deep Strikers, as well as these 3 HQs including a Praetor. So, might as well make it a Logos

 

So, basically, with Ultramarines and the Logos, the HQs are both your Tank Tokens as well as your VP denial : the more you have, the better !

 

However, I do agree that at very high points the Logos might not seem to scale well, due to effectively preventing you from fielding more vehicles unless you field infantry once you've exhausted your Tank Bucks.

 

____

 

EDIT : Okay, guys, I know that we've just talked about how efficient Tacticals in Rhinos are. I know we just did...

 

But...

 

Still, 20 Tactical Marines per squad just sound glorious. Times 3 and we've got a see of blue and gold as big as a very large luxury hotel pool

 

I know that putting them in Rhinos make them immune to small arms fire, and I'm not trying to say they are better (just that I find this so cool). I just want to post a stress test on how resilient they might be. In terms of number of average shots at BS4 needed to kill a squad, with Apothecary and Cover as options.

* Please note that I took 2" unit coherency distance between for Blasts and Templates, resulting in 2 hits per small Blast on average, 4 per Large Blast, 4 per Template and assuming a risk to completely scatter off target of 0% due to the large unit footprint on the table. These hypothesis are maybe wrong

 

- Bolters : 180 bolter shots, 270 with Apo

- Imperial Fists Bolters : 144 shots, 216 with Apo

- Flamers (4 per template) : 30, 45 with Apo

- Heavy Flamers : 22.5, 33.75 with Apo

- Heavy Bolters : 135 shots, 202.5 with Apo

- Autocannons : 108 shots, 165 with Apo

- Plasmaguns : 36 shots, 54 with Apo / 72 in 4+ Cover, 108 in 4+ Cover with Apo / 54 in 5+ cover, 81 in 5+ cover with Apo

- Missile Launchers/Lascannons : 36 shots / 72 in 4+ Cover / 54 in 5+ cover

- Volkite Culverins/Calivers : 84.52 shots, 126.78 with Apo

- Vokite Chargers : 110.45 shots, 165.68 with Apo

- Plasma Executionner : 12, 18 in 5+, 24 in 4+ cover / 18 with Apothecary, 27 in 5+ cover with Apothecary, 36 in 4+ cover with Apothecary

- S8 AP3 or better Small Blast (Hypothesis of 2 hits per shot) : 12 Blasts, 18 in 5+ cover, 24 in 4+ cover

- S8 AP3 or better Large Blast (Hypothesis of 4 hits per shot) : 6 Blasts, 9 in 5+ cover, 12 in 4+ cover

 

So, obviously this is an average ideal scenario, especially regarding cover. But even considering that it takes 6 Large Blast on average per squad assuming no cover and providing the models are properly placed at a discipliined 2" apart, it's not that bad considering we're talking about basic infantry. Once again, please note that mileage may vary and if you feel my estimates about the blast/template coverage is a bit low, please tell me and I'll review with worse (not worse) case scenario hypothesis

Two other downsides : 1) It's a significant investment compared to running 10 men squads in Rhinos (35 points vs 145) and 2) Due to the units taking up so much table space, it's going to provide cover to other shooty squads (hence perhaps the idea to take Artillery units with the Master of Signal so you can both draw LOS from him as well as lob your units due to Barrage and deny the enemy cover).

 

If at all, placing your squad in Rhinos opens them at a higher risk of getting killed by Blast/Template weapons due to them being clustered up and more vulnerable on a direct hit, if I wanted to play the Devil's Advocate

Edited November 25, 2015 by GreyCrow