General Discussion

[simison]

That will lower the number of Traitor-Loyalist Orders, although, foreseeing that, Alexandros would hide the identity of the marines he trusts to stay true and have them be stealthily added to the loyalist legions where he can. The Halcyon Wardens, with the Parisada keeping careful watch, may play host to most of these marines where they will split off come the Orders Treaty.

 

Out of curiosity, and this is kinda an unfair question since we don't have a proper list, but which legions/orders will be deemed aggressive enough? 

[Sigismund229]

The legions would be:

 

-Crimson Lions

-Void Eagles

-Fire Keepers

-Dune Serpents(although this would likely be offset by how many of them turned traitor)

-Iron Bears, although Redd said they wouldn't have many successors

[Kelborn]

So loyal traitors continue to exist as blackshield until Hec disappears and they are accepted within the imperial ranks?

 

Another point that came into my mind. Bit off topic.

 

Do we have auxiliary regiments specialized in water warfare as a supporting force for the Scions and Drowned?

Thinking about to give Toho some Ashigaru regiments which are fighting alongside their Samurai masters and the 8th brotherhood of the Scions. Most likely they are specialized in waster / void warfare with modified equipment like an amphibious Chimera or tanks usable for underwater actions to some degree.

 

Thoughts?

 

*edit*

Predators got one loyal blackshield force which could later have its own successor orders.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Kelborn

[Sigismund229]

I think sim was suggesting that traitor loyalists get absorbed into the Halycon Wardens towards the end of the Insurrection when Alex is still Warmaster and it's through them that they found successor orders. By the time Hec dissapears I imagine the Imperium would be too far gone in regards of its hatred of the traitor legions to countenance them rejoining the Imperium, let alone siring successors

[bluntblade]

I think sim was suggesting that traitor loyalists get absorbed into the Halycon Wardens towards the end of the Insurrection when Alex is still Warmaster and it's through them that they found successor orders. By the time Hec dissapears I imagine the Imperium would be too far gone in regards of its hatred of the traitor legions to countenance them rejoining the Imperium, let alone siring successors

Or that Alex does something similar to what Guilliman did with the loyal Iron Warriors - declared them to be Ultra successors

[Sigismund229]

 

I think sim was suggesting that traitor loyalists get absorbed into the Halycon Wardens towards the end of the Insurrection when Alex is still Warmaster and it's through them that they found successor orders. By the time Hec dissapears I imagine the Imperium would be too far gone in regards of its hatred of the traitor legions to countenance them rejoining the Imperium, let alone siring successors

Or that Alex does something similar to what Guilliman did with the loyal Iron Warriors - declared them to be Ultra successors

 

What I meant

[Kelborn]

Congrats Sim. You're Legion will temporary get the Storm Blades. ;)

 

Any assumptions regarding my question?

[Chief Captain Redd]

Regarding the number of Iron Bears successors, the initial number of Orders will be low (7) as very few will be willing to break from the Legion; this will change later on I imagine especially once the foundings are using new Astartes and R.Damon Redd is in stasis not leading the Legion anymore.

 

I imagine there would be a want to use Iron Bear Geneseed as it's the most stable, if albeit slow; and has had very few traitors associated with it as well. So after M32 all bets are off in terms of successors.

[Sigismund229]

Blimey! 7 successors in the 2nd founding? The Lions will only have 4(atm) and I thought that was average(ish).

[MikhalLeNoir]

Sorry, but the most stable is the scions and the wardens of light. No mutations you werebear^^

[Sigismund229]

Sorry, but the most stable is the scions and the wardens of light. No mutations you werebear^^

Actually if I remember right the loyalist legions went like so for stability

 

1. Halycon Wardens and Scions tied for first place.

2. Wardens of Light(slightly less stable due to the pariah gene)

3. Iron Bears

4. Crimson Lions

5. Fire Keepers

6. Dune Serpents

7. Void Eagles

[Chief Captain Redd]

Well really six as seven includes the Bears; but they have a good bit of time to rebuild. So by the time the second founding happens I figured they'd still be well over 100k Astartes, so six at 10,000 and the Iron Bears still at 50k+

 

Edit: And I meant stability in terms of implant success rate, and don't the Wardens have some issues even after Alexanderos' return.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Chief Captain Redd

[Sigismund229]

Well really six as seven includes the Bears; but they have a good bit of time to rebuild. So by the time the second founding happens I figured they'd still be well over 100k Astartes, so six at 10,000 and the Iron Bears still at 50k+

Even so, 6 is on the higher end in terms of number of successors, unless all the other legions rejig to be having 12 or so successors or more, which would imo be a tad ridiculous.

 

Why not do a Space Wolf and have the Iron Bears just have 1 successor(in the 2nd founding) who has an equal number of marines, ships&tanks that the Bears do?(and then the numbers gradually dwindle to more standard Order size as time goes on)

Edited January 2, 2017 by Sigismund229

[Chief Captain Redd]

True enough; I sometimes forget The Bears are also one of the larger Legions, with only the Wardens and Scions being larger amongst the Loyalists. So I guess I meant more in terms of they could be potentially in that Ultra-esque 15+ second founding successors catagory; but instead don't.

 

The reason I was thinking for the way they split is R.Damon Redd is pretty calm and rationale when it comes to politics, which is all the Treaty really is, yet keeping a Demi-legion type strength to the Bears means he's not completely submissive; he still has Daer'dd to honor, and even though he realizes for the good of Huron and the Three Fires he can't just start a war with the Suzerainty and go against the Imperium, so it's his way of still being stubborn.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Chief Captain Redd

[~Drakzilla~]

Looking at the canonverse numbers for the second founding, it appears they vary wildly, but 6 seems to be the average number for KNOWN successors. (And then there's the Ultras, who supposedly sired 23 chapters.) Keep in mind that many second founding chapters are unknown and unrecorded, so the average should be higher.

 

Now obviously, we are going to have a lot less successors, seeing as our Orders are 10,000 strong. I think one thing we should be wary of is listing too many succesors that we account for all of them. One of the major appeals of 40k is the ambiguity that surrounds much of the facts and figures, and allows players to invent their own fill-in-the blank chapters, warbands, or heck, even lost legions ;)

 

So I guess what I'm saying is going into detail and accounting for all the successors is all well and good, but leave some wiggle room.

[simison]

Do we have auxiliary regiments specialized in water warfare as a supporting force for the Scions and Drowned?

Thinking about to give Toho some Ashigaru regiments which are fighting alongside their Samurai masters and the 8th brotherhood of the Scions. Most likely they are specialized in waster / void warfare with modified equipment like an amphibious Chimera or tanks usable for underwater actions to some degree.

 

Thoughts?

 

Nothing has been listed so far, and I like the idea. So, knock yourself out.

 

 

Sorry, but the most stable is the scions and the wardens of light. No mutations you werebear^^

Actually if I remember right the loyalist legions went like so for stability

 

1. Halycon Wardens and Scions tied for first place.

2. Wardens of Light(slightly less stable due to the pariah gene)

3. Iron Bears

4. Crimson Lions

5. Fire Keepers

6. Dune Serpents

7. Void Eagles

 

 

Close but the Scions are more stable than the Halcyon Wardens, due to the mental health flaw the Wardens deal with. It has been estimated that, while the Wardens will have the most successors at the Second Founding, the Scions will eventually produce more Orders across the ages. 

[Sigismund229]

True enough; I sometimes forget The Bears are also one of the larger Legions, with only the Wardens and Scions being larger amongst the Loyalists. So I guess I meant more in terms of they could be potentially in that Ultra-esque 15+ second founding successors catagory; but instead don't

Actually my friend, the Lions are bigger than the Iron Bears at the beginning of the Insurrection ;)

 

@sim: So the 2 Wardens and 2 pacifist legions are tied for 2nd place?...typical

 

Also, I have an idea for a 3rd founding Lions Order. What do people think of the Red Butchers as a name?

Edited January 2, 2017 by Sigismund229

[Chief Captain Redd]

@Sigismund Where did the Lions get bumped up to after the increase? The Bears sit around 205,000+ on the DoR.

[Skalpynock]

The Second Founding sees the Void Eagles sire three official successor orders: the Ash Walkers, the Sons of Nothingness, and the Burning Angels. Not sure on why they are so low on the genetic stability table, their Lyman ear is different from those of regular geneseed but they don't suffer major flaws, unlike the Halcyon Wardens insanity, or the Serpents blindness. The losses of the Insurrection and Scouring means they have few successors in the Second founding, but churn many during the third through… let's say seventh foundings.

 

As for the Second Founding itself, here's some (possibly incoherent, haven't slept in one or two day) thoughts I've had on it. In cannonverse, Guilliman broke down the legions in accordance to his own Codex, and it was a decision he took so that power is not concentrated in the hands of a single warmaster. For Kozja, it's really not the same. First of all, he's not an Imperial himself. It's part of his conditions for the non-agression treaty between Suzerainty and Imperium. It's still out of fear, as given time to rebuild, the loyalist legions could just go and crush the Suzerainty. In this situation, Kozja is simply a coward whose enemy is at its weakest. He divides his brothers' legions so that they don't become a potential threat to him. And since all the other diplomatic loyalists are dead or lost, he finds no one with the ability to argue against it efficiently. "Warmaster" Hektarion is too sanguine to discuss the matter from a purely organisatio-political point, Yucahu isn't against the idea, Azus and Niklaas don't weight enough in the post-insurrection War Council (don't remember where we wrote that, need to retrieve that info). Guilliman wrote the Codex Astartes for all loyalists, including himself, and swore by it. Darzalas wrote the Treatise Pertaining to the Organisation of the Legiones Astartes in the Post- Great Crusade Imperium for the Imperial legions as a political move, but never included the Suzerainty in it. All that to say that, unless Sangi and Drak disagree, I think the Warbringers, Warriors of Peace, and Steel Legion never divide. Took a while to try and convey that point.

[~Drakzilla~]

Red Butchers? Is it intentionally a reference to the World Eaters special unit?

 

@Skalpy: Oh wow, was not aware that the Suzerain legions never split. I'm not opposed to it, although there were ideas tossed around (before I took the reigns) for successors.

Edited January 2, 2017 by drakzilla

[bluntblade]

What bodies of loyalists from traitor Legions would even be Chapter size at the end of the Insurrection? The only ones I can think of are the surviving Shepherds led by Vyrn and the Shadow Hand band of ex-Warbringers. The remainder of the ones we'd - including Takar's Eagle Warriors - follow Khârn to Terra and the survivors take the vow of midnight (join the Nightguard) or die in the Cataclysm of Madrigal. Edited January 2, 2017 by bluntblade

[Sigismund229]

Red Butchers? Is it intentionally a reference to the World Eaters special unit?

Yes. I've not figured out anything past my basic idea for them but the idea is that something went wrong with their gene-seed and they're horrifically bloodthirsty even to the Lions and the other Lions successors. Hec is so horrified by them that he disowns them, meaning that while they are officialy successors of the Lions, no other Lions successor recognises them as such and if they serve in the same warzone a mortal duel is needed satisfy honour.

 

@Redd: When did the Bears get bumped up to 205k? Last I checked they were 160k?

The Lions are 180k-200k, people aren't really sure due to them being relatively widely spread

 

@Skalpy: The VE are so low because:

1. Somebody had to be and it wasn't going to be my boys :P

2. They have the lowest numbers of any loyal legion on the DoR so I assumed their gene-seed was at least partly to blame for thqt

Edited January 2, 2017 by Sigismund229

[Skalpynock]

The only things to blame are the absence of planetary recruitment/training facilities, and clerks giving a low estimation, with 90 000 being only the most often given number, but several convincing records put them around 120 000, with ridiculous claims going as far as 160 000. The highly destructive methods of warfare, and the tremendous losses suffered by the destruction of even a single ship, are also factors. You lose a ship, and 500 Astartes die in a single hour.

[Chief Captain Redd]

@Sigi Bears got the 20% bump (160k to 195k) when we lengthened the Great Crusade, the bump from 195k to 205k was made to give more drama and higher causalities to the Day of Revelation.

[Slips]

Liking the successor talk will think about it more later. For now, pray for my soul and sanity as I'm about to board on my flight from the philippines to LAX which will take ~12 hours before having a 4 hour layover there then a 5-6 hour flight back to montreal and home.

 

#rip