Insurrectionists' Strategium

[Hesh Kadesh]

Perhaps a scorched earth approach. The remnants of the Loyalists destroying the sun so noone can claim the manufactoria?

[Doctor Perils]

I have to be honest, I don't see why people want to destroy the sun ? What did it do to anybody ?

[Skalpynock]

Kozja and Jade will be the other dual force, and their target will be Azus, trying to pin him down and execute him.

I can see a great deal of shots being exchanged between Azus' rifle and Kozja's pistols, and probably lots of urban warfare where these two traitor legions do not necessarily excel.

[Sigismund229]

Destroy the sun and cause it to go supernova because that will make the world essentialy useless to the loyalists(just look at what happened to Calth). And for destroying the manufactories, I was thinking of it as something they did as they were withdrawing in order to mean the loyalist victory is a hollow one at best.

 

Probably we should cut back the forces involved. For the loyalists I think the Iron Bears. They'd have the gear and it would give them somewhere they can make an impact

[MikhalLeNoir]

Hmm, well what if Not the traitors, but the loyalists have to destroy the sun? Could be a very hard decission for the loyalists, but maybe they have no choice. They lose ground to the traitors and in their despair they have no Choice, cuz they can't Afford, that the traitors Hain Control of this Important forgeworld and Alexandros don't have enough troops to turn the Tide. So if they destroy the forgeworld, they believe, they can Even the Things out and give the traitors a Hard thing to chew. Sometimes you have to become the Monster, to Win a war.

 

So we get away from the light Vs darkness and have more grey tones.

 

Of course the Wardens of Light Are against the destruction of a sun. Never kill Light ;)

Edited September 3, 2015 by MikhalLeNoir

[Chief Captain Redd]

I could see the Bears knocking out said planet(s) to save a system or more, knocking out a star though could potentially cause issues for light years upon light years around, that's something that'd have to have major implications.

[Demus Ragnok]

It wouldn't be necessary to send the star nova.

 

Just cause it to go red giant.

 

Planets in the system would be useless with damage to neighboring systems.

[Raktra]

I have to be honest, I don't see why people want to destroy the sun ? What did it do to anybody ?

:cuss YOU SPACE.

[Slips]

I can definitely see the Loyalists, realizing they are outnumbered and outmatched, would rather Torch/Glass the world and all the resources they couldn't take with them than let them fall into the hands of the Traitor Forces.

 

Dont forget, There exists Armory Worlds in the Imperium whose sole purpose is to stockpile munitions and war materiel. Doesnt necessarily have to be an attack on a Forgeworld. 

[Doctor Perils]

It wouldn't be necessary to send the star nova.

 

Just cause it to go red giant.

 

Planets in the system would be useless with damage to neighboring systems.

 

Yeah, but all buildings and equipment on the planet are absolutely destroyed. Even if the other side take the planet, they'd have to spend a hell of a long time repairing it, time they simply don't have during a civil war.

 

In the same way, you're going to need to use a helluva lot of energy, (be it nuclear, explosive etc.) - and probably time - to destroy a sun, both things that the loser of that battle  (or winner for that matter) do not have while they are fleeing for their lives...

 

What's more, if you go down this path, you are absolutely guaranteeing that neither the enemy or you will ever be able to use the few resources still on the planet in three years (the absolute minimum to repair the manufactoria on the planet)... You are hindering yourself just as much as the enemy. More, when you consider the previous argument.

 

In the case where you absolutely absolutely absolutely want to ensure the enemy doesn't get the stuff on the planet... Why don't you just Exterminatusate the planet itself: we know this is possible, nearly easily in some places. What's more, you are going to be near guaranteeing the deaths of the soldiers still on the planet. And finally, causing damage to the sun is likely to cause absolute havoc with any machine spirits on fleeing vessels, plus navigators or astropaths, causing yet more problems for the fleeing forces.

 

 

 

Destroy the sun and cause it to go supernova because that will make the world essentialy useless to the loyalists(just look at what happened to Calth). And for destroying the manufactories, I was thinking of it as something they did as they were withdrawing in order to mean the loyalist victory is a hollow one at best.

 

Probably we should cut back the forces involved. For the loyalists I think the Iron Bears. They'd have the gear and it would give them somewhere they can make an impact

 

The thing is, it really isn't what happened at Calth. Calth was basically a massive sacrifice to the Dark Gods, combined with an ambush against the massed forces of the Ultramarines. Calth was planed for years in advance by Lorgar and Horus. And as you'll notice in the endless books about Calth, it didn't actually destroy anything in and of itself. It just rendered the planet uninhabitable when unprotected. So going by this estimate, damaging the sun wouldn't even accomplish the objectives you set out to.

 

After a year or more of a meat grinding tank battle, believe me, there aren't going to be any intact buildings standing. Saying the traitors are destroying the manufactoria behind them sounds to me more like moustache twirling for the sake of it...

 

 

 

Sorry, you might have understood this, but I'm pretty much set against the senseless destruction of resources for the sake of it. I'm really thinking of this battle like a high attrition, highly destructive battle over several years, destroying anything that's actually worth fighting for. This is why it would leave a bitter taste with both sides. Seeing a grey pile of rubble that extends from horizon to horizon, knowing that it was all for naught, is to me far more moving then reading "the traitors/loyalists were losing, so out of sheer pettiness they blew the sun up because they'd got mustaches that would make Poirot proud."

[Demus Ragnok]

@ We are talking about a scorched earth senario.

 

A last desperate act of out matched loyalists to keep respurces out of traitor hands.

 

Maybe there is an experimental star killer weapon on the forgeworld.

[Sigismund229]

Iyarax campaign V.2.0

Note: I was listening to Sabaton Attero Dominatus slightly louder than was good for me when writing this so there might be a bit much senseless destruction.

 

Information on the World:

 

Iyacrax IV is a forge world located to the galactic north of the Imperium. Some estimates place its productive output as high as 4% of all super heavies used by the Imperium and Legiones Astartes. It has a population of 93 billion, the totality of which is indentured to work in the planets continent sized manufactories. Due to its industrial importance, pre insurrection the world had a garrison of some billion Imperial Army troopers and a rotating garrison of Iron Bears and Halycon Wardens.

 

The Battle:

 

In the begining of the 2nd year of the Insurrection, Icarion began to establish his position and the stability of the Imperium Secundus. Key to this was securing a number of key forge worlds and hubs of warp transport. Among the most important of these was Iyacrax IV. To secure this world, he sent a force consisting of his trusted Lightning Bearers and the stoic Warbringers as well as nearly a billion unaugmented auxilia and the Legio Astarus.

 

On Iyacrax IV, the defenders, freshly bolstered by elements of the Iron Bears and Legio Astorum, retreating from the ambush over (insert here), as well as hastily raised Workers militia battalions, had not beem idle. They had begun to fortify the world on a scale never before seen as well as begining to move production facilities underground. However, before these measures could be completed, the traitor fleet arrived above Iyacrax.

 

Cornered as they were, the Iyacrax defence fleet fought like lions, devoid of care for anything but the moment. However, as the war in orbit was fought out, it soon became clear that the Iyacrax defence fleet would not be able to hold off the vastly superior traitor fleet. And so, they sold their lives dearly, aiming to inflict as much hurt upon the imavders as possible. However, before they could be annihilated, Captain (insert here) of the Halycon Wardens, leader of the ground forces, ordered them to break off from the engagement.

"Brothers, Admiral Titus Solon, you can do no more good by dying in the heavens. By your brave sacrifice the enemy has been held a week. However, now I order you to disengage. Bleed the enemy from a thousand cuts. Farewell". Captain (inser here) of the Halycon Wardens.

 

As such, those remaining fleet elements broke off from the engagement and withdrew in order to re group. So it was that the traitors were allowed to make planetfall on Iyacrax. The first elements to make planetfall were the Lightning Bearers, most feared of the legions. While the garrison fought bravely, the unaugmented humans were unable to match the astartes and the Halycon Wardens and Iron Bears were outnumbered by their traitorous bretheren. Slowly but surely, the Imperial forces were pushed back from the original landing grounds into the manufactories. As the Lightning Bearers and Warbringers advanced along the steel gantries and corridoors of the deserted manufactories, they were often ambushed by platoons of humans or charged by astartes kill teams. However, despite the bravery of the defenders, the traitors still gained ground.

 

By the fourth month of the ground war, the situation looked hopeless for the loyalists. Much of the planet lay in traitorous hands and no more could be evacuated underground. It seemed that only a grim and bitter, but ultimately futile struggle in the tunnels was the final fate of the loyalists. However, the Iyacrax defence fleet had continued to raid the enemy fleet and harass them. When transmitions from the surface ceased, Captain (Insert here) of the Irom Bears came up with a desperate scheme to deny the traitors the world. He suggested that the Imperials fire their guns at the worlds sun in order to cause it to supernova and destroy or irradiate everything on the worlds surface. Using the Angelica Mortis, a weapon that had long been part of the Iyacrax defence fleet, left by the tech lords who had once inhabited Iyacrax, the thus render the world useless to the traitors. After repeated attempts to make contact with the surface troops failed, Admiral Prol reluctantly agreed to such a stratagem.

 

So it was that on the next raid, the fleet fired the Angelica Mortis at the sun. While the fleets were able to withdraw, the ground troops, oblivious to what was occuring above, were left exposed to the rapidly rising levels of radiation. While the astartes were saved by their armours systems for long enough to withdraw underground, many of their accompanying human troops would not be so lucky. Within weeks of the use of the Angelica Mortis, the death toll amongst the unaugmented humans had risen to just over 200 million along with countless civilians.

 

When, two months after the Angelica Mortis' use, the two sides began to emerge from their underground shelters to inspect the surface and to check what, if any, of the manufactories were salvageable. As they did so in their armoures vehicles, the battle of Iyacrax entered its second phase. Unable to survive outside of their armoured vehicles for any length of time, the two sides went to war over the ruins of Iyacrax once more.

 

Those of the manufactories that had not been reduced to radioactive slag were hotly contested, with legions of armoured vehicles shelling each other amidst their ruins, often grinding usable parts to dust beneath their treads in the heat of battles. Those manufactories that survived these battles were soon pressed into service by both sides as places to re supply and repair their vehicles amidst the never ending carnage of a world at war. However, those targets of no strategic importance, former hab units mostly, were not so jealously guarded. If they weren't destroyed by the constant shelling then they would be mined by one side or the other to try and inflict maximum damage on their enemies armour.

 

For five years the two armies clashed, fighting over the pitiful ruins of Iyacrax. In this time, most of the planets huge manufactories and hab block districts, were reduced to ruins amd rubble. Iyacrax was reduced to a shadow of its former self, an irradiated wasteland of never ending seas of rubble. The planets value was reduced yet further when, when a loyalist relief force arrived, the traitors, seeing that they could not hold out against this new wave of troops, destroyed whatever buildings of value were in their possesion in order to deny them to the enemy.

[Raktra]

Hehehehe, :cuss you, sun.

[Athrawes]

Yeah. Destroying the sun sounds like a really bad plot point. I honestly can't see a tactical reason to do it and I'm pretty sure flat out destroying a star is pretty well beyond what the imperium should be capable of. Even if you just want to damage the star badly enough that it renders a planet worthless, understand, at calth the they had perhaps one of the most powerful concentrations of weapons in the galexy pointed at the star and they had to sustain the kind of devestation for a while.

 

This does not strike me as something a fleeing force can manage. Even if enough of their fleet survived to do it (which seems super doubtful, because you know, they are FLEEING) they would need to maintain a sustained bombardment to even barely harm the star. Which again, seems like something they would Not have time for if they are fleeing.

 

So either they have enough time and a big enough fleet to do it, in which case why would they flee? Or they don't, and so obviously they shouldn't be able to manage it.

 

And, the idea that there is a magic super weapon capable of destroying a sun quickly enough just sort of screams Deus Ex Machina. And is a lazy plot device.

 

So, to sum up, bad, poorly conceived idea is bad.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Athrawes

[Raktra]

They could do that thing Autek Mor did in book 4, basically have the planet seeded with secret nukes as a safety measure? Just make it entirely useless.

[Chief Captain Redd]

For the damage Sigismund is talking about all that would be needed is a very large solar flare. Which is far more plausible. But yes destroying a star would realistically require the energy of another star. To either quickly burn of the hydrogen fuel supply or collapse the gravitational core of the star.

[Doctor Perils]

Thank you Athrawes !

 

Sorry if this post may seem a bit snarky, by all rights I should be asleep and should come back to this in the morning. I have genuine concerns about this idea, but I really don't want to upset anyone. Now that the disclaimer's over and done with http://image.bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png ...

 

I really have no idea why you want to crow bar in this idea of damaging the sun. It shouldn't be a question how to do it, but why. There is pretty much no reason why they would want to damage the star (which by the way I can't conceive of having the effect you describe, but this isn't hard science, it's fan-made science fantasy), especially when you consider that they still have to fight on afterwards. If they've got a starkilling weapon in their arsenal (btw: it couldn't be angelica mortis, that's the poetic name for the space marines...), why don't they turn it against the traitor vessels ? And they don't seem heavy hearted about it,, they just go "oh yeah, what happens if we shoot that star ?"... This isn't a bad American apocalypse story, where the answer to every http://image.bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_emoticons/default/censored.gif ing problem is to nuke it to make an even bigger explosion that saves the day. Real life doesn't work like that, 40k doesn't work like that !

 

EDIT : the forge world's population has to go down drastically : Mars's population is 20 billion, and I think it's safe to say it's going to be the biggest and most populous forge world there is.

 

Scorched earth doesn't mean either that you absolutely destroy the http://image.bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_emoticons/default/censored.gif out of everything, you are just removing resources temporarily so that the enemy can't use them during the war. After the war is over, the peasants start cultivating the fields again.

 

The war has to be shorter. One year min okay, but I'd also say 2 years tops. Otherwise you're tying in a hell of a lot of troops in a senseless battle : if I were the general their, I'd recognise that the Manufactoria were destroyed once and for all, and retreat, placing my soldiers in a more interesting place in the campaign, even if it meant letting the other side keep the pile of rubble.

 

Why are you still saying two (detachments of) legions per side ? I can accept this, but if their is good reasoning behind it. Otherwise, keep it simple. Don't forget that the Mechanicum already have incredible forces on each forge world, when you consider: combat-servitors, skitarii, battle-automata, all manner of tanks and walkers including super-heavy tanks, Knights, Titans, and finally ordinatii... And those are the more common ones !

 

[arrogant mode]The creative process doesn't always involve finding ways to put all the best ideas in. It sometimes revolves about pooling all relevant ideas, inspecting them, debating why it is a good idea to put one thing in or not, then discarding the ones that don't fit, and finding a place in the final story for those that do. Even then, if an idea that still seemed like a good idea needs crow-barring in by finding all manner of complicated ways to make it fit, it probably didn't belong in the jigsaw puzzle.[/arrogant mode]

 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but Athrawes and I have given some arguments as to why we don't think destroying/damaging/solar flaring the sun is a good idea. Further, we've provided an example of how to make it a bit more plausible for all the pyromaniacs (namely, Exterminatus on the planet). Now, I'd like to ask for some justification on your part as to actually why you want it this way. If you give me a reason I can grasp, then fine, keep it. Otherwise, I'd like to continue the debate (positive, constructive debate that is).

 

 

Once again, I'd like to apologize for how snarky I'm sure I sounded. I wish no offence, and I would be happy to tone it down in the morning if you deem it necessary.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Lord Thørn

[Slips]

Well, if we do want to absolutely keep Damaging a Sun into the Story, causing a Solar Flare with the Accompanying Coronal Mass Ejection would be the most probable to occur. If it were made powerful enough, the Amount of Particles that would Bombard the Surrounding Planets, depending on how close they are and if they were in the right place, would Irradiate anything not protected by a Strong Planetary Atmosphere.

 

Additionally, it may cause a Planet-Wide EMP and, depending on how powerful it is and how long the Flare Bombards the planet, could pretty much scrap anything of Technological Value on the planet.

 

 

The Wikipedia Articles on the Subject are pretty solid and might give you a better Idea of what is realistically possible to achieve for the Story:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_flare
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-ray_burst
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronal_mass_ejection
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_storm
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_particle_event
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ray

As well as give you an idea as to what would happen to a Planet and anything in its Orbit that gets hit by all this.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Slipstreams

[MikhalLeNoir]

Pro Argument: hell of a Show

Con Argument: senseless hell of a show

 

 

For the tactics why they would fight so Long: the forgeworld could also have a strategical Position. Maybe it opens a fast corridor to Terra for the traitors. You don' t ASK why Germany fought in stalingrad during ww2. They could have March around After it was reduced to the pile of dust

[Grifftofer]

Just to add onto Thorn and Athrawes's points. The only time to my knowledge that a star is damaged in a major way in 40k is during the Gothic War. And that requires the combined power of 3 Activated Blackstone Fortresses, which are believed to have been built by the Old Ones and therefore of a significantly higher tech level than the Imperium. Even during 30k. I think that I would have to agree that exterminatus fits the needs and capabilities better than a star damaging superweapon, if any such device is needed at all.

[MikhalLeNoir]

I Hoped for a deathstar typed device and maybe an assault with Little Fighters. I Envision a narrow corridor filled with Defense turrets and evil imperials who destroy the Whole attackformation of the rebels except of one, who is ,because of bis super human Powers,(which awakens just in Time), Able to destroy that damn thing and the day is Saved.....

...could be very good Movie Material....http://image.bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_emoticons/default/msn-wink.gif


But Yeah, a super Nova is no Must, but what is a Must, is a dark decission, the loyalists have to make in Order to leave the hollywoodesque Pathos of Black and white


And let make Alexandros this decission. Against Maybe the opinion of Other primarchs. He should ne the good guy and yet he erradicates a whole Planet?
Then it would be interesting to See, what the loyalists think about it. Could lead to a bit tension among their Ranks. Aaaaaaand: who says, that all traitors have to join the insurrection direct At the Start? That would be boring storytelling. There could be At least one who doesn't agree with certain decissions made and therefore Chose over Time the Other Side, which seems more just to him and then he is lead to external damnation.

Edited September 4, 2015 by MikhalLeNoir

[Praefectus Invictus]

On a different note, have we decided on our variant of the shadow crusade yet? And the legions involved, because I'd like to get some ideas kicking around with those involved. I know the Stygian Jackals, Berserkers of Uran and (Void Eagles?) are the traitors, but not sure on the loyalists.

[Sigismund229]

The loyalists are the Crimson Lions. The 3rd traitpr legion is the Eagle Warriors who are guiding the Berzerkers of Uran down the path to become Khornes chosen legion.

 

Thørn, the reason there are two astartes detacents for either side is that for the loyalists, it's been agreed that the Halycon Wardens were placed on garrison duty throughout the Imperium. It would make sense for some to be there. The Iron Bears are there because I feel excell at this kind of fighting and this is where a pirtion them ended up after they were scattered after Dear'dds death(I'm assuming they'll behave like a canon legion when their primarch dies)

 

On the traitor side, the Warbringers are there to give them some screen time as I haven't seen them recieve much. They're meant to be the majority of the invasion force. The Lightning Bearers are there because I doubt that Icarion would send this invasion force for a world this important without at least some of his own legion to oversee it.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Sigismund229

[Praefectus Invictus]

So we have something like this:

 

Loyalists

• Crimson Lions 
• Iron Bears
• Halcyon Wardens

Traitors

• Berserkers of Uran
• Stygian Jackals
• Warbringers
• Lightning Bearers
• Void Eagles

 

Am I right? This is a good solid mix with a nice amount of specialties. Should I (or someone else) open a thread to detail it?

[Sigismund229]

The Void Eagles are loyalists :)

 

The traitor legions are elements of the Eagle Warriors, Berzerkers of Uran and Stygian Jackals. The loyalists are the Crimson Lions+whatever remnants of the loyal legions that have washed up in their empire.