The DA FAQ request : let's centralize everything guys !

[Solrac]

@Valorousheart: The Darkshroud and the Land Speeders count as one unit before the game starts. There is no instance where they were separate units to get the buff and then join together. Rules as written is states "Friendly unit with the Dark Angels faction". The Darkshroud's own unit meets that criteria ergo it gives Stealth to it's own unit however the Darkshroud itself does not benefit due to the exception in it's rules. Now if it said "Other Friendly units..." then I would be inclined to agree with you as this would clearly state units other than it's own but that's not how it's written.

 

@marti350: There is no joining of separate units that occurs. The formation dictates "All vehicles in this Formation must form a single Vehicle Squadron as described in the warhammer 40,000 rules". They are part of the same unit as a squadron when you pay the points even before you put them on the table. This not not the same as an Independent Character joining a unit during deployment as an IC is separate until you decide how to deploy it. Rules as Written the Upwash rule doesn't have anything in it that says it only applies to Land Speeders nor does it say that it's rules do not confer to different vehicle types within the squadron so from a strict RAW point of view Upwash applies to anything in the same unit as long as there are minimum 3 Land Speeders still alive.

[Elios Harg]

Likewise on the stealth point, the dark shroud itself NEVER has stealth. The other landspeeders do. If they all die before the dark shroud, it loses the benefit as no models in the unit have stealth any longer. It's only even a point if you want to not jink as shrouded itself brings you to 2+ re-roll. But the unit will have a 4+ cover in the open without jink so long as one RW landspeeder lives

[Cactus]

 

Ezekiel's new Book of Salvation says it grants +1A at the start of the fight sub-phase to the end of that phase.  Does this mean that unlike say Hatred, each Fight Sub-Phase will continue to generate +1A.

 

As written, it's a straight +1A...but then why not say that?  Sadly, it may be intended to give you a libby and a chappy in the same model....but then again, why not give Zeke the zealot USR, if that's the intent?  Wow...this one is so crappily worded that neither RAW nor RAI is any help!!!!

 

What's the problem here? During the fight sub-phase affected models have +1 attack. They don't have the bonus at other times during the turn. Obviously it applies in every turn because it doesn't have the explicit limitation that hatred has.

[Guest]

Q. For the love of all thats Holy and I will sacrifice many to Khorne allow my Apothecaries to access the Armoury.

[shabbadoo]

 

Don't think this needs to be in here:

 

Q : Ravenwing Support squadron (p143) : The ravenwing support squadron description states that a Darkshroud and the LS form one single unit. the Darkshroud has the Shrouded USR, does this mean that the shrouded special rule of the Darkshroud extends to the other members of it's unit and that all the squadron has the shrouded special rule?

 

The answer is yes. The Shrouded USR clearly states "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts it's cover save as being 2 points better than normal" (p 170).

 

As per the formation they count as one unit so as long as the Darkshroud is alive the whole unit gets shrouded.

 

In addition they should also receive the Darkshroud's Stealth as the Icon of Old Caliban rule states: Friendly unit with the Dark Angel's faction within 6" of one or more Ravenwing Darkshroud's gain the Fear and Stealth special rules (though it does not affect the Darkshroud themselves)".

 

They themselves count as a friendly unit so the Land Speeders would also get Stealth however the Darkshroud does not. I believe this to be the case as the rule only states "though it does not affect the Darkshroud themselves" not "It does not affect the Darkshroud unit".

 

So the LS in this formation have a standard 4+ cover save without having to jink and get their 2+ re-rollable jink save.

It seems like you might be double dipping here to get both rules.

Darkshroud states that it can't claim the benefit of the stealth that it gives out to other units with in range.

So the landspeeders are a seperate unit just long enough to get stealth and then you are joining the darksroud and claiming that the speeders and darkshroud get both.

 

But wouldn't the rule that prevents the Darkshroud from benefiting from its own stealth also prevent the other memebers of its unit from getting stealth?

Instead shouldn't they just have shrouded.

 

Right. It is double dipping by claiming the Land Speeders *have* the Stealth rule, which they do not- they gain the Stealth rule, but do not have the Stealth rule in the first place. If they did have the Stealth rule in the first place then all models in the squadron - including the Darkshroud - would gain the rule, but that is not the case.  So, just Shrouded for the Darkshroud and Stealth fo the speeders, because you don't transfer a rule to models that don't have it, and then they in turn transfer it back to the model it came from.  Assuming that it works like this is the fundamental flaw in Elios Harg's and Solrac's thinking.  Rules transfer from models that have the rule to models that don't have the rule. So, do Ravenwing Land Speeders *come with* the Stealth rule?  No, so they transfer nothing to the Darkshroud because they have nothing to transfer in the first place.  Not that the rules for the Icon of Old Caliban makes it abundantly clear how things work in its parenthetical statement or anything as it regards any Darkshrouds...

[Master Avoghai]

Concerning the Darkshroud issue : I think the question is worth to be kept for 2 reasons :

 

- The shrouded expansion. I think it's worth checking if it's a right understanding as the rule differs slightly. It's not an IC joining another unit he's allowed to join. It's 2 units that are normally not allowed to join each other that are joined by a formation speciaal rule.

 

- The stealth issue : forgot to add it first but will. Here the problem is that this new unit is composed of a model that is forbidden to profit from a bonus and models that could profit from this bonus :wacko:

[MinamotoKansuke]

Kind of similar to the Land Raider deployment question:

 

Q: Deathwing Strike Force (p.158)

Restrictions say that all models have to have the Deathwing special rule.

This would mean that Azrael, Asmodai, Ezekiel, Interrogator-Chaplain, Librarian and Company Master can be taken.

 

However, Summoned to War rule states that all models have to be deployed by Deep Strike.

This is not a problem for Interrogator-Chaplain, Librarian and Company Master if they have TDA purchased,

but how are Azrael, Asmodai and Ezekiel supposed to be deployed? Or are they simply not allowed in this detachment?

[SprinkKnoT]

I don't think this needs to be FAQd and is more of me being confused, but firing overwatch at BS 2,3,etc. doesn't mean we get to overwatch with blast correct? They are still snapshots despite the fact that they are higher BS right? 

Also does strafing run get added in on top of the BS2 for overwatch?

[Master Avoghai]

@MinamotoKensuke :Indeed it's problematic...

 

The more I see the rules, the more I think the battle force were first created to be played normally without special DS rules and they then put a special DS rule for mirroring the redemption force but didn't realize all the collateral issues...

 

@sprinknot : yup it's still ovewatch but with better BS. As it's still overwatch, blast weapons are forbidden

[Guest]

I really wish we could get a standard Company Master with the Ravenwing rule... Not all successors have damned Jetbikes :(

[MoonPhoenix]

 

 

Can't be, as ravenshield is locked to RWSS and sableclaw cannot join the unit. There is nothing that grants sableclaw ravenshield that I'm seeing in the codex.

 

 

Yep, my fault.

[3DJutsu]

Ah, I have one. The eternal relic struggle.

 

Concerning relics am I:

 

A) Swapping a SINGLE weapon for a SINGLE relic for a character one time (i.e. No combining Foe-Smiter and MoR); if so how does this affect the Shroud and the Eye as they do not swap any weapons out.

 

-or-

 

B) Swapping a weapon for a relic on a 1-1 basis up to as many weapons that I have (typically speaking, two)

 

[Elios Harg]

 

 

 

Don't think this needs to be in here:

 

Q : Ravenwing Support squadron (p143) : The ravenwing support squadron description states that a Darkshroud and the LS form one single unit. the Darkshroud has the Shrouded USR, does this mean that the shrouded special rule of the Darkshroud extends to the other members of it's unit and that all the squadron has the shrouded special rule?

 

The answer is yes. The Shrouded USR clearly states "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts it's cover save as being 2 points better than normal" (p 170).

 

As per the formation they count as one unit so as long as the Darkshroud is alive the whole unit gets shrouded.

 

In addition they should also receive the Darkshroud's Stealth as the Icon of Old Caliban rule states: Friendly unit with the Dark Angel's faction within 6" of one or more Ravenwing Darkshroud's gain the Fear and Stealth special rules (though it does not affect the Darkshroud themselves)".

 

They themselves count as a friendly unit so the Land Speeders would also get Stealth however the Darkshroud does not. I believe this to be the case as the rule only states "though it does not affect the Darkshroud themselves" not "It does not affect the Darkshroud unit".

 

So the LS in this formation have a standard 4+ cover save without having to jink and get their 2+ re-rollable jink save.

It seems like you might be double dipping here to get both rules.

Darkshroud states that it can't claim the benefit of the stealth that it gives out to other units with in range.

So the landspeeders are a seperate unit just long enough to get stealth and then you are joining the darksroud and claiming that the speeders and darkshroud get both.

 

But wouldn't the rule that prevents the Darkshroud from benefiting from its own stealth also prevent the other memebers of its unit from getting stealth?

Instead shouldn't they just have shrouded.

Right. It is double dipping by claiming the Land Speeders *have* the Stealth rule, which they do not- they gain the Stealth rule, but do not have the Stealth rule in the first place. If they did have the Stealth rule in the first place then all models in the squadron - including the Darkshroud - would gain the rule, but that is not the case. So, just Shrouded for the Darkshroud and Stealth fo the speeders, because you don't transfer a rule to models that don't have it, and then they in turn transfer it back to the model it came from. Assuming that it works like this is the fundamental flaw in Elios Harg's and Solrac's thinking. Rules transfer from models that have the rule to models that don't have the rule. So, do Ravenwing Land Speeders *come with* the Stealth rule? No, so they transfer nothing to the Darkshroud because they have nothing to transfer in the first place. Not that the rules for the Icon of Old Caliban makes it abundantly clear how things work in its parenthetical statement or anything as it regards any Darkshrouds...

There is nothing in the rules for the icon, stealth or shrouded that would prevent the ravenwing landspeeders from being granted stealth from the icon. In fact, if they did not specifically prohibit the darkshrouds from being affected by the icon they would gain the rule as a friendly dark angels unit within 6" of themself. The rules for both shrouded and stealth state than "a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule..."

 

There is no "transferring" of the rule back to the dark shroud. The dark shroud never has stealth. It doesn't need stealth, as long as a single model in the unit stealth and the landspeeders do as they gain it from being within 6" of the dark shroud.

 

Now here is a caveat. If your unit is arranged such that a landspeeder gets destroyed and none a within 6" of the Dark Shroud anymore, the landspeeders would lose stealth instantly until they move back closer together because the Dark Shroud cannot gain stealth from the icon. They would, however still have shrouded benefits because the Dark Shroud has it still.

 

Also, your claim that to "transfer" a rule a model has to innately have the rule means that no rules can ever be gained during gameplay as they do not function. Dark Shrouds, therefore, do not provide stealth to anyone because for stealth to work, the unit must contain a model that "has" the stealth rule. By your logic, the units that "gain" stealth from the Dark Shroud do not actually "have" stealth and, thus, cannot benefit from the stealth rule.

 

By the way, special rules no longer "transfer" typically. Instead the rules are written such as they affect "a model with this rule", "a unit that contains a model with this rule" or "a unit composed entirely of models with this rule."

[shabbadoo]

You misunderstand. The Darkshroud cannot gain Stealth from the land speeders. If you think that the rules tell you it can, you are beyond utterly wrong. For a model to share a rule, it has to inherently have that rule (i.e. have it listed under its unit entry special rules), or otherwise specifically state somewhere that it does so and under what circumstances (as in the Darkshroud's case, where the Icon of Old Caliban states who gets what and how in contradiction to the core rules). Land Speeders do NOT have the Stealth rule- they gain the Stealth rule from the Darkshroud sharing it with them.  A unit cannot share a shared special rule with other units- only the actual model with the rule can do so, and in this case the Darkshroud doesn't share Stealth with itself (or any other Darkshroud for that matter), as is blatantly stated in its rules. So, a Darkshroud will never also have Stealth unless it gets if from some allied unit from some other army that has the Stealth special rule and can somehow share it wit the Darkshroud.

 

Anybody not getting that?

[twopounder]

You misunderstand. The Darkshroud cannot gain Stealth from the land speeders. If you think that the rules tell you it can, you are beyond utterly wrong. For a model to share a rule, it has to inherently have that rule (i.e. have it listed under its unit entry special rules), or otherwise specifically state somewhere that it does so and under what circumstances (as in the Darkshroud's case, where the Icon of Old Caliban states who gets what and how in contradiction to the core rules). Land Speeders do NOT have the Stealth rule- they gain the Stealth rule from the Darkshroud sharing it with them.  A unit cannot share a shared special rule with other units- only the actual model with the rule can do so, and in this case the Darkshroud doesn't share Stealth with itself (or any other Darkshroud for that matter), as is blatantly stated in its rules. So, a Darkshroud will never also have Stealth unless it gets if from some allied unit from some other army that has the Stealth special rule and can somehow share it wit the Darkshroud.

 

Anybody not getting that?

 

Source?

 

By your definition, if you gain $5, you do not have that $5, and this makes no sense in any world we live on. If you gain something, you have it unless that codex says otherwise. A special rule that is conferred means those models who receive it "have it" until it is removed from them.

 

If a model does not have a rule, it cannot, EVER, use the rule. There are no exceptions to this. RAW, the shroud would gain stealth from the unit it just gave it to because if at least one model in the unit has stealth, they all have stealth. It just can't give stealth directly to itself.

 

And all of this arguing is moot because the unit has Shroud and you can't have both shroud and stealth anyway - you can only improve your cover by +2 and shroud is already doing that.

[3DJutsu]

shroud and stealth are stackable iirc.

[twopounder]

shroud and stealth are stackable iirc.

 

Not in this edition. Both Shroud AND Stealth say that you cannot improve your cover save by more than 2 points. Shroud is already improving it by 2 points, ergo they don't stack.

[Solrac]

@Shabbadoo: I was never arguing that the Darkshroud gained Stealth from itself in fact I clearly stated that it never gains Stealth as per its own rules. The question that was put forward was would the Land Speeders in it's own unit gain Stealth and the answer is yes as I explained. Not sure where the confusion occurred.

[shabbadoo]

You are vindicated then!

Twopounder> These rules do not exist, but imagine they did...

A Black Templars special character has a special rule called Fanatic Fervor. This rule states that a unit the character joins gains the Rending and Hatred rules, excepting any Novices in the unit who do not gain either. Seems pretty clear that the Novices get squat, right? Under your interpretation, the Novices will be getting those rules after all, but not from the special character himself, but from the regular Black Templars Space Marines in the squad who now have this rule to share (without restrictions even) because it was shared to them.

Does this describe how you believe the core rules to work with regard to special rules and the sharing of them? Not being sarcastic, not being snide, just an honestly curious question as to whether this describes how you think things work.

[Solrac]

@twopunder: You need to read the rules again dude. Both the Shrouded and Stealth special rules state "Cover save bonuses from the Shrouded and Stealth special rules are cumulative (to a maximum of a 2+ cover save)."

 

Note that it says to a maximum of a 2+ cover save not to a maximum of +2 to it's cover save.

[Elios Harg]

You are vindicated then!

Twopounder> These rules do not exist, but imagine they did...

A Black Templars special character has a special rule called Fanatic Fervor. This rule states that a unit the character joins gains the Rending and Hatred rules, excepting any Novices in the unit who do not gain either. Seems pretty clear that the Novices get squat, right? Under your interpretation, the Novices will be getting those rules after all, but not from the special character himself, but from the regular Black Templars Space Marines in the squad who now have this rule to share (without restrictions even) because it was shared to them.

Does this describe how you believe the core rules to work with regard to special rules and the sharing of them? Not being sarcastic, not being snide, just an honestly curious question as to whether this describes how you think things work.

This is nothing like the situation with Dark Shrouds. I will amend your example to work like Dark Shrouds in a Support Squadron.

A Black Templar character has a special rule called Fanatic Fervor. Any unit joined by Fanatic Fervor gains Preferred enemy and rending. However, BT character and neophytes are not affected by this rule.

The character joins a crusader squad with 5 initiates and 5 neophytes. The initiates gain preferred enemy and rending. The neophytes get nothing.

Now, because preferred enemy states "any unit that contains a model with the special rules re-rolls..." the neophytes and the IC WILL benefit from preferred enemy until there are no initiates left in the squad. However, they will NOT benefit from rending as rending states "a model with this special rule..."

When the landspeeders gain stealth from the icon, the unit now "contains a model" with the stealth special rule (all of the RW landspeeders). Similarly, the unit "contains a model" with scout and shrouded (dark shroud), so the entire unit benefits from both until the Dark Shroud is destroyed.

I think you are misunderstanding that rules are never shared, conferred to the rest of the unit, etc. anymore like they were in 5th edition and prior. Now instead a model either has it or not and each individual rule is described as "a model with this special rule", "a unit that contains a model with this special rule" or "a unit entirely composed of models with this special rule" or some other slight variation on that general theme. Sgt. Telion does not grant or confer stealth to his squad of scouts. Rather, he has stealth and stealth says "a unit that contains a model with this special rule..." Therefore, even though the other scouts DO NOT HAVE stealth themselves, they still get +1 to their cover saves because they are part of a unit that contains a model with stealth.

[twopounder]

You are vindicated then!

Twopounder> These rules do not exist, but imagine they did...

A Black Templars special character has a special rule called Fanatic Fervor. This rule states that a unit the character joins gains the Rending and Hatred rules, excepting any Novices in the unit who do not gain either. Seems pretty clear that the Novices get squat, right? Under your interpretation, the Novices will be getting those rules after all, but not from the special character himself, but from the regular Black Templars Space Marines in the squad who now have this rule to share (without restrictions even) because it was shared to them.

Does this describe how you believe the core rules to work with regard to special rules and the sharing of them? Not being sarcastic, not being snide, just an honestly curious question as to whether this describes how you think things work.

No, it doesn't work like that. You're changing the situation to fit your view point. The DS is not entering a unit with models that are excluded from the rule, it is the model that is excluded form the rule. The DS cannot give itself stealth. But as per RAW:

"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule..."

If one speeder has stealth the UNIT has stealth. The DS does not say it can never have stealth, only that it can't give it to itself. But in this case, it's not giving stealth to itself, but the entire unit. A better example would be to say if a templar chaplain gives a unit he joins counter attack, but does have counter attack himself. This means he has to join a unit to get counter attack, and he's getting it from being in the unit. The rule book fully supports this.

@twopunder: You need to read the rules again dude. Both the Shrouded and Stealth special rules state "Cover save bonuses from the Shrouded and Stealth special rules are cumulative (to a maximum of a 2+ cover save)."

Note that it says to a maximum of a 2+ cover save not to a maximum of +2 to it's cover save.

You're right. I blame my dislexia

[marti350]

A quick diversion from the darkshroud debate, is there no scout formation dataslate? Even with as simple as it is I wouldve assumed it would get more than just a small box on the lion's blade page, yet glancing through the codex I didn't see it

[Elios Harg]

No, it's a dependent formation like the Inner Circle. I was hoping for a nice scout formation as well like space marines got.

[marti350]

That's pretty sucky, it doesn't eve say 0-1 per demi company like the Inner Circle Formation so I thought it was another oversight in a codex of various oversights