General Discussion

[simison]

Liking the successor talk will think about it more later. For now, pray for my soul and sanity as I'm about to board on my flight from the philippines to LAX which will take ~12 hours before having a 4 hour layover there then a 5-6 hour flight back to montreal and home.

 

#rip

 

Praying.

 

What bodies of loyalists from traitor Legions would even be Chapter size at the end of the Insurrection? The only ones I can think of are the surviving Shepherds led by Vyrn and the Shadow Hand band of ex-Warbringers. The remainder of the ones we'd - including Takar's Eagle Warriors - follow Khârn to Terra and the survivors take the vow of midnight (join the Nightguard) or die in the Cataclysm of Madrigal.

 

A surviving Terran Godslayer Brotherhood would be one.

 

There might be enough Lightning Bearers to scrape up a company.

 

The Shepherds you mentioned, which also represents any Loyalist Berserkers.

 

The Grave Stalkers wouldn't be one of the exceptions as the legion barely survives the Insurrection. At most, you might have a couple of Grave Stalkers represented among the Knights Errant and other specialty forces but that's it. 

 

Given the antagonism between Morro and the Drowned, I imagine defections could equal an Order by the end of the war, so long as loyalties could be verified.

 

So, just three or four Orders, really. And, given Hectarion's distrust, they'd be trying to keep a low profile. The imagined Lightning Bearers would constantly wear contact lenses or leave their helmets on and explain it away as an oath against the Traitors for one quick idea. 

 

Skal, why wouldn't Kozja divide his legions? By not doing so, doesn't he risk creating suspicious and escalating problems between the Suzerainty and the Imperium? I thought that Kozja pushes for the division because, though it weakens both military forces, it does less harm to the Suzerainty who have to defend a smaller area, compared to the Imperium.

[Kelborn]

After reading all that successor stuff, I'm glad that I only got one from my Predators. ^^

Traitor warbands are a bit easier to explain.

 

But I got a question:

When nearly each Order consists of ca. 10K Astartes, wouldn't they require several recruiting worlds?

Some canon chapters are struggling with keeping up their numbers with only one world to recruit from, most notably the Salamanders. In order to keep their numbers stable, each Order would need several worlds as a source of recruits instead of just one.

Furthermore, every Order "ruling" over a handfull of planets bears the seed of corruption in itself. I'm thinking of Badab as an example.

 

IMHO I believe that 10k strong Orders are maybe a bit too much.

But I do believe as well that this might have been discussed prior to my induction, so I'm eager to read the reasons behind it. :)

 

@Simison: thanks! I'll do my very best. Already got a couple of ideas for them. But first of all, I need to reread the Auxiliary stuff in HH 5 again. Overall theme: imperial guard (maybe having their own version of Tempestus Scions), Ashigaru and the Japanese faction of Red Alert 3 :)

 

*edit*

Don't forget the Storm Blades, consisting of the formerly Phantom Blades and elements of other tribes of the Predators. Or don't they count in this specific list as they are trying to hide their heritage by turning into a blackshield force?

Edited January 2, 2017 by Kelborn

[simison]

I didn't mention the Storm Blades because you had already mentioned them, and the Predators are in a quasi-loyalist and traitor state thanks to their schism at the end of the Insurrection.

 

Yes, more worlds would be necessary. Instead of a single planet, the emphasis would move to a system or a sector, or whatever is the step above a system. 

 

EDIT: I'm not sure if it'd affect the corruption rate since the 10k marines are acting lawfully together whereas the Badab War started when a temporary collection of chapters refused to split. 

Edited January 2, 2017 by simison

[MikhalLeNoir]

Did we have the 20 % ? Missed it cuz we stayed at 157 k since the beginning of the project.

 

The wardens gene seed is stable and has a very high sucessrate. The pariah gene is no problem as the wardens on their last implementation can chose if they want the inactive gene from terran sources or the active from newer state.

 

As the wardens don't wear down over the years. How many will die on terra? I have listed somewhere a few followup orders althpugh they could be establisjed over different foundings.

 

For sure: Grey Wardens, Apostles of Light, Sun Spears amd Light Crusaders. Which will leave plenty of room for additional orders. By the way they split way before the treaty so the numbers are not necessarily 10k. Sometimes more, sometimes fewer. But all togheter form the Legion "the Wardens of Light".

Edited January 2, 2017 by MikhalLeNoir

[Talonair]

The Abyssii Mechanicum are pretty much complete, rules-wise. I need to update the special character Archmagos Dominus and perhaps fiddle with Mortera's stats, but I have my Primarch-equivalent, four special characters, four unique units, a relic, and a different FOC

[Sigismund229]

@Mikhal: The Halycon Wardens bumped up their numbers due to being the Warmasters legion and the Lions did to be able to have the everloving :cuss kicked out of them during the Insurrection and still be a viable force at the end. Apparently the Bears did to be able to lose more on the DoR.

 

I don't think the WoL should bump up their pre Insurrection numbers as they'll have plenty of time during the Insurrection to build up their numbers

[Doctor Perils]

I'd be in favour of the orders of the adeptus astartes (aren't cohorts around the 500 marine mark?) I would however be in favour of bumping down the numbers from 10,000 to 2000 or 5000 - considering how destructive the chapters are supposed to be, 10,000 is a bit much.

 

For the suzerainty, perhaps there could be orders that are created later on from the fall of the primarchs but as splits/schisms (like the sons of medusa)?

[Sigismund229]

I say keep it at c.10,000 particularly given it will be rare for a Cohort to be at full strength because of battle losses and then maybe reduce the size of the Cohorts later due to some schism or other or Cohorts struggling(due to mutated gene-seed perhaps) to keep their nunbers anywhere near 10,000.

[MikhalLeNoir]

But bumling up theur numbers in order ot habe mire killed is a kinda lame ezcuse. It somehow takes away the drama out of the drama. And the wardens lose about 30k on the day of revelation. They rebuilt and have 160k as the end draws near. I understand it for the halycons and for the lions(dominion is big), but honestly, I am against it for the bears. Yeah. They lose their primarch, but they get their sigismund. Now they built up about 200k on astsrtes. If the reason is because the crusade lasts longer, then EVERY legion should get bumped up. But saying you increase the numbers to have more casualties? Still no.

 

Followung this logic, the wol should have 250 and lose 100k on the day of rev to have more drama.... And use the 25 years to rebuilt...

[Kelborn]

I'd be in favour of the orders of the adeptus astartes (aren't cohorts around the 500 marine mark?) I would however be in favour of bumping down the numbers from 10,000 to 2000 or 5000 - considering how destructive the chapters are supposed to be, 10,000 is a bit much.

 

For the suzerainty, perhaps there could be orders that are created later on from the fall of the primarchs but as splits/schisms (like the sons of medusa)?

Agreed for the same reasons Thorn had mentioned.

Yes, large epic battles are awesome but for me, the most epic battles were those including small sized forces. 2 or 5k are still a lot. Imho 10k denies the drama.

Imagine Armaggedon with one Order against Gazghul.

Imagine Damocles with one or two Ordrrs against the Tau.

 

Kind of bland. "Yeah, we lost 4k brothers but we're still up to 6k with 1k new neophytes in production."

 

Still, my very own opinion and I'll go with whatever the majority decided. But I'm with Thorn regarding this point.

[simison]

When we decided on the first timeline where the Great Crusade lasted an additional 40 years, I offered every legion an additional 20% to their numbers to represent the new time extension. Now, I know for a fact that not everyone accepted it. The Godslayers passed on it given their attrition-style warfare. I think the Berserkers also said no. The Halcyon Wardens did take it.

 

Of course, now we've shortened that time to 30 years instead of 20 years, there's some question how big that bonus should be. 

 

Now, I picked 10,000 marines for an Order size due to these two articles: 

http://thegoodthebadtheinsulting.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/the-legiones-astartes-shattered-hammer.html

http://thegoodthebadtheinsulting.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-adeptus-astartes-shield-reforged.html

 

The Order was supposed to represent a compromise between the chapter's more defensive benefits and the legion's offensive benefits since Icarion's empire was still in the process of being cleansed from the galaxy when Kozja pushes for the Treaty. With 10,000 mariens, it would have been easy enough to move from defense to offense and visa versa while having enough numbers to handle small threats to the much larger ones that would overwhelm a standard chapter.

 

That said, I am not opposed to reducing that number to 5,000 marines, though I think 2,000 marines is too small. 

[Nomus Sardauk]

Perhaps an alternative solution to the Order problem could be to alter their nature, here's what I'm thinking;

Rather than an Order being essentially a 5,000 strong Chapter, perhaps an Order could be a grouping of five Chapters founded together (possibly of the same gene-seed) and bound by oaths to defend adjacent/neighbouring regions of space, regularly training and working together to reinforce the bonds of brotherhood and enable them to fight together as effectively as possible. When a threat severe enough comes along the five chapters automatically unite under a pre-determined joint command structure with the overall commander decided via the vote of all five respective Chapter Masters and set to work countering said threat with their combined might and improved tactical flexibility.

Think of them like permenant Astartes battlegroups whose respective parts operate independently until the entire group is needed, like how the Void Eagles operate as seperate great fleets but are one legion, the Orders simply have better brotherly cohesion and supportive proximity.

[Sigismund229]

I'd rather stick with Orders being up sized chapters. 

[~Drakzilla~]

Sangi, the grouping idea makes sense, but I think it would get very complicated very fast. If 40k factions were confusing enough already, imagine throwing into the mix, "Oh, and these 5 chapters (with their own names and cultures) are also an Order known as the (insert name here) with its own traditions and they guard this area of space." I imagine it will be impossible to keep track of everything and avoiding overlap when it is already hard enough to keep track of all the canon chapters on their own.

 

I am in favor of 5000 strong Orders. 10,000 seemed like a tiny bit much. If you think about it, that's 10x the size of a chapter, but that also means there would be 10% the number of space marine chapters total. If the estimate is that there are approximately 1000 chapters, that leaves only 100 Orders for us, which severely limits our setting in my opinion. Halving that just means 200, which isn't much more, but it is an improvement.

[simison]

San, that idea makes a lot of sense, but, ironically, my criticism isn't what has been laid out by Drak. My criticism is that I think it limits potential structures. What you're essentially describing is the current set-up of the canon Dark Angels, minus the shame and potentially using different gene-seed variants. I'd prefer that we don't make it part of the Treaty but some Orders are structured that way. In fact, I think that organization would fit the Warriors of Peace beautifully. 

[MikhalLeNoir]

It is the structure the wardens of light have. As mentioned before: they built the legion "the wardens of light" -> the unforgiven^^

 

 

Concerning the suzys: i think skalpynoks idea would balance the differemce in numbers out. The big legions could work better togheter while the imperium jas to gatger different orders with different opinions before they can stsrt a campaign against the suzerainity

Edited January 2, 2017 by MikhalLeNoir

[bluntblade]

There could be a few groups of Orders like the Sentinel Chapters in canon, who have worked together on many occasions and have a close informal alliance

[Sigismund229]

Ideas I have for Crimson Lions successors. I think that their successors would, in terms of when they are founded, cluster around the years when Hec's warmaster and times when the Imperium is going on the offensive again. Also, if their gene-seed deteriorates then they'd probably fade out lf use in later foundings.

 

2nd founding

-Bloodied Hunters

-Iron Lions

-Knights of Mycenae

-Executioners(yes I know that's the name of a canon chapter so I'm open to other suggestions)

-Laceradones Astra(means roughly Astral Claws in latin)

 

N/A founding

-Red Butchers

-Axe Bearers

-Ashen Pride

-Astral Lions

-Mycenae's Blades

[Kelborn]

I hate my life...I wrote an entire post about what I'd in mind but now, it's all gone. Even the Auto Saved Content....

 

Whatever.

 

I'll just ask and see what will happen.

 

Would it be ok if I give House Toho (alongside their Ashigaru regiments, the allied Forgeworld of Tanya'ba AND the remaining brothers of the 8th brotherhood of the Scions Hospitalier) the right to rule the planets close to thrir homeworld, forming a empire of its own?

It's still a loyal part of the Imperium which is tasked to safeguard the southern half of the Domain of Storms and bolster up the defence of Ultima.

 

Or would that be too much power for a Household? Or too much of a snowflake?

 

Depending on Slips' granting me his blessing to turn the 8th into a 2nd Founding Order and the overall reaction of the rest, I'll upload more stuff. (Got color schemes finished, way of waging war, overall theme, etc,)

 

I'm intending to create a separate thread for this one as it would be about more than one faction (Auxilaries, Astartes, Knights & Titans as allies).

Edited January 3, 2017 by Kelborn

[foamy248]

I DID A WRITING: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329315-brotherhood-of-the-lost-the-lost-angels/?p=4609839

Edited January 2, 2017 by foamy248

[simison]

Kel, when it comes to this issue I understand I'm more forgiving than most, so I'd wait to hear from a few other voices. As for my opinion proper, I would shy away from calling it an empire. That said, so long as this 'client kingdom' obeys Imperial laws and pays the Imperial tithe, I see no issue in how they organize the local political structure. 

[Chief Captain Redd]

I've got to disagree here on the numbers issue, GW are horrible with numbers and warfare, I'm big fan of Hero one in a million Astartes, but considering any given worldwide battlefront would have probably around 50,000,000+ Guardsmen. I like the 10,000 Order strength, that being said not all orders will have that number, or be able to maintain all the wargear needed to deploy all their Astartes. I think that creates an interesting path of story telling in and of itself.

[Kelborn]

Kel, when it comes to this issue I understand I'm more forgiving than most, so I'd wait to hear from a few other voices. As for my opinion proper, I would shy away from calling it an empire. That said, so long as this 'client kingdom' obeys Imperial laws and pays the Imperial tithe, I see no issue in how they organize the local political structure.

Understood. :)

Empire is not the right term. Was a bit in a haze as I wanted to go to bed. It's rather a realm / kingdom thing like you've said. Something reminiscent of the old medieval Japan.

 

Ok, just wanted to ask before I enter snowflake territory. Will wait for some other replies and Slips' OK.

[Doctor Perils]

I've got to disagree here on the numbers issue, GW are horrible with numbers and warfare, I'm big fan of Hero one in a million Astartes, but considering any given worldwide battlefront would have probably around 50,000,000+ Guardsmen. I like the 10,000 Order strength, that being said not all orders will have that number, or be able to maintain all the wargear needed to deploy all their Astartes. I think that creates an interesting path of story telling in and of itself.

I know that gw are a bit rubbish with numbers, but in order to stay more or less close to the base material, a smaller scale should be kept in mind.

Also, the whole structure of an order must be different from a chapter if the numbers are going to be that large (in relative terms to the source material)

[simison]

How come? Wouldn't it be possible to enlarge the size of companies and simply add more squads to compensate?