[HH1.0] 30k Ultramarines tactics

[Sheesh Mode]

I just want to put it on record that I think Guilliman is the 2nd best Primarch in-game (after Horus). Not a fan of Ultramarines in particular, and I have no inclination to collect them, so I'm not being biased here.

 

Firstly, his army-buffing abilities are great:

- Invictarus Suzerains & Legion Terminators as Troops,

- +1 Ld to his whole army,

- force his opponent to re-roll successful Seize The Initiative,

- choose a unit and give it Tank Hunters, Implacable Advance or Interceptor (fantastic opportunities here).

 

Ok, so Suzerains as Troops is useful, given they are a really good unit, and Terminators are fine if you want them too. +1 Ld is a decent buff too, more than likely giving everyone Ld 10. And making your opponent re-roll a successful Seize The Initiative will save your bacon occasionally.

 

But being able to choose any unit and give it a select rule is amazing. 3 Sicarans with lascannons? Give them Tank Hunters. A couple of Contemptor talons? Implacable Advance will give them a lot more versatility. 9 dakka Predators? Interceptor on nearly 120 shots is a scary prospect (yes, probably a crazy concept, but still...). This rewards taking a single unit multiple times, so think carefully about how you'd do this.

 

Secondly, his personal abilities are great:

- re-roll a single Invulnerable Save each PHASE (much more powerful than it sounds),

- +1 WS in a challenge after each round (again, more powerful than it sounds),

- he and his unit re-roll failed charges and are immune to Concussive,

- a choice of 2 decent weapons - the Gladius Incandor (a Paragon blade with Shred) & the Hand of Dominion (a Strength 10 AP 1 Concussive chainfist). Together they grant an additional attack.

 

His Invulnerable save re-roll is deceptively good, as often it takes a lot to get a wound through anyway. Hit him with a Medusa shell? Re-roll that 2 and pass his save. In a challenge, this is great for keeping him going, thereby buffing his WS each round and making him better in combat.

 

He can murder troops or vehicles with his choice of weapons. The Galdius Incandor will mulch any infantry - add a Forge Lord with rad grenades to help mince those 2-Wound models and deny FNP (and being immune to Concussive, he and his Suzerains will continue to strike at Initiative against Firedrakes or Castellax). The Hand of Dominion will end any vehicle/MC, or bring an enemy Primarch down to Initiative 1 - note it is not Strength x2, so it can't be de-buffed.

 

His stats are very standard fair for a Primarch, but he is a real Dark Horse. Primarch on Primarch fights are a grindfest, with the game often ending before anyone dies, but he should eventually win against everyone bar Horus (check the maths if you don't believe me). Most of the time it doesn't come to this, as Primarchs tend to die to massed firepower (lol Vulkan) or Typhon treads, but it is something in his favour. The combination of a S10 Concussive weapon, the WS boost each round and the Invulnerable save re-roll is the reason for this.

 

Unlike some Primarchs that only fight well, or others that only buff well, Guilliman has the best of both worlds (for only 400 points). Underestimate him at your peril.

His only major competition is Perturabo, who is more expensive, less effective in assault, and more focused on a specific form of gunline with terminator support. 

 

Horus is a different topic entirely.

[Hesh Kadesh]

All that math and it doesn't help you hold objectives. Marines are easily killed. They are wet paper bags compared to the Titan destroying weaponry on show.

 

A Rhino has several applications. For 40pts it has 2-4 TL'd shots to generate TL. That generates the rerolls to wound or pen if important.

 

It is also fast. It turns a late game stutter step to objective claim from 6+d6 to 12+d6. It can also bullrush enemies off objectives. And it can likely spend most of the game sat in reserves until turn 4, rerolling success if possible and late game objective grab.

 

It is av11; most armour requisites are there in 40k to deal with ulta high AV and HP Triaros, Spartan, Dracosan and Typhon while mid strength weapons like missile launchers, lascannons or even Kheres/culverins are anti infantry repurposed or wasting an entire tanks shooting when we know what they'd rather be shooting. They are wasting 8-12 infantry eaters just to open a can.

 

That can won't open easily by comparison. It is 3HP's, which while more expensive than 3 marines, is much harder to kill. Firstly, opponents Marines have nothing to put their shots into other than what you allow them to. Between Dreadclaws and clever deployment with rhinos to hide LoS, this shouldn't be anything that isn't t6+ or outright immune anyway.

 

So, chucking 750pts into tacticals sounds and looks undeniably awesome, but they can't actually do anything aside from holding objectives and going to ground. Which leaves you dog meat for an artillery vindicator or typhon strike.

[Caillum]

His only major competition is Perturabo, who is more expensive, less effective in assault, and more focused on a specific form of gunline with terminator support.

Yeah, Perturabo occurred to me too, but you've summed him up there perfectly. Many of them do a bit of both, but some tend to be lacking (or outright useless) in one role or the other. Angron does nothing for his army (which is quite fluffy, I might add) and Dorn will die if Horus sneezes in his direction.

 

Don't get me wrong - Primarchs are still great! Guilliman and Horus just win out.

[GreyCrow]

@Hesh : Oh, I definitely agree with you that Tactical squads in Rhinos are the best fit for the sons of Guilliman. Like you said, they'll get beat to a pulp by any form of efficient artillery pattern :) Well, literally they'll be pulp :p

I just wanted a stress test to see how how well would survive. I'm really starting to think that 20 men Tactical squads *could* work, but only in a very specific type of list and not within the Logos (because like you said, 60 Marines + 3 Apothecaries comes to around 900 points...).

 

On top of that, they trigger the Interlocking tactics for a 35 points investment. Go combined arms ! I'm thinking that this is no different for the logos, in fact one could argue that the Logos pushes for Rhinos.

 

Actually, your point about late game objective grabbing (12+d6 compared to 6+d6, which makes a lot of sense indeed) made me want to go further in analyzing the Logos' bonuses :

1) Full march : On foot, we have 6 + d6" rerollable, while mounted in Rhinos we have 6 + 6 + d6" rerollable, so we can reliably ensure around 16" movement from the Tactical Squad when needed, compared to around 10". So, yeah, Rhinos maximize the Full March by adding a flat 6".

2) Hold Fast : Statistically speaking, it might seem interesting to have 40 Bolter shots on BS2 overwatching to maximize the amount of hits in overwatch. But, if we look at it the other way, BS2 actually doubles the amount of hits over BS1. 40 Bolter shots hitting on 6 yield 6.67 hits, while 20 Bolter shots hitting on 5s also yield 6.67 hits. Effectively we can argue that with that doctrine on, a 10 men Tactical Squad hits like a 20 men Tactical squad when it comes to Snap Shots, further driving towards 10 in Rhinos.

3) Retribution Strike : Same analysis as above. It literally doubles the output of the squad's melee attacks when it gets charged, so charging a 10 men squad with this doctrine is akin to charging a 20 men squad with this doctrine as well, all things considered (the charging enemy will still inflict the same number of hits and casualties, and combat will be resolved exactly the same).

 

So yeah, we could argue that the Logos actually favours transport mounted units by offering them bonuses to maximize their movement speed and also counteract their low numbers in melee. Lack of tanks will still be an issue but with the proper amount of Heavy Support Squads as well as HQs unlocking tank slots, as well as dedicated transports it could be argued that it's actually relatively tank friendly :p

 

I'm posting an updated list in the Army List section to test that theory, I'd really appreciate comments !

[Ishagu]

I'd rather have Solar Auxilia on foot. 100 points for 20 guys with guns that fire twice at 30" range. Also unlocks those mighty Malcadors with the scary Infernus cannons :-)

 

The absolute perfect allies for the Venerated Ultramarines.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Ishagu

[Charlo]

I'd rather have Solar Auxilia on foot. 100 points for 20 guys with guns that fire twice at 30" range. Also unlocks those mighty Malcadors with the scary Infernus cannons :-)

 

The absolute perfect allies for the Venerated Ultramarines.

 FTFY ;)

 

I totally agree on Guilliman too. He's a monster, in all aspects. His rules are actually sickeningly good when you look at some of the older Primarch's (Bar Horus).

 

I really hope that FW didn't make the "traitor" Primarchs intentionally weaker for when they get Daemon forms so that there is still room to buff them, if that makes sense.

 

Mortarion for example, I love him and he has his Niche's but it's just that, a niche. He destorys multi wound models but unwieldy? Eurgh. Plus he can hardly touch big AV.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Unwieldy is there to make Sweep Attack functional. That sweep sucks is beside the point. (he has 6 attacks on the chargem you"d be lucky to fit 6 32mm bases around him even after pile in).

 

Houserule it as Rampage.

[Charlo]

I know your feelings on it Hesh ;) twas just an example of how they might be designing the traitor Primarchs to be "weaker" so they have more to buff when the go warp crazy

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm not sure what metric were using when declaring weak. Horus is extremely well rounded in buffing and combat, lorgar gets to pick and choose psychic powers and is one of the best primarch fighters, mortarion and curze are some of the most mobile primarchs in the game, as well as being very durable and chew through all kinds of stuff, perturabo has imo some of the strongest support buffs in the game (turn one reserves is insane), and fulgrim has insane value by unlocking infiltrate along with his other buffs and cc potential. Also Alpharius with his shenans, giving your entire army PE is great. Really the only dud is angron, and that's because of his save, otherwise he's the only primarch that can smash through knights with ease

[Hesh Kadesh]

Eh. Angron's not really a dud. 12" Fearless is better than it looks thanks to the rubber band effect, and he eats people thanks to S8 armourbane attacks and an inability to be challenge locked by a Chosen Warriors unit. I'd like him to be better; 6 wounds and a 2+ save is looking decidely 'weak' already with t7 7 wounds rerolling IWND, or rerollable 4++ save knocking about, but he is a glass cannon that will munch anything he engages.

 

But yes. Angrons is the weakest, as in easily killed. Weakest is relative though. He will spit out the bones of pretty much most any other point equivalent non strength d armed walker he is up against, and even then...

[Caillum]

Yeah, they are all pretty awesome in their own ways. Some of them need a list built around them, Guilliman included.

 

With regards to the Traitors being weaker - I totally disagree Charlo. Skimask summed that up already though.

[GreyCrow]

Plus, Angron with Initiative 7 and a Bajillon attacks with Hatred is pretty nice ! He's definitely not weak. Against other Primarchs, only the Invulnerable save matters, and against other infantry you'd probably charge with other units as well.

 

On a side note, the Heresy is cool and all, but now I'll have to explain to my dates why I have to cancel our appoinments...

 

[Flint13]

Angron is indeed awesome and a glass cannon. Its super fun to kill a Knight titan before it can swing when it charges you.

 

Let's ease it back into Ultramarines though. Please and thanks ^_^

[BassWave]

Soo I'm starting an Ultramarine army, but I have no idea where to start. I want to build an army that reflects the tactical flexibility that the legion is known for. Where do I even start as far as list building? Also, are the special terminators with cyclone missile launchers worth it? What about the special assault squad?

[Hesh Kadesh]

I think a same spot is the Betrayal at Calth set.

 

Saves you something like 45% over buying nearest GW analogues, and nearer 75% on the Forge World Resins. Bargain bar none, and eben if you don't use all the options, you are still quids in.

 

If you've got the rulebooks (The Legiones Astartes Crusade Army list red book, and Book V Tempest include the minimum rules necessary, although Book IV Conquest includes a single relic that is unique to the UM amd 6 other generic ones, but largely unnecesary) you'll know that Rites of War which modify the list are available at 1k points and above, with Age of Darkness FoC (+1HQ, +1 elites).

 

If you have a particular theme in mind, there are several you can go with.

 

Drop Pods, Orbital Strike; okay. Not as strong as 30k due to loss of units which cannot deep strike.

 

Armoured Spearhead; Land Raiders are available as Heavy Support anyway in squadrons of 1-3, and at 200+ pts each for infantry units to get a pair of TL lascannons amd some minor bonuses to tank shocking, it isn't worth it unless you really really want land raiders. I don't think I've ever seen a serious list in a reasonable points range that made use of this rite.

 

Angels Wrath; not really sold on this yet. But a Locutarus Storm Squad with Hit and Run and Rerolling 1's to wound combined with 2 Shot Plasma Pistols could be an intriguing combo, if not game breakingly powerful. Very nice assassin unit to take out things like Command Squads or Palatine Blades. Assault Squads in general are quite expensive when taken though, and if you run Tactical Squads, you must have either a Deathclaw Pod as a budget option or a Storm eagle (the latter as a DT). At a minimum of 360pts for the latter, and taking benefit of assault squads and locutarus, you have a lot of expensive, if reasonably capable antiinfantry (280pts for 10 Assault Marines with 3 nr Power Weapons), but no AT (outside of 45-50pt upgrades to take missole launcher or multimelta, and lascannons on the Eagles) to speak of, it becomes a bit tight on points, compounded by the fact that the most effective AT in such a list (which has similar restrictions IiRC to Orbital assault) are from fast attack rather than elites, and locutarus share that spot (again, IIRC).

 

Pride of the Legion, and Chosen Duty. The latter is only available as a PDF (search for Autilon Skarr rules, until book VI gives the rules for a delegatus, this is a new consul option to gain master of the legion and it ckmes with a unique Rite of War). Pride lets you take Terminators as troops. Frees up hefty elite slots. Good for a starter list, but take many squads rather than big squads. More felxible, and less risk of losing a squad to a bad round of combat and being swept. Also, your opponent gains VP's if they all die. This is bad.

 

Chosen Duty is similar, but with Vets only, rather than Terms. All you have to do is protect your Delegatus, rather than hope.all your squads don't get killed.

 

Failing that, there is the Ultramarines unique rite of war. There are a LOT of concessions and force limitations to play that list. I'm not a fan, and I don't like the limitations as it is completely against my style of play. I like drop pods. And it bans Deep Strike. Either way, aside from that, it brings some neat little benefits, but nothing that especially mitigates what I don't personally like.

 

Ultramarines as they stand are not game breakingly powerful, but they don't necessarily have pretty sucky rules like Emperor's Children, who are now constantly getting outdated and having their previous niches undercut. They are forgiving though.

 

As for units, after Calth set, a pair of Rhinos. They will never not be good, are better in UM than most other lists, and if you just get the plastic ones, less expensive than other vehicles.

 

Other options; rapiers. Best unit in the game. Graviton for Heavy AT, Quad Guns for everything else.

 

Fulmentarus Terminators i fimd too expensive for Cyclones. I'd rather ally in Iron Warriors for Siege Tyrants at that cost.

[GreyCrow]

Soo I'm starting an Ultramarine army, but I have no idea where to start. I want to build an army that reflects the tactical flexibility that the legion is known for. Where do I even start as far as list building? Also, are the special terminators with cyclone missile launchers worth it? What about the special assault squad?

 

For tactical flexibility, right off the bat I would go without any standard Rite of War and consider the Logos at larger points game only (because at lower points you don't want to be stuck on spending lots of points on Troops). Rites of War imho are a go big or go home scenario to really specialize your force into one specific kind of warfare and maximizing your advantage there.

 

Like Hesh said, the Rhino is always a sound investment, especially in the Logos Rite of War. Shooting with the Rhino triggers Interlocking Tactics, and the Logos' benefits mitigates having smaller squads (Hold Fast essentially doubles your overwatch firepower so it's as if you were running 20 men Tactical Squads, Retribution Strike also doubles the number of attacks you throw essentially acting as if you had double the number of Marines). Also, the fluff in Tempest says that Guilliman wanted each company to feature large stockpiles of Rhinos (under Armoured Forces of the Ultramarines), so there you go if Iron Hands say your force is not fluffy :p

 

For list building, start with a decent core of Troops units, and my personal rule of thumb is that the minimal investment to make them long lasting enough is either go for full infantry at max size, either for min squad in transports :)

Also, design your army as a system where units work together and support each other both actively and passively, rather than mix and matching units that are good on their own. For example, running 2 Tactical Squads in Rhinos will be good if the rest of your army is mechanized or features some tanks, because you have saturation of a similar targets making it harder for the enemy to prioritize : Does he go for your Vindicators ? Or does he go for the Rhinos with the squads in it that might not be an immediate threat but will have to be dealt with less they mess up his board control ?

 

If going full infantry, make sure that the Tanks you field are durable enough. For example, a Predator Strike Squadron works well in a Rhino spam with some Land Raiders here and there because there are many targets that don't make the Predators particularily threatening, and it is good because it's not super resilient as a tank (plus, you can field up to 3 giving your further advantage in the number of vehicles).

On the other hand, when you only have a few tanks on the table, Super Heavies, Spartans, Scorpiuses, Sicarans or Fliers will help a lot because they are more resilient than the basic predator, and invest points to make them survivable enough (Armoured Ceramite, etc).

 

Finally, the last piece of advice I can give you is that when picking a unit, be honest with yourself about its efficiency based on its profile. Run some mock up calculations to get a feel of what the unit will do under the worst circumstances against the targets you want to down. Example : Marines in 4+ Cover, Rhinos in 4+ cover, AV14 in 4+ Cover. Because if you're well aware of the performance of your unit in the worst case scenario, you can only have good surprises on the battlefield when it ourperforms its average worst case performance :) And be sure the opponent is going to make sure your units aren't allowed to perform in their optimal configurations.

 

Oh yeah, and one last advice : one unit = one target type if you want to be efficient so be cohesive when putting gear options (like you're forced to do in Support Squads and Heavy Support squads). This is simply because 30k/40k is a numbers' game and that individual pieces of equipment just do not have the destructive power to be played alone. By limiting your number of attacks of a specific type, you're also exposing yourself to not doing enough.

For example, even though mixed loadouts on units like Terminators are pretty cool to look at, each weapon isn't destructive enough that other weapons are being forced to perform in suboptimal uses. Example : a single Chainfist in a Power Sword squad will not do much when facing infantry, and will only average roughly 0.90 hull points on a Dreadnought in melee. If the Chainfist was Strength D, or if a Pair of Lightning Claws would give +4 attacks to the bearer then yes running a single item would be great, but it isn't the case.

______

 

Regarding the Ultramarines special units, I've mainly thought on the Suzerains and the Fulmentarus :

1) Suzerains : They're your better version of the Command Squad, and they are best used when going after/defending against enemy strong Terminators units. Because they strike prior to them if the Terminators are equipped with AP2 (or they don't care about AP3 as much) and because they will either have the same number of attacks (if they get charged) or more (if they charge), they're here if you want a heroic Command squad :)

2) Fulmentarus : Now, there are two ways to look at it, either as a Heavy Heavy Support Squad or as Heavy Terminator Squad. Their special rules are pretty neat and they cost the same as a Heavy Support Squad with the same amount of missiles per turn with an attached Siege Breaker to give them Tank Hunters. The difference is that they have a 2+ save, a built in 4+ invulnnerable so you can be more liberal in your placement and rules that allow them to diminish cover.

Also, their attacks apply to their melee upgrades.

One issue with them is that they are much more vulnerable to high amount of anti-infantry firepower, as each Terminator lost equals 2 Heavy Support Squads lost. But conversely, they're also harder to take down with 2+ saves.

 

Tank Hunters is pretty neat on them for sure. I'm currently working on different loadouts (including mechanized variants), because even though it's a primarily shooty unit with BS5 and good weapons and special rules, I wouldn't discount their melee prowess just yet.

[BassWave]

Thank you gentlemen. I honestly can't decide what theme to build my army around though. If only assault marines weren't absurdly priced...

 

So no one has tried the locutarus storm?

[GreyCrow]

Well, they're a bit strange but pretty good at the same time. At 10 men, they're barely more expensive than a regular Assault Squad (35 points more and you get 2+ and Power Weapons all around). This is a sweet deal, for sure ! Their Deep Strike shenanigans sound good too, especially double tapping the weapons.

 

My main beef with them is that they're primarily an anti-infantry squad and you already have lots of anti-infantry firepower in the forms of your compulsory Troops choices. Also, when you Deep Strike them, you want to shoot them, but at the same time you're letting yourself vastly open for a welcome pie (plate) from Plasma Heavy Support Squads with Augury Scanners and Typhons on the next turn.

If I were to kit them it would be 10 guys with Power Swords (or maaaaaaybe Axes if I wanted to bet on them tanking with their 2+) and 3 Plasma Pistols, really cherry picking which fight they want to get in and not necessarily going for the trap of throwing them all to get their double tap. It's better to ensure they use their melee weapons (and so survive the initial Salvo) than trying to use their gimmick ;)

[Captain Idaho]

They can't swap out power swords mind.

 

I'm going for an army theme of 30 Breachers in 2 units of 15, 9 power swords in each plus the Sergeant and his fist/Artificer armour combo. It might not be amazing but I figured it'd be fun to play horde Marines lol. They are backed up by a 15 strong Tactical squad. Used to work well for Templars after all.

 

In addition to this I'm going 2x Sicarians, Contemptor and Deredeo plus a Land Raider carrying Praetor and squad.

 

Of course I'm thinking of Apothecaries etc, but my main point is in this set up I'm actually able to take the Ultramarines Rite. I get what GreyCrow has been saying in that regard.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Captain Idaho

[Captain Idaho]

Ah wait, couldn't find points for things like Master of Signals etc. Screw it, standard Age of Darkness chart instead.

[Slips]

Nothing wrong with running RoW-Less :P

[GreyCrow]

@Captain : Oh yeah you're right, sorry I read it as Power Weapons ;)

[Seahawk]

What about doubling down on veteran skills with Guilliman?

 

Such as Tank Hunters or Intercept combo with Sniper, or TH with Intercept... if that's feasible, what weapons? 

[Slips]

The most versatile would be the missile launcher due to the Krakk Missile being able to tackle more than the ither weapon options.

 

Sniper Interceptor Heavy Flamers would be damn nasty though!

[Seahawk]

I thought there was a general lack of deep striking in 30k...or am I mistaken there? I wish there were heavy flamer bits in the BaC box to do just that.

 

I also now giggle at the thought of a sniping krak missile.