[HH1.0] 30k Ultramarines tactics

[The Pounder]

I'd say he is an auto include, he's tough in a fight and the buffs he gives

the force are amazing.

In my last game at the end there was only Guilliman for my force and

a Predator left on theirs!

I didn't deep strike the Locutarus but they still defeated a unit of assault marines

and a tactical squad! Against anything with a 3+ save they're murder.

As for the rest, I couldn't say, I've never used them.

[Ishagu]

Like Horus, the Ultramarine Primarch is one of the best things about the army.

 

Is he an auto include? He's certainly one of the easiest Primarchs to make use of because his rules are very useful, and he can join a very effective cc unit. He is easy to build a list around, basically.

 

Here's my 2k force for some inspiration:

 

HQ:

-Legion Centurion, Chaplain Consul, Crozius

 

Troops:

-10 Man Tactical Squad, Sgt with Combi Plasma, Rhino

-10 Man Tactical Squad, Sgt with Combi Plasma, Rhino

-5 Invictarus Suzerains, Landraider Phobos, Ceramite Plating

 

Elites:

-Rapier Quad Mortar

-Rapier Quad Mortar

 

Heavy Support:

-Deredeo Dreadnough, Anvilus Autocannon, Aiolos Milssile Launcher, Heavy Bolter

-Legion Sicaran, Las Cannon Sponsons

-Legion Sicaran, Las Cannon Sponsons

 

Lord of War:

-Roboute Guilliman

 

 

 

You can see how my list is arranged, with large volumes of firepower - practically everything has Tank Hunters or Sunder.

 

The Locutarus are definitely viable, Telemechrus would be good if he could take a Lucius Pod, stick to a regular Contemptor instead.

 

I love Praetors but the Primarch invalidates them - his cc ability, survivability and army buffs make them redundant. A Chaplain or a Forge Lord with Rad Grenades make for a cheap and useful HQ (both are perfect for a unit of Suzerains and Primarch).

 

Uriel Ventris would be an ok choice but Guilliman makes him almost redundant as well with his +1ld across the whole army buff. Also, Uriel is very weak in cc - quite disappointing, I was hoping for a Paragon Blade, or a Legatine Axe at least :-/

Edited December 9, 2015 by Ishagu

[Frostmourne]

The thing is, I normally only get to play 30k in organised campaigns. Not a lot of pick up games around my local area.

 

On that note, expect from me soon a blog about our newest Shadow Crusade themed Conquest campaign coming soon.

 

I'd like to keep a Praetor for smaller games, to represent the Tetrarchs and such. I don't necessarily agree with the Primarch appearing in every game. But that's just me.

 

Same as I like to use as many different units as possible. Within the realms of tactically effectiveness lol.

 

And that's the same with Chaplains as I have said somewhere else I think, they didn't have any to speak of, but they did have Librarians and Champions so i find it cool to theme on them.

 

I mean I'm sure that they did have Forge Lords and Chaplains and stuff, but just not 'known' for them.

 

I do plan on doing a DA force soon for these boys to make my Unremembered Empire theme complete. To go with my Units of Space Wolves and Polux led Warders.

 

It's a shame of Ventanus and Telemachus but I do get that :(

[GreyCrow]

Hello guys !

 

Can I get your feedback (tabletop ideally) on 3 units please ?

 

1) Remus Ventanus

2) Outrider Squadrons

3) Skyhunter Squadrons

 

I've been watching documentaries about ancient battles including Roman tactics, and I think the Ultramarines can really apply them on the tabletop, so I'm wondering how these type of cavalry units could fare in a battle ;)

 

Cheers !

[Slips]

Outriders: Cheap Source of Twin-Linked Plasma/Melta and Power Weapons on a mobile frame

 

Jetbikes: Fast, Resilient, Decent Anti-Infantry Firepower and one of the cheaper sources of Squad Wide Melta Bombs (relatively speaking) when one considers that a Melta Bomb Sapper Squad usually requires an Assault Transport, usually a Dreadclaw.

[GreyCrow]

Outriders: Cheap Source of Twin-Linked Plasma/Melta and Power Weapons on a mobile frame

 

Jetbikes: Fast, Resilient, Decent Anti-Infantry Firepower and one of the cheaper sources of Squad Wide Melta Bombs (relatively speaking) when one considers that a Melta Bomb Sapper Squad usually requires an Assault Transport, usually a Dreadclaw.

 

Okay thanks ! Outriders seem more interesting within my framework right now and the build you're suggesting is exactly what I had in mind : 10 strong, 10 TL Plasmaguns, 4 Power Swords.

Scouting somewhere to press the advantage early game in preparation for a redeployment of Rhino mounted tacticals and support squads followed with 2 Land Raiders (1 with Remus + Suzerains, the other with Chainfist Terminators) with a couple of very damaging tanks in support.

 

Basically pulling a Julius Caesar where the goal is to find the spot with the most advantage, throwing an overwhelming force there and seizing the initiative (forcing the opponent to try and counter the strategy rather than countering his).

[Ishagu]

Remus Ventanus is, imo, too weak for his points.

I'd like him a whole lot more if he had a Paragon Blade or a Legatine Axe.

 

His army buffs aren't really THAT significant. If you're taking the Primarch there is no point in even considering him.

 

 

I wouldn't run a unit of 10 Outriders... Ever. They are, when all equipped with special weapons, incredibly expensive and only a single large blast weapon away from ether being destroyed or being forced to jink, making their shooting far less effective.

 

Maybe 2 units of 5 on each flank could work?

Edited December 14, 2015 by Ishagu

[Charlo]

Great grandpa Guilliman! Ten outriders with twin plasma guns, at that point just go with a seeker squad in a pod :P

 

But I know you like the Logos Grey and that stops deep strike correct?

[Slips]

8 Seekers in a Scouting Proteus, yo.

[GreyCrow]

Remus Ventanus is, imo, too weak for his points.

I'd like him a whole lot more if he had a Paragon Blade or a Legatine Axe.

 

His army buffs aren't really THAT significant. If you're taking the Primarch there is no point in even considering him.

 

 

I wouldn't run a unit of 10 Outriders... Ever. They are, when all equipped with special weapons, incredibly expensive and only a single large blast weapon away from ether being destroyed or being forced to jink, making their shooting far less effective.

 

Maybe 2 units of 5 on each flank could work?

 

Yeah these are good poitns for Ventanus. For some reason I feel you take him when you don't take any command squad, but I liked the reserve manipulation with Outriders when needing to Outflank.

 

I was actually planning on running 10 outriders because they are a threat and they are actually survivable due to built in Jink. With such a unit, I'm forcing my opponent to deal with it, and with Scout I can actually grab cover without being forced to Jink except against barrages. The large bases are extremely awesome for a large unit footprint to avoid blasts and large blasts. By spreading them "vertically" (as in coherency from front to back rather than side to side), any large blast will only hit 2 bikers tops when they're conga lining :p

In terms of deployment and strategy, the trick is also not to deploy them and scout them up as a suicide squad. Rather, keep them as a tactical reserve behind the main battle line and Scout them up to the side that I'll want to reinforce the most.

 

I also didn't want to spread into two flanks because I prefer concentrating force into one flank. Although, because there is no penalty for taking small squads except losing a power weapon, running 2 units side by side could actually be viable ;)

 

 

Great grandpa Guilliman! Ten outriders with twin plasma guns, at that point just go with a seeker squad in a pod

 

But I know you like the Logos Grey and that stops deep strike correct?

 

Actually, the goal with that squad is to be able to move about the battlefield and bring support throughout the game, rather than a single decisive action from Seekers ^^ Also use feints with turbo boost to reposition around.

And indeed, within the Logos these units are good for interception and fast moving assaults, especially with a mechanized infantry :) Outflank is very potent, especially on units that can move 12" and shoot, and turbo boost 24".

 

 

8 Seekers in a Scouting Proteus, yo.

 

Could work too !

[Slips]

Honestly, if you're not using Fast Attack Slots, why not 2x 3man TLPG Squads and 1x 4man TLPG squad? Even smaller foot print per unit, same potential fire power, even more mobility and flexibility in terms of usage.

 

You also have threat overload with this.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Slipstreams

[GreyCrow]

Honestly, if you're not using Fast Attack Slots, why not 2x 3man TLPG Squads and 1x 4man TLPG squad? Even smaller foot print per unit, same potential fire power, even more mobility and flexibility in terms of usage.

 

You also have threat overload with this.

 

Could work yeah ! To be honest, I'm not really concerned about the footprint size, bikes are pretty easy to reposition :D Your loadout or 2 x 5 does have the benefit of preventing a total wipe on any single unit for any reason and offer the ability to fire at multiple targets should overkill be a concern.

 

But after seeing what Dark Angels can do, I want 10 damn plasma bikes in my army ! :p

[Hesh Kadesh]

If you want to run Plasma Bikers, share a thought for Word Bearers. Give the unit the VSH and their unique relic.

 

12" scout, 12" move, rapid fire plasma with -2 to invulns. Use belakor to guarantee Shrouding for a 2+ jink.

[Ishagu]

I'd agree with Hesh.

There are better Legions for this unit...

 

If you really want to run it, however, I still think you should run two units of 5 or 3 units of 4 as previously suggested :-)

Edited December 15, 2015 by Ishagu

[Slips]

Hell, even Alpha Legion with Alphie on the Board (PE:E) do it better. But, they pack a decent enough punch and are generic enough of a unit that they can work with any legion.

 

The re-roll of 1s to wound with plasma from Interlocking Tactics also helps make any successful to-hits convert into wounds (its to-wound, right?)

 

As with most things though, Some Legions do some things better than others. 'tis the nature of 30k.

 

Unless you go for bland, generic, Min-maxed out the wazoo lists where the actual Legion Astartes rules/Wargear/Relics make 0 difference. But, we dont see that here so nothing to fear, really.

[Charlo]

If you want to run Plasma Bikers, share a thought for Word Bearers. Give the unit the VSH and their unique relic.

 

12" scout, 12" move, rapid fire plasma with -2 to invulns. Use belakor to guarantee Shrouding for a 2+ jink.

 

That just sound.... Plain not fun for everyone involved :P

 

 

Hell, even Alpha Legion with Alphie on the Board (PE:E) do it better. But, they pack a decent enough punch and are generic enough of a unit that they can work with any legion.

 

The re-roll of 1s to wound with plasma from Interlocking Tactics also helps make any successful to-hits convert into wounds (its to-wound, right?)

 

As with most things though, Some Legions do some things better than others. 'tis the nature of 30k.

 

Unless you go for bland, generic, Min-maxed out the wazoo lists where the actual Legion Astartes rules/Wargear/Relics make 0 difference. But, we dont see that here so nothing to fear, really.

 

This. So much this!

[GreyCrow]

Everybody does something better than the Ultramarines, it's probably the most vanilla of all the Legions :p That doesn't make a unit useless

[Ishagu]

I don't think that's true.

The Ultras are great for morale and synergy between units.

[Seahawk]

Ultramarines are hardly vanilla. 

 

More like blue raspberry delicious.

 

At any rate, everybody does something better than anyone else. Mooooving on back to Ultramarines tactics now!

[GreyCrow]

I don't think that's true.

The Ultras are great for morale and synergy between units.

 

I was thinking on a unit per unit basis, not armywide obviously ;)

 

Ultramarines are indeed good for MSU Combined Arms. Their army is geared to ensure a series of local advantages through combining firepower as well as providing incentives to mount in transports so you can choose where the battle is going to go. Aside from getting transports, squad loadouts are up in the air as long as you've got the basics covered.

[ThatOneMarshal]

See to me looking at the ultras at a unit per unit basis goes against them fundamentally. The ultras are straight up professionals, the closet thing to a space marine legion that works like a normal army, though with key differences of course. A key tenant is that "alone we fall but together we are strong". For an ultra army your individual unit won't excel because it shouldn't. The ultras are the masters of close combat, that's the WE for example. But unlike the WE they can also be good at shooting. Hell, in their rules alone the only thing there good at is takin leadership tests. As soon as they work together you now have units that can become better at shooting and can even reliably reach the enemy for an assault. That enough of me rambling.

 

So here's something that I think is interesting, who gains more from the shooting buff from a mathehammer perspective, a plasma gun support squad with the re roll or a tactical squad with the re roll?

[Caillum]

The change is damage from the re-rolls is the same; +16.66%. But you obviously want the re-roll 1's on your plasma guns to avoid "Gets Hot" and the fact that 16.66% more hits from a plasma gun is better than 16.66% more hits from a bolter. :)

[GreyCrow]

The change is damage from the re-rolls is the same; +16.66%. But you obviously want the re-roll 1's on your plasma guns to avoid "Gets Hot" and the fact that 16.66% more hits from a plasma gun is better than 16.66% more hits from a bolter.

 

It's To Wound rolls So gets hot will work the same.

 

I guess which unit benefits the most really depends. Math hammer wise I'd go for the unit that is able to put more wounds on the enemy. Like Caillum said, it's a straight up 16.50% more wounds on the enemy. Is it better on Bolters or on Plasmaguns ?

Originally I thought that it was better to use that on boltguns on other high ROF weapons when you had the choice, simply because they have the ability to cause many wounds and 16% synchronizes better with large numbers of dice.

 

Example : 20 boltguns versus 10 Plasmaguns (assuming 2 full squads, no Fury, 24" range)

- Boltguns : 6.67 wounds on T4 without IT, 7.77 wounds on T4 with IT, 1,093 additional wounds

- Plasmaguns : 5.556 wounds on T4 without IT, 6.48 wounds on T4 with IT, 0.93 additional wounds

(In Rapid Fire Range, so 40 boltun shots, 20 Plasmaguns)

- Boltguns : 13.33 wounds without IT, 15.55 with IT, 2.22 additional wounds

- Plasmaguns : 11.11 wounds without It, 12.96 wounds with IT or 1.85 additional wounds

 

I'm taking wounds as a baseline here because there are so much saves going on these days that it's a bit clunky to simulate all scenarios. Because the % is the same for all To Wound rolls, I guess which unit you will want to prioritize is depending on which has the ability to throw more dice at the enemy within the turn on a local unit per unit basis.

 

We can argue that AP2 is preferable because it ignores armour, but with 4++ and cover highly accessible, sometimes just drowning the enemy under the volume of dice is more interesting

 

On top of that, in terms of probabilistic distribution, the more dice you throw at any given roll, the more likely you are to reach the average expected outcome, because the amount of dice will tend to peak towards the average due to all possible combinations.

So, rather than looking for an increase in damage output like Sons of Horus or Night Lords, we can look at the Ultramarines Legions as a way to secure the damage output, and mitigate crazy bad dice rolls.

 

Same goes for Certainty and Resolve : With a Sergeant still alive, units have a 16% chance of not regrouping. If the Sergeant is dead, they have a 27% chance of not regrouping or failing their fear check.

With the boost up to 10, they only have a 8% chance to fail this test.

(Didn't factor the Vexilla in, because once again too clumsy for me to calculate at the moment :p).

 

What that means is that if by any chance you fail the Ld Check, even with the rerolls with the Vexilla, you'll be back in the fight in no time.

 

____

 

Both these rules really might not seem much, but they really provide control and reliability over the outcome. And we know control and reliability in a dice game is very valuable.

Conclusion : Ultramarines Legion Tactics are for power gamers :p

Edited December 16, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Captain Idaho]

When people say MSU, what do they mean in a 30K list? Nothing is small or cheap enough to follow traditional 40K convention regarding the term.

[Slips]

When people say MSU, what do they mean in a 30K list? Nothing is small or cheap enough to follow traditional 40K convention regarding the term.

MSU in 30k might mean Minimum Sized Units vs Multiple Small Units in this case hahaha