Alternate Legion - The Scions Hospitalier

[simison]

[Last unit.]

 

Phaeton-Pattern Storm Eagle

 

Comparison Base: Storm Eagle (210 pts)

 

Attributes

• +1 Side Armour: 5 points
  
• +2 Transport Capacity: 10 points
  
• -1 Access Point: (-5) points (?)
  

Total: 10 points

 

Wargear

• Two Wing-Mounted twin-linked lascannons: 40 points
  
• Extra Armour: 5 points
  
• Armoured Ceramite: 20 points
  
• Forward Turret-mounted Dual Volkite Culverin: ???
  
• Rear turret: ???
  

Total: 65(?) points

 

Special Rules

• Reinforced Structure: 30 points
  
• Rapid Insertion: 20 points
  
• Independent Turret Fire: 50 points
  

 

Total: 100 points

 

Total cost: 175 points

 

Recommend overall cost: 385 points

 

Notes: 

• Why is only the side armour bumped up?
  
• Great, now I need to figure out how much transport capacity should cost per model. Going with 5 points per model as a starting base.
  
• Then I realized that there was one fewer access point. Well, this unit got complicated quick.
  
• Where on Terra did the Reinforced Structure idea come from? Found it under the Stormbird entry. 
  
• Okay, there is no rules in my PDF copy of the Legiones Astartes: Army of Darkness that covers a dual volkite culverin. Would I be correct in assuming it's simply double shot? I can't price it, until I know what it is.
  
• I treated Independent Turret Fire as though it were a double dose of Machine Spirit. ...why does this unit have a Machine Spirit if it already has the ITF rule?
  
• Notes from the Thunderhawk: Chaff Launcher is 10 points, not 15. Ramjet Diffraction grid is 50 points, not 25. A Flare Shield is 50 points, but since the Phaeton's can only be activated in hover mode, the math for 25 works out. 
  
• I love the Depth Charge rule, but have no idea what you were comparing it to. The Stormbird and Thunderhawk use cluster of bombs instead of one big one. What does Massive mean in this context?
  
• Overall, this flier doesn't know if it wants to be a standard flyer or a Super-heavy flyer. It has rules criss-crossing between the Storm Eagle/Fire Raptor and the Thunderhawk/Stormbird rules. Since no legion has ever been allowed to have a unique super vehicle as a unique legion unit, the Phaeton needs to be cut down...severely. 
  

[Slips]

• Think of the side access points as opening in this fashion vs hatches that pop/slide open: https://www.google.ca/search?q=LAAT&biw=1920&bih=933&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir1dK6ia_RAhXH7oMKHQzpBdYQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=HJEseGw582eutM%3A Thats mainly why its more armored since if it fails, its a larger surface area that is compromised though that could be fluffstified with Reinforced Structure Rule instead of Av13.

 

• IDK about transport capacity. If there is no base equivalent then maybe ((slots)x5)/2 = costs, rounding up or down ie: 25 slots = ~60 points. If its above or below what a standard version would have ie +2 Slots over a regular Storm Eagle, +5 per slot (or -5 if space is reduced) is fine.

 

• For Access Points, it depends on the vehicle type (assault or not?) If Assault, 1 less access point = roughly -10-15 per. Otherwise, -5 unless it leaves the vehicle with a single access point at which point -20-35 since it makes it MUCH easier to "Instakill" an embarked unit be blocking the access points.

 

• I forget 100% where I got the idea from but its essentially an 8 Shot, Twin-Linked Volkite Culverin.

 

• See: Fire Raptor for Independent Turret Fire. Machine Spirit only lets a SINGLE weapon shoot at a different target. ITF essentially means the turrets can shoot at whatever but still means they're subject to vehicle pen results like Shaken/Stunned which would force Snap Firing; something that POTMS bypasses when used.

 

• Decided to make Chaff more expensive since its a 4++ vs Missiles on top of the Strength Reduction of the RDG or FS. Note; The Flare Shield used to be 25 points (though its 50 on the TH regardless) and was recently increased to 45 for most vehicles (see Spartan in new LA:AODL). The RDG + FS essentially make the Phaeton Av13/14/13 when all are active vs shooting with a 5++ base boosted to a 4++ vs Missiles. I'm all for making them more expensive upgrades since its essentially a tougher Caestus Assault Ram at this point and has higher potential AV than even a Thunderhawk.

 

• I made a note of Massive on the Depthcharge entry, iirc, that it cuts transport capacity in half when taken as an upgrade until it gets used since its transported in the Passenger bay - at least in my mind it is - due to its size making it ungainly and unsafe to use otherwise if mounted on the exterior of the hull.

For cutting it down:

1. Scrap the Ramjet and Flare Shield seems more than fair since only Super-Heavy or "Fighter Jet" type flyers have them. Doesnt really fit the bill at this stage.
2. Make the Turrets just Twin-Linked Culverins instead of 2 Twin-Linked Culverins.
3. Make Armoured Ceramite an upgrade and not a standard issue wargear item alongside extra armour.
4. Reduce side Armour down to 12.
5. Front Turret is essentially just a nose gun with perma "POTMS" activated. I'd personally just point up the rear turret.
6. Another thing to consider is that, unlike the Storm Eagle, the Phaeton doesn't have the hull-mounted Vengeance Launcher that LITERALLY everybody forgets it has.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Slipstreams

[simison]

[Take two.]

 

Phaeton-Pattern Storm Eagle

 

Comparison Base: Storm Eagle (210 pts)

 

Attributes

• +2 Transport Capacity: 10 points
  
• -1 Access Point: (-10) points 
  

Total: 0 points

 

Wargear

• Two Wing-Mounted twin-linked lascannons: 40 points
  
• Extra Armour: 5 points
  
• Forward Twin-linked Volkite Culverin: 15 points
  
• Rear T-L VC vs. Vengeance Launcher: (-5) points 
  

Total: 65 points

 

Special Rules

• Reinforced Structure: 30 points
  
• Rapid Insertion: 20 points
  

 

Total: 50 points

 

Total cost: 115 points

 

Recommend overall cost: 325 points

 

Notes: 

• I essentially pulled out Independent Turret Fire since it already has POTM. 
  
• Went to the Heavy Support Squad entry to compare a multi-melta price tag to a volkite culverin. They're equal, so I just gave the twin-linked MM price. 
  
• Bah, I did forget the Vengeance launcher. I went with comparing it to the rear volkite cannon. 
  
• I'm uneasy about giving it the Reinforced Structure, but isn't this the flyer that doubles as a submarine? 
  
• Neither Storm Eagle or Fire Raptor have a Chaff Launcher. I recommend deleting that as an option.
  
• Likewise, did you want a Searchlight to be an option?
  
• Regarding the Depth Charge, isn't a Large Blast 5 inches? I'm still not sure how to price it. 60 points buys a TH cluster bomb set, which can be used 3 times, despite the One Use Only rule. In raw stats, it has 3 better AP (15 points), +4 Strength (20 points), but it's only a large blast compared to Apocalyptic (-15?) and can be used only once (-10 points). Finally, the cluster bombs have no transport penalty (-15?). Overall, I'd price the Depth Charge at 60 points at most. Maybe as little as 50 points.  
  

[Slips]

• Fair enough on the turret fire. Its not like it has more than 4 weapons to shoot; the amount flyers can shoot before incurring penalties.

Fair.

Yep. Even my buddy who owns and uses 3 storm eagles and has the missiles modeled on forgets it has them :p

Yeah, the main idea was that it can be used: Under water, In atmosphere, in vacuum but not warp travel (to small to have a drive anyways). So thats the main reason for Reinforced Structure.

Yeah, I agree on removing it.

Eh. 1pt for a Searchlight. Might as well since EVERYTHING has it.

I went with 75pts to be safe. The 7" Blast is actually an Apocalyptic Blast (the middle ring on the template, it goes 5/7/10).

[simison]

• Adding the Searchlight option.

Actually, it says in the PDF that the 7 inch blast is called Massive, not Apocalyptic. Is that what you mean?

Regardless of name, since it is supposed to be 7 inches, I'd bump up the cost to either 55 or 65 points. I don't think it should be 15 points more expensive than the cluser bombs.

Since we're just talking about the options, does that mean you're fine with the 325 price tag? 

[Slips]

...Yeah. Massive >_> Theres a surprising amount of blast templates.

 

Yeah 325 is fine with the amount of innate shenanigans it has on offer and isnt that much more than an actually fully-loaded Storm Eagle (comes to around 295).

[simison]

Excellent. Well, that wraps it all up. I'll collect all of the unit changes and send them to Grifft today. All that leaves is unit descriptions for the banners for the unique units. My next post on this thread will start going through the characters. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by simison

[Slips]

Cool!

 

The next part will be...interesting :p

[simison]

Metis Odyssalas

 

Comparison Base: Praetor (100 pts)

 

Attributes

• -1 Attack: (-5) points 
  

Total: (-5) points

 

Wargear

• Iron Halo: 25 points
  
• Iona-Pattern N.Array: 30 points
  
• Volkite Charger: 10 points
  
• Ladon (P.Wpn. [15 pts] + +2 S [20 pts] + MC [5 pts] + Rending 5+ [30 pts] - Two-Handed [5 pts] + Alternate profile [5 pts]): 80 points
  

Total: 145 points

 

Special Rules

• Furious Charge: 10 points
  
• Stubborn: 15 points
  

 

Total: 25 points

 

Total cost: 165 points

 

Recommend overall cost: 265 points

 

Notes: 

• Why is his armour void-hardened? This is a double question. What is the fluff reason? And why bother since the 2+ save acts like Void-Hardened already?
  
• Well, you nearly broke my mind. Saw the Iona-pattern and went to add a price tag and froze. I was momentarily unsure which price tag since there are two different price tags, but I went with the Primus cost since both are elite leaders.
  
• What the heck is Ladon? A spear, a sword, or something else? And the pointages had been so simple before I ran into it.
  
• He still needs a warlord trait.
  
• Soooo, that escalated quickly. This puts him at least 25 points over the character limit, and it's because of his gear. The worst part is, I think the Rending 5+ is what helps him stand out the most and wouldn't mind if he kept it. It's one thing for a legion to have it as an unique weapon *glares at the Godslayers* but it's less of an issue for a single character to have it. Actually, if you're going to have above average Rending, than why bother with all of the Strength upgrades? They seem to work against each other to make the weapon less efficient overall. 
  
• Besides tweaking Ladon, my other recommendations are to switch out the charger for a serpenta and nix one or two of his special rules.
  

[Slips]

Odyssalas, while a Scion Character, was also supposed to primarily be a Knight-Errant equivalent at a later date

 

• Void-Hardened is mostly a Fluffstification option than a Gameplay one, really. Though it does give him a 2+ Re-rollable armour save vs non ap2 blasts and templates...
• Go with the Primus cost.
• Ladon is a Polearm akin to a Guan Dao, iirc. Compare it to a Wave Blade because thats more or less what it is but slightly different. Also, shouldnt 2 handed be a point reduction instead of addition since its more detrimental than beneficial? As such, it should more or less follow the Standard Wave Blade profile (post changes) with the alternate profile and 2 handed being the only real difference.
• Serpenta is fine.
• Stubborn or FC leaving is also fine.

But the fluff behind his entire being a thing is Blunts creation so I'll leave that last one up to him if anything though personal preference would be Furious Charge.

 

Also, as a random aside, Power Weapons in 30k are 10pts and Power Fists are 15 with Thunder Hammers/Chainfists being 20.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Slipstreams

[bluntblade]

There are regular glaive rules, right? If not, the White Scars will get some as at least two major characters favour them.

 

I think I researched Warlord Traits and recommended one to Slips. Let me go check.

 

Edit: I wanted either Paragon of Glory or Offence Master, Slips favoured the former. Though even as I type this, I'm looking at the old table and wondering if a command trait wouldn't be better...

Edited January 9, 2017 by bluntblade

[Slips]

The only glaive weapons that exists is the White Scars 30k Power Glaive.

[bluntblade]

Can we use that as a template?

 

While I'm vacillating about traits, does Master of Vanguard mean extra dice rolls for movement? The description in the DakkaDakka breakdown was a bit confusing. I'm gonna guess that the "extra inch" for Coordinated Assault means units can cover more ground, as for Princeps of Deceit I'm in the dark. I'm leaning towards this more to capture Odyssalas the canny leader, rather than a combat monster.

[simison]

Quick post, before I walk out the door.

 

Power Weapons are 15 points for Praetors and Centurions. Sergeants have to pay 10 points. Looks like it's an extra charge for being an officer over a NCO. 

 

Blunt, I have the rulebook.

 

Master of the Vanguard simply adds one extra inch.

 

Coordinated Assault allows the Warlord and all Friendly units within 12' to reroll To Hit rolls of 1. 

 

There is no power for an extra die roll for movement in the Command Traits. The closest is The Dust of a Thousand Worlds, and that's just Move Through Cover for Warlord and all Friendly units within 12'. 

[bluntblade]

OK. I'm still puzzled about the extra inch. Is this shooting range?

[Slips]

Quick post, before I walk out the door.

 

Power Weapons are 15 points for Praetors and Centurions. Sergeants have to pay 10 points. Looks like it's an extra charge for being an officer over a NCO. 

 

Blunt, I have the rulebook.

 

Master of the Vanguard simply adds one extra inch.

 

Coordinated Assault allows the Warlord and all Friendly units within 12' to reroll To Hit rolls of 1. 

 

There is no power for an extra die roll for movement in the Command Traits. The closest is The Dust of a Thousand Worlds, and that's just Move Through Cover for Warlord and all Friendly units within 12'. 

Shows how rarely I take weapons that aren't Paragon Blades or Power Fists on characters.

OK. I'm still puzzled about the extra inch. Is this shooting range?

1" to run or charge within 12" of the WL

[bluntblade]

So units around Odyssalas cover more ground when charging? Sounds pretty handy.

[Slips]

Yeah but 1" on a 2D6" charge isnt all that much since at worst its 3" instead of 2" or 13" instead of 12". Its nice but not ALL that useful.

 

Unless its that ONE time i fail a 3" charge by rolling double 1s.

[bluntblade]

Right. So would the other command/tactical one be handier?

[simison]

Alright, for a more in-depth response...

 

Slips, you meant simple Hardened Armour. Void-Hardened and Hardened are two separate rules, which is why I'm confused. Any 2+ armour gets all of the benefits of Void-Hardened. We could leave the name if you simply want to emphasize the fluff side.

 

The Serpenta saves 5 points, which leaves him at 260. Removing FC or Stubborn will bring it down to 245/250 points. He's still too pricey. 

 

As for Ladon, I did subtract Two-Handed from the cost. *rereads Wave Blade entry* Hm, you're right. Originally, I didn't factor in the cost for a power weapon as a base for the original Wave Blade. That's a 15 point difference between 80 and 45. 20 points can be explained by MC and the stronger Rending, while the alternate profile and Duelist's Edge almost cancel each other.

 

If I take out the base cost for the power weapon, that brings it down to 65 points for the weapon and 230/235 points overall. That's still uncomfortable. Since only Ody is the only getting the 5+ Rending, why not reduce the strength and ditch the alternate weapon profile? That would be bring him down to a final tally of 215/220. Still pricey, but not overwhelmingly so.

 

Blunt, out of the three traits I listed, Coordinated Assault sounds the most useful, though it overlaps with Master-Crafted. Granted, you could go that route and ditch the Master-Crafted. Or something else.

[Slips]

I'd go:

 

Ditch MC, Nerf Rending down to 6+, S bonus only in alternate profile and ditching Stubborn.

 

Take Coordinated Assault as the WLT.

 

Problem with Void-Hardened and Hardened armour is that, depending on which version you read, they're either the same, different or affects all saves not just armour ie: Legion Version, Solar-Aux Version (Which technically allows re-rolls to invulns vs blasts and templates) and potentially an Admech Version too.

[simison]

260 points is the starting point.

 

Warlord Traits are free for special characters.

 

-MC (5 pts) = 255

 

-Normal Rending (15 pts) = 240

 

-2 S (10 pts) = 230 

 

-Stubborn (15 pts) = 215 

 

I'm adding 5 points since the alternate profile now has more utility than simply switching S and AP, which puts him at 220.

 

The last question is the armour. Do you want whichever version gives the reroll against Blast & etc for 10 points?

[Slips]

No, at this stage just straight up artificer armour is good enough.

[simison]

Then Ody is finished. I'll compile the changes and send it up to Grifft.

 

Inna is up next.

[Slips]

Well, apart from the Primarch, I think this is the one thats going to make you go "BUT WHY!?" the most when it comes to a single, specific piece of gear...