General Discussion

[Sigismund229]

We could keep squads at 20 marines and have it go like this:

Squad(20)=>Company(100)=>Grand Company(500)=>Order(5000)

 

Or this:

Squad(20)=>Company(200)=>Grand Company(1000)=>Order(5000)

[simison]

Or Battalions. But yeah, either option works, and, so long as the legions are divided somehow, we can see both options and more throughout the legions.

[~Drakzilla~]

I say the squads should be reduced to 10, there needs to be a marked difference between the Space Marine legions of 30k and the Orders of 40k. They may be 5 times the size of a Chapter, but their forces would probably be more spread out, and thus individual strike forces would still be used in a similar way to those of the canon chapters.

 

In other news, ALL ABOARD THE HERESY TRAIN:

 

http://i.imgur.com/pggMNvD.jpg

[Kelborn]

As an example:

 

Predators

 

Numbers: 130.000 in total (took the average of all Legion sizes), led by Andezo

divided in 13 tribes, each 10.000 Legionnaires, led by an Izinduna

divided in 20 regiments, each 500 Legionnaires, depending on its purpose: either 10 x 20 or 20 x 10 squads, led by an Induna

 

Averaging the regiments are organized in small strike forces, each lead by a Lieutenant (currently lacking an appropriate name, pack leader? Hunt master?), consisting of 6 squads (can either be 4 Tacitcal +  2 Support or 4 Seeker + 2 Assault, etc.)

 

I'm not a fan of these battalions, therefore I'm trying to keep it rather simple like the Night Lords organization. Should be ok, or not? 

 

Think that every Legion can be organized how they want to be, whether in 10 man or 20 man squads.

[Doctor Perils]

We could keep squads at 20 marines and have it go like this:

Squad(20)=>Company(100)=>Grand Company(500)=>Order(5000)

 

Or this:

Squad(20)=>Company(200)=>Grand Company(1000)=>Order(5000)

Yep, i think a company should remain around the 100-200 mark in order for battlefield communications to remain effective

[MikhalLeNoir]

To make it easy I call my companies: Gold 1- gold X^^

[Doctor Perils]

Okay, I've just seen the discussion going on over in the Iron Bears thread. First of all, I'll extend my best wishes to Chief Captain Redd: I hope you recover soon.

 

I'm no kind of moderator, so I'll refrain from speaking about the way things were said, on one side or the other. However, I can make observations, and I think one of the main reasons for that discussion was miscomprehension, especially about the different legions (or factions generally) in play. With such a mass of text coming out of the project, it's normal for someone to get lost in the whole thing.

 

I know that I've barely been able to keep up with the overall project, and I've only been able to do so by leaving a lot of the texts out. Unfortunately, a lot of information about the legions seems to be only in those texts: my grip on the overall thing is always slipping on the other hand, so I'm sure that within the next few months, I'll be completely lost (which would be fitting for the "Brotherhood of the Lost" :P ). I suspect that I'm not alone in this situation, and it may be that different members forget some elements about factions they don't deal with on a daily basis.

 

So what's the remedy to this? Well, imo,

• the first step is to make references in the first posts of each Legion (or faction) to each of the most important elements of the faction - that also means that there should be an out of universe description of what that Legion is, right at the beginning. In addition, a paragraph or two saying what they do in this universe would be very much welcome.
• Other secondary elements (the exact colour schemes of the five variations of Terminator armour; the exact names, ranks and armour of each Praetor of the Legion; rules; and so on and so forth) should be relegated to spoilers at the end of the post, so-as to not clutter the meat of the matter; it's nice info, but it just makes the posts that much more complicated to navigate for most people.
• Presentation-wise,
  • please add ONE colour scheme and ONE icon at the very beginning of your posts, especially for the Legions - Drakzilla has made great Icons for each of the Legions (apart for the Steel Legion for the moment?), and is currently in the process of creating the Colour Schemes with added artwork (btw, you're constistently knocking it out of the park with those :) ) - for the legions he hasn't got back to yet, there is always the Bolter and Chainsword interactive painter which is easy enough to use that you'll be able to get a picture up fast.
  • I would really recommend adding headers to these posts too - these allow the reader to go straight to the bits they are looking for
  • When giving lists, don't shy away from using bullet-points: the forum has the in-built functionality for a reason.They allow you to access the information more rapidly.
• When adding elements to your faction, update your first post accordingly, to avoid that nugget getting lost in the flood of information that occurs here regularly.
• Keep actual stories out of your first post - I think most of you have taken them out already if you had them at one time, if so, :tu: However, do link the stories pertaining to your faction in a spoiler here :)
• If you have the patience/energy, write an Index Astartes style article: this can and should be part of the first post, but it also shouldn't replace the out of universe explanations that are written in plain english

I know that all this is going to be a llooooott of work, but I think that the faction's author is really the only one that can do it, as others may have missed crucial bits of info - especially if the author may have forgotten to post a bit of info they have in their head.

 

The essence of all this really is: imagine you have to present the gist of your faction in the Brotherhood of the Lost, in 15 minutes or less. The first post is equivalent to the powerpoint you prepare to go with that presentation, with a list of additional reading  (in the form of links to pertinent stories), plus an eventual Index Astartes. From there, new readers will be able to get the factions whole concept much more rapidly, and old readers will be able to pinpoint the  information in a second. Ultimately, I think this sort of thing is inevitable for the project to advance without such glaring misconceptions.

 

I'll just give two examples which may help show why I think this is going to be necessary:

• I can't see the death of Daer'dd mentionned in the first three pages of the Iron Bears (and there are 29 of them so I'm not going hunting)
• The first mention of the name "Burden" for the Crimson Lions is on page 6 - the legion's "curse" is mentioned in the first post, though it is not described before the third page... after one of Turrus's units is described also as "the cursed"

[Kelborn]

May I introduce: Thorn the Presenter!

 

Thanks, brother. You're feedback is always welcome and I totally agree with you.

 

I haven't had the time to write such a summary but luckily BlindPrimarch asked me to give him an overview for him in order to write something including Andezo and Mirr'or.

If it's ok for him, I'll take the chance an write a general summary which can be used as a front page as well. Good timing here. :tu:

[simison]

*Reads through Thorn's post* 

 

*Adds posting idea to misc. cycle*

 

Got it.

[foamy248]

Good idea. It'd streamline everything and avoid the threads from turning into big, bloated messes. :)

[Sigismund229]

Question I'd like to ask while we're allowed to discuss successor orders:

Would there be any objections to the Crimson Lions and their successors eschewing the usual organization in favour of keeping their current legion organization in a downscaled form along with fluctuating clan numbers and all that?

[simison]

So long as the legion is broken down, Kozja would approve of it, unwilling to fight political battles he doesn't need to.

[Sigismund229]

I was more thinking of objections from other members as if the Lions and their successors keep the Clan structure that means tere willbe a much greater variation in their numbers than usual

[Doctor Perils]

What would you mean by fluctuating clan numbers? And what would you mean by downscaled legion-org?

 

In all honesty, I'd be rather see most of these orders "codex"-adherent on the whole, at least to the same extent as the Blood Angels and Dark Angels are. After all, in the canon-verse, there are only really the Space Wolves, the Salamanders and the Black Templars that diverge from the codex in a significant manner. The Wolves have a single successor (which may well have been codex-adherent), the Salamanders simply don't have the manpower to apply the codex, and the Black Templars... are badass.

Imo then, all of your successors should be codex adherent (on the whole), with a possible single exception with approbation of the group.

 

Though I must admit, I find this rather rich coming from you following the discussion with Redd :P

[Sigismund229]

What I mean by fluctuating numbers is that instead of Grand Companies/Clans/Battalions having a fixed size, they expand and contract based on a number of factors. So one might be 1,800 strong at a time when another is 600 strong. It also means that if, for some wierd reason, the Order has been gaining a lot more marines than it loses it might spill over and be slightly over strength. Not to the same degree as the Black Templars(IMPERATOR VULT! Best chapter ever in canon btw, probably also where my dislike for chapters following the Codex comes from) but have like 5,200 marines instead of 5000.

 

What I mean by downscaled legion organization is that they keep Clans&Brotherhoods whose numbers aren't fixed and change depending on how charismatic their leader is, how much fighting they've done recently etc. along with the apothacerion being split into 2 orders and the Librarius&Chaplaincy being merged into one organization, using getae instead of scouts etc. So like the Crimson Lions are organized as a legion now but on a smaller scale.

 

As to potential hypocrasy, well nobody's perfect :P that's also why I'm asking now, so that if the majority of people are against it I can change it before non standard organization bdecomes too concrete in my ideas for the Lions and co. post Insurrection

Edited January 5, 2017 by Sigismund229

[Doctor Perils]

What I mean by fluctuating numbers is that instead of Grand Companies/Clans/Battalions having a fixed size, they expand and contract based on a number of factors. So one might be 1,800 strong at a time when another is 600 strong. It also means that if, for some wierd reason, the Order has been gaining a lot more marines than it loses it might spill over and be slightly over strength. Not to the same degree as the Black Templars(IMPERATOR VULT! Best chapter ever in canon btw, probably also where my dislike for chapters following the Codex comes from) but have like 5,200 marines instead of 5000.

 

What I mean by downscaled legion organization is that they keep Clans&Brotherhoods whose numbers aren't fixed and change depending on how charismatic their leader is, how much fighting they've done recently etc. along with the apothacerion being split into 2 orders and the Librarius&Chaplaincy being merged into one organization. So like the Crimson Lions are organized as a legion now but on a smaller scale.

 

As to potential hypocrasy, well nobody's perfect

For the numbers, I think canon-verse always accepts a certain amount of lee-way: for a chapter of 1000 marines of the line, there may well be up to 100 extra marines that have support duties (apothecarion, recclusiam, forge, librarius, even officers and command squads) plus the scout company is potentially over 100 neophytes - I don't think there's a real problem for having Orders that would reach 5200 marines all told (so including support roles and neophytes). 5500 may be a bit much though.

 

For the merging/splitting of certain specialisations, I also don't see a problem with all successor Orders following the same pattern (eg Iron Hands and co. generally have Iron Fathers, the Blood Angels and co. have a special office for their Apothecaries...)

 

The non-fixed nature of the numbers and composition of the Clans does set some alarm bells ringing though - essentially a bit like the Black Templars and Wolves no? This is far from the norm for canon-verse chapters, where the codex limitations are set by the Chapter themselves: in this 'verse, the "codex" limitations are set by an outside party, on diplomatic and political terms, so imo such divergencies would be even more frowned upon.

That being said, I'd be inclined to agree to ONE of your successors getting a divergent treatment, but no more. This could be the Crimson Lions' order themselves, or a new successor like the Black Templar were.

Of course, all this is up for discussion, as always :)

[Kelborn]

Agreed.

One is ok, more would be too much.

This successor could be the black sheep of the Lions family, simply ignoring the codex and adhering the edicts of Hec.

 

Btw, do we have a pendant of the BTs? Do the Fire Keepers fill that role or will they have an even more zealous successor Order like the BTs?

 

Blazing Knights maybe? ;)

[MikhalLeNoir]

Crimson templars incoming!!!!

 

 

But as we meddle with future things, I have a thought on the more Dark Angels Split of the wardens. So the Wardens are no more ( or the whole legion are the wardens) so is it possible for the scouts to be trained in caerbannog togheter and from there they were semt as full astsrtes to their respective order? This would intensify the special connection to caerbannog which is still the most "sacred" place fkr all wardens sucessors. How this will function with unknown or mixed geneseeds....no idea^^

Edited January 5, 2017 by MikhalLeNoir

[Kelborn]

Wouldn't the successors have their own ways of training and their own respective culture?

 

Or would it be more like:

 

Lads! You are all Wardens of Loght. But as we are no Legion anymore, you two will become Golden Wardens. From now on, you'll be even more knightly and self sacrificing. You three, you'll become Grey Wardens. You'll become depressed and upset with the Imperium.

 

Bit over the top but you'll get what I mean. :)

[Nomus Sardauk]

But as we meddle with future things, I have a thought on the more Dark Angels Split of the wardens. So the Wardens are no more ( or the whole legion are the wardens) so is it possible for the scouts to be trained in caerbannog togheter and from there they were semt as full astsrtes to their respective order? This would intensify the special connection to caerbannog which is still the most "sacred" place fkr all wardens sucessors. How this will function with unknown or mixed geneseeds....no idea^^

Why not have Caerbannog as a shared recruiting/training ground for the Warden Successors, with the old Fortress-Monastery manned and guarded by an multi-chapter honour guard of marines hand-picked by the collective Chapter Masters? The neophytes can learn the basics of combat and receive their first augmentations there, then once chosen by a Chapter they are implanted with the respective gene-seed and taken to that Chapter's homeworld/fleet to be fully trained in their ways of war.

 

That way the Successors strengthen their bonds of brotherhood by their shared Caerbonnogii heritage and joint reverence/custodianship of the planet that was the wellspring of their Legion.

Edited January 5, 2017 by SanguiniusReborn

[MikhalLeNoir]

Exactly what sanguinius said.

[Sigismund229]

 

For the numbers, I think canon-verse always accepts a certain amount of lee-way: for a chapter of 1000 marines of the line, there may well be up to 100 extra marines that have support duties (apothecarion, recclusiam, forge, librarius, even officers and command squads) plus the scout company is potentially over 100 neophytes - I don't think there's a real problem for having Orders that would reach 5200 marines all told (so including support roles and neophytes). 5500 may be a bit much though.

 

For the merging/splitting of certain specialisations, I also don't see a problem with all successor Orders following the same pattern (eg Iron Hands and co. generally have Iron Fathers, the Blood Angels and co. have a special office for their Apothecaries...)

 

The non-fixed nature of the numbers and composition of the Clans does set some alarm bells ringing though - essentially a bit like the Black Templars and Wolves no? This is far from the norm for canon-verse chapters, where the codex limitations are set by the Chapter themselves: in this 'verse, the "codex" limitations are set by an outside party, on diplomatic and political terms, so imo such divergencies would be even more frowned upon.

That being said, I'd be inclined to agree to ONE of your successors getting a divergent treatment, but no more. This could be the Crimson Lions' order themselves, or a new successor like the Black Templar were.

Of course, all this is up for discussion, as always

 

 

As far as the numbers are concerned, as I said none would go into Black Templars territory in the millenia immediately after the Orders are established while in the later millenia the Lion's and their successor's gene-seed will have degenerated enough that, when taken together with combat losses they'll struggle to keep their numbers as high as 5000. 

 

I'm somewhat surprised that you think the Clans are more suspect than the getae, split apothacerion etc. I thought that seeing as the Orders were imposed by the Suzerainty, that would make it less frowned upon for someone to diverge from the standard Order organization. It's a treaty which weakened the Imperium and so I thought that, provided they still split down into Orders, most wouldn't really care how a legion's successor orders organized themselves. 

[Sigismund229]

Just went through 3/4 of this thread to find the story about Icarion and Alex negotiating....next time I have an idea that stupid remind me about this time

[MikhalLeNoir]

You went through...3/4 of this thread? That are about 180 pages or 4500 posts!!!!!

 

Travier: "This is madness"

Hec: Madness? THIS IS THE DOMINION!!!!!

[simison]

Ow! It was still in this thread!?