The Grail Wardens: a Liber Astartes Group Project

[Olis]

I think I'd be more inclined to have a tale revolving around the "Last of the Silver Sons" - the ones left after the destruction of their Chapter. Of course, offing a few marines from a dead Chapter could be a crime for the Knights Resplendent to perpetrate quite easily while making themselves look suitably villainous. If SlaveToDarkness fancies that sort of tale, of course.

[Arkangilos]

I can make a map soonish. I have photoshop and whatnot.

 

The initial crusade was after the thirteenth founding, but the newer battle is somewhere closer to the current 40k timeline (we actually haven't set a date yet).

 

Also, Minigiant, it doesn't matter all that much to me, but I noticed you said Remaining Imperium. I'm not sure if you mean that's all that's left in the area. If it is I meant that you would actually be spearheading a huge counter crusade into the region. I mean if you aren't down for that, that's fine, that can be one of the "map events"

[Minigiant]

 

Also, Minigiant, it doesn't matter all that much to me, but I noticed you said Remaining Imperium. I'm not sure if you mean that's all that's left in the area. If it is I meant that you would actually be spearheading a huge counter crusade into the region. I mean if you aren't down for that, that's fine, that can be one of the "map events"

I just said remaining Imperium because I have no other idea as to how to distinguish between the Wardens, Chaos and the not chaos not wardens, if that makes sense

 

 

Maybe sorting out the Red Crusade, the Crimson Knights and Carmine Cardinals should be the first point of call

Edited May 4, 2016 by Minigiant

[Sir Perfluous]

Should we write up a full IA for the Cardinals or just the notes we need? If we got together a few ideas for themes and beliefs etc, I'd be willing to get an IA together. Edited May 4, 2016 by Sir Perfluous

[Doctor Perils]

If you're up to writing a full IA you can go ahead. However, I don't think they're really the most important part. Yes, we need to expand on them, but, bluntly, they're pretty much just a tool.

 

 

 

 

Also, I think that one of the interesting things about this project is that it is secondary compared to the forces themselves. That is to say that each of the members are developing their chapters as they see fit, and then they participate in a group project with them. This is different to a lot of other group projects in which the chapters created are created specifically for that project.

Of course, this design "philosophy" fits in completely with how the Chapters we are focussing on think themselves :)

 

I am just writing this here as a reminder of where we started off, so that we don't fall into the trap of connecting everything about our chapters/(other forces) to the Grail Wardens, as I think that it would be ultimately harmful to the quality both of the chapters and of the Grail Wardens.

 

 

 

Now, I may be very wrong on both those points, feel free to disagree :)

 

[sidenote]I've got a long weekend coming up. "Unfortunately" (ie, unfortunately for my hobby activities) my parents are coming to visit during that time, so I won't be able to do too much in the next few days. Hopefully I'll be able to come over down to the forum in the evenings.[/sidenote]

[Slave to Darkness]

Yeah Im cool with offing a few marines from a dead chapter. :lol:

[Sir Perfluous]

If you're up to writing a full IA you can go ahead. However, I don't think they're really the most important part. Yes, we need to expand on them, but, bluntly, they're pretty much just a tool.

I'd like to do something to flesh them out properly and give them some character. I think we owe them that before we ruthlessly murder them for plot purposes.

 

[sidenote]I've got a long weekend coming up. "Unfortunately" (ie, unfortunately for my hobby activities) my parents are coming to visit during that time, so I won't be able to do too much in the next few days. Hopefully I'll be able to come over down to the forum in the evenings.[/sidenote]

This is why all heroes are orphans, Thørn. Now we can see where your true loyalties lie. :)

[Kelborn]

Will write down the basics of my participating House over the weekend and upload them to discuss.

 

I like how this project came to life again and it's like there never was a pause. ^^ effective progress. :)

[Minigiant]

Should we write up a full IA for the Cardinals or just the notes we need? If we got together a few ideas for themes and beliefs etc, I'd be willing to get an IA together.

I think it will be good to get a rough outline soon, as it helps with the Last Cardinal story and their actions in the Red Crusade. A full IA is not required but will be nice to round off the story at the end

[Minigiant]

So I used a lot of what was already here, edited and added a little of my own.

 

Time Line

M31

Sanguinary Crusaders founded (2^nd)

 

M32 - M34

Knights Revenant founded (3rd?)

Archangels founded (4^th)

Carmine Cardinals founded (5^th)

Red Sentinels founded (6^th)

Crimson Knights founded (7^th)

M35

Knights Resplendent founded (21^st Cursed founding)

M36

While the first founding chapters were called to contribute to these crusades, very few were in fact able to participate. In particular, the Blood Angels were asked by the High Lords of Terra to secure five sectors in the Segmentum Pacificus, who had at the time seceded alongside Nova Terra.

The IX Legion were at the time occupied with the final destruction of the forces of WAAAGH Vangrod and the Chaos Incursion of Silas Gorehand, and were constrained to pass on their regrets to the masters of Humanity. However, in order to preserve the reputation of the Sons of Sanguinius, the conclave of the descendants of the Blood Angels convened, and proposed a joint force of successor chapters: and so, the Sanguinary Crusaders, the Knights Resplendent, the Crimson Knights and the Carmine Cardinals would take part in a campaign that would go down in their annals as the Red Crusade.

This operation would prove pivotal in the history of these chapters, yet today, they remember little of it but the taking of the world of Golgotha. Golgotha had always been an extremely populous planet, and had even been considered a shrine world for three different factions within the Ecclesiarchy for the past two Millenia before the Nova Terra Interregnum.

This of course caused many tensions between the inhabitants, and the secession of the Planetary Governor did nothing but compound rivalries and enmities: finally, civil war broke out among them, a war that lasted five centuries, during which the earth of Golgotha saw countless deaths, murders and other atrocities. These proved to be fertile ground for Chaos Cults, and without supervision on behalf of the Inquisition or the Adeptus Arbites, the religious tensions progressively turned the combat into something unholy.

Little today is known of the events that transpired during those dark years, but when the host of the Red Crusade at Golgotha, they discovered what can be best described as a Warp Rift. Upon the surface of the planet, mortals fought, drank, and cavorted with Daemons…

The assault on the planet was brutal, it engulfed the planet in fire and waged on for days. The Crimson Knights bore the brunt of the casualties, freely lying down their lives so other brothers may live. The assault was futile however for every one they pushed back or laid in the ground, another two would spill from the world beyond.

Chief Librarian [NAME] of the Sanguinary Crusaders proposed a bold plan, in collusion with the Chief Librarians of the three other chapters, they would seal the rift through a bolt oath upon the chalice of eight. It worked and eventually the tide began to turn in the favour of the Emperor and it was not long before they were standing in the ruins of Golgotha. When the smoke and haze finally cleared they had realised what they had achieved and the cost that had been paid. The ritual had created a blood oath to protect the grail for if it was reversed the consequences would tear their chapters apart. The Crimson Knights were left in tatters, a shadow of their former glory. They vowed to rebuild and recover what they could, however the damage was too severe because within a hundred years they were official determined destroyed.

Knowing that their three chapters would be incapable of properly defending the grail, each chapter provided their greatest ancestral specialist apothecary to track down their descendants so that they may take up the oath. By the end of M36 the Wardens ranks and swelled with Knights Revenant, Archangels, and Red Sentinels taking up the oath

 

M37

 

Silver Sons founded (14th)

Crimson Host Founded (14th)

Order of the Abyss founded

 

M37 nearly passed without incident, the Wardens ranks swelled further with the Silver Sons and Crimson Host also taking up the oath. The worrying part was that they had began to receive requests from the Adeptus Sororitas Order of the Abyss to examine the Grail, clearly a leak had appeared within the coalition.

 

Silver Sons destroyed

 

M38

Carmine Cardinals destroyed by Knights Resplendent - The Last Cardinal story

Crusade begins to retrieve the Grail

 

@SlavetoDarkness by you being present in the Red Crusade, against chaos, it gives you an opportunity to become tainted their?

 

We actually may need a 2nd thread,as the first half dozen pages here discuss a lot of ideas that were dismissed

Edited May 5, 2016 by Minigiant

[Doctor Perils]

Right, I've got a bit of time on my hands so I've just started out with the timeline a bit.

 

A couple of pages back (13), it had been discussed that the Knights Revenant could descend from the Knights Resplendant. If the latter are now being founded as late as the Cursed Founding, does that change this idea ? It could just as well be the other way round.

 

Perf', do you know when you want the Knights Revenant to be founded ?

 

Just to be clear, the descendance of the Carmine cardinals are, as far as I remember:

 

                                                                //=> Silver Sons

Carmine Cardinals ==> Red Sentinels

                                                                \\=> Crimson Host

 

This is already quite a full family tree when compared to most chapters, so if there are any other chapter relationships, I'd avoid sticking them onto the Carmine Cardinals again.

On the other hand, it's also possible that one of the reasons the Carmine Cardinals were destroyed is because they had lost a lot of their gene-seed stocks through too many successor chapters...

 

So, anyway, are there any relations between the Sanguinary Crusaders, the Archangels, the [Crimson Knights] and both KRs ?

 

 

 

EDIT: Ninjajajajaaa....

Edited May 5, 2016 by Lord Thørn

[Sir Perfluous]

I have to say, Minigiant, you've taken command of this project masterfully. :)

 

The timeline seems mostly alright, though I have a couple of points. Firstly about the foundings on the timeline - I think we had the other members of the Wardens recruited after the Crusade be successors of the Cardinals. That's what I remember writing on the Knights Rev. IA, anyway. That's not set in stone, though, and could be tweaked.

 

Secondly, why do the post-crusade chapters take the oath? We might've already done this and I just lack the ability to read things, but it doesn't seem as though they have any kind of involvement in the story before the Librarians shut the rift that that would lead them to participate in the Warding and Crusading.

 

Also, (I lied when I said a couple) how is it that the Librarians manage to shut the rift? Do four librarians have that sort of power or was it amplified somehow, causing them to burn out and die?

 

Sorry if it just seems like I'm just throwing questions around.

 

EDIT: This ninjaing has got to stop!

 

@Thørn: I could see the Knights Revemant being descended from the Ks Resplendant. They've got a bit of a self-hating, we-aren't-noble-enough complex going on, and that would heighten it.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Sir Perfluous

[Doctor Perils]

double post, internet's playing up

Edited May 5, 2016 by Lord Thørn

[Doctor Perils]

I have to say, Minigiant, you've taken command of this project masterfully.

 

The timeline seems mostly alright, though I have a couple of points. Firstly about the foundings on the timeline - I think we had the other members of the Wardens recruited after the Crusade be successors of the Cardinals. That's what I remember writing on the Knights Rev. IA, anyway. That's not set in stone, though, and could be tweaked.

 

Secondly, why do the post-crusade chapters take the oath? We might've already done this and I just lack the ability to read things, but it doesn't seem as though they have any kind of involvement in the story before the Librarians shut the rift that that would lead them to participate in the Warding and Crusading.

 

Also, (I lied when I said a couple) how is it that the Librarians manage to shut the rift? Do four librarians have that sort of power or was it amplified somehow, causing them to burn out and die?

 

Sorry if it just seems like I'm just throwing questions around.

 

EDIT: This ninjaing has got to stop!

 

The chapters that become wardens later are all descended from chapters that took part in the Red Crusade (not necessarily just the Cardinals), as they are of the same blood as those who shut the Rift and swore the blood oath.

Of course, i say shut, but it is really a temporary measure since, as you say, a few Librarians (I'd be tempted to say a bit more than 4) don't necessarily have that kind of power. They do die during the ritual though, which is why we don't know the true nature of the Grail (we know that the Librarians used it as a big part of the ritual and it is that that is keeping the door shut, but not where it came from)

 

 

I've also been considering that the original Grail Wardens (the brotherhood guarding the Grail on Golgotha) really doesn't need to be that large, surely ? One company equivalent should be an absolute maximum. I think someone had proposed that it should be about 10, is that right ? Or was that the "elite" section, the only ones to actually be allowed to witness the Grail itself ?

The Grail Wardens (ordinary) could/should be a temporary posting like the Deathwatch, but the elite section (spiritual successors of the original Librarians ?) should possibly be a posting for life. When one of their number dies, they get to pick anyone from the ordinary Grail Wardens.

[Kelborn]

Regarding:are 4 librarians strong enough to close a rift?

Would say so. In Wrath of Iron, the chief librarian was able to close an emerging rift. So four should be ok. Each of them can be their chapters chief librarian.

 

I would like to have my Household (current name Knights of the scarlet blade) participating in the final battle to close the rift. With that, I got a connection between them and the grail. One of its forefathers knight can be the frame of the entrance of the grail temple which is called Ewiger Wächter (=eternal guardian).

[Sir Perfluous]

The chapters that become wardens later are all descended from chapters that took part in the Red Crusade (not necessarily just the Cardinals), as they are of the same blood as those who shut the Rift and swore the blood oath.

Of course, i say shut, but it is really a temporary measure since, as you say, a few Librarians (I'd be tempted to say a bit more than 4) don't necessarily have that kind of power. They do die during the ritual though, which is why we don't know the true nature of the Grail (we know that the Librarians used it as a big part of the ritual and it is that that is keeping the door shut, but not where it came from)

 

I've also been considering that the original Grail Wardens (the brotherhood guarding the Grail on Golgotha) really doesn't need to be that large, surely ? One company equivalent should be an absolute maximum. I think someone had proposed that it should be about 10, is that right ? Or was that the "elite" section, the only ones to actually be allowed to witness the Grail itself ?

The Grail Wardens (ordinary) could/should be a temporary posting like the Deathwatch, but the elite section (spiritual successors of the original Librarians ?) should possibly be a posting for life. When one of their number dies, they get to pick anyone from the ordinary Grail Wardens.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up!

 

As for the Wardens' composition, what you're suggesting sounds perfect. That way, the mystery of the Grail is preserved. I think we had a special emblem that marines who had served in the Wardens were allowed to wear on a tabard once they had served their time and returned to their chapters.

 

 

I'm fime with having my Knights descended from STD's. It would help me pin down a founding, anw would be quite good thematically for my chapter - my lot almost went the same way.

 

Actually, STD, the fluff for my Knights has them destroy one of their homeworlds during an assault by a Chaos warband. If the Knights Resplendant were to besiege Avalon instead of some unnamed bad guys, it would make the whole thing a lot more personal, especially if they were their parent chapter. It woild also give a reason for the Chaos raid - they were seeking to destroy the Wardens.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Sir Perfluous

[Minigiant]

Right, I've got a bit of time on my hands so I've just started out with the timeline a bit.

 

A couple of pages back (13), it had been discussed that the Knights Revenant could descend from the Knights Resplendant. If the latter are now being founded as late as the Cursed Founding, does that change this idea ? It could just as well be the other way round.

 

 

Now I think this comes down to what @Sir Perfluous and @SlaveToDarkness want to do. I am of the opinion that Knights Resplendant being cursed opens up a huge possibility and potential as to why they turn. As you said though it could just be the Knights Resplendant descend from the Knights Revenant.

 

On a side note, I had an idea last night about their 'Curse', they could have Histrionic Personality Disorder, a symptom of this is high suggestibility. Not sure how much weight this may have but it would be unique. High Suggestibility and Contact with Slaanesh during the Red Crusade

 

                                                                //=> Silver Sons

Carmine Cardinals ==> Red Sentinels

                                                                \\=> Crimson Host

 

This is already quite a full family tree when compared to most chapters, so if there are any other chapter relationships, I'd avoid sticking them onto the Carmine Cardinals again.

On the other hand, it's also possible that one of the reasons the Carmine Cardinals were destroyed is because they had lost a lot of their gene-seed stocks through too many successor chapters...

 

I think this is a good point, no more family tree involving the Cardinals. The larger that tree gets the larger IA we will have to make for them

 

So, anyway, are there any relations between the Sanguinary Crusaders, the Archangels, the [Crimson Knights] and both KRs ?

 

 

I like the idea suggested that the KR's are connected

 

Then maybe the Crimson Knights connected with either of the first two. That way we have 1 large family tree, 2 small family trees and 1 with no descendants involved here. Nice balance I think

 

I have to say, Minigiant, you've taken command of this project masterfully.

 

Thank you, I feel as if I am just rambling. I do have a lot of free time at the moment as well as a lot of enthusiasm for this project. Honestly just want to get to the 2nd crusade so my sisters can start kicking some marine ass.

 

While I have experience doing non hobby projects of this scale, never have I done it over a forum. Google documents and Skype are usually my best friends

 

The timeline seems mostly alright, though I have a couple of points. Firstly about the foundings on the timeline - I think we had the other members of the Wardens recruited after the Crusade be successors of the Cardinals. That's what I remember writing on the Knights Rev. IA, anyway. That's not set in stone, though, and could be tweaked.

 

I dont think it matters when they were founded, if anything if they were founded before the red crusade they may have some knowledge of the events. (Help to recruit).

 

Secondly, why do the post-crusade chapters take the oath? We might've already done this and I just lack the ability to read things, but it doesn't seem as though they have any kind of involvement in the story before the Librarians shut the rift that that would lead them to participate in the Warding and Crusading.

 

I think we need to really expand on exactly what the oath was. (Suddenly thinking Van Helsing, family cannot get into heaven until something is achieved). So if the Grail is only a temporary fix to the problem maybe the oath is to solve the real problem and any family tree will suffer if it is not solved. I dunno this bit needs work

 

Also, (I lied when I said a couple) how is it that the Librarians manage to shut the rift? Do four librarians have that sort of power or was it amplified somehow, causing them to burn out and die?

 

So this carries on from my little bit. I should have stated I put it together quickly as a place holder. It can be replaced, developed etc. Better to have something down, that way it doesnt become an impasse. Same comment applies too:

 

Of course, i say shut, but it is really a temporary measure since, as you say, a few Librarians (I'd be tempted to say a bit more than 4) don't necessarily have that kind of power. They do die during the ritual though, which is why we don't know the true nature of the Grail (we know that the Librarians used it as a big part of the ritual and it is that that is keeping the door shut, but not where it came from)

&

Regarding:are 4 librarians strong enough to close a rift?

Would say so. In Wrath of Iron, the chief librarian was able to close an emerging rift. So four should be ok. Each of them can be their chapters chief librarian.

 

 

 

I've also been considering that the original Grail Wardens (the brotherhood guarding the Grail on Golgotha) really doesn't need to be that large, surely ? One company equivalent should be an absolute maximum. I think someone had proposed that it should be about 10, is that right ? Or was that the "elite" section, the only ones to actually be allowed to witness the Grail itself ?

The Grail Wardens (ordinary) could/should be a temporary posting like the Deathwatch, but the elite section (spiritual successors of the original Librarians ?) should possibly be a posting for life. When one of their number dies, they get to pick anyone from the ordinary Grail Wardens.

 

 

 

As soon as you said this I realised I have completely over estimated how large the Wardens need to be. Deathwatch esq posting makes sense. Do think there needs to be an permanent inner council, to track descendants down to join the cause, etc

 

 

 

 

As for the Wardens' composition, what you're suggesting sounds perfect. That way, the mystery of the Grail is preserved. I think we had a special emblem that marines who had served in the Wardens were allowed to wear on a tabard once they had served their time and returned to their chapters.

 

If you can find the emblem that would be brilliant

 

[Sir Perfluous]

 

 

I've also been considering that the original Grail Wardens (the brotherhood guarding the Grail on Golgotha) really doesn't need to be that large, surely ? One company equivalent should be an absolute maximum. I think someone had proposed that it should be about 10, is that right ? Or was that the "elite" section, the only ones to actually be allowed to witness the Grail itself ?

The Grail Wardens (ordinary) could/should be a temporary posting like the Deathwatch, but the elite section (spiritual successors of the original Librarians ?) should possibly be a posting for life. When one of their number dies, they get to pick anyone from the ordinary Grail Wardens.

 

As soon as you said this I realised I have completely over estimated how large the Wardens need to be. Deathwatch esq posting makes sense. Do think there needs to be an permanent inner council, to track descendants down to join the cause, etc

Well this whole affair has a bit of an Arthurian theme to it, so why not have an actual round table council. This could be the "elite" group mentioned earlier - relresentatives from all Warden chapters who head up the whole affair and co-ordinate the defence amd recruitment. Every time one dies, a replacement is chosen from the men of his chapter in the Wardens.

 

 

 

As for the Wardens' composition, what you're suggesting sounds perfect. That way, the mystery of the Grail is preserved. I think we had a special emblem that marines who had served in the Wardens were allowed to wear on a tabard once they had served their time and returned to their chapters.

If you can find the emblem that would be brilliant

I think it was a sort of clenched fist and blood drop over a chalice. We could always come up with anotjer symbol. I'll see if I can find it when I get my hands on a computer - navigating on mobile is a nightmare. Edited May 5, 2016 by Sir Perfluous

[Minigiant]

Concentrating on the Red Crusade, here are the points we need to address. Feel free to add more points

 

• Closed Rift - How? Result?
• Crimson Knights destroyed
• Formation of the Wardens
• Structure?
• Why did they recruit more to the Wardens?
• Knights Revenant, Archangels, and Red Sentinels recruited, how? Were they all recruited the same way?
• Silver Sons founded - How were they recruited?
• Crimson Host founded- How were they recruited? Same way as SS?

[Arkangilos]

So, busy so I can't say much, but I want to throw in, even if the librarians weren't powerful enough to close it by themselves, that is part of what the Grail is for. It was an artifact that needed their combined strengths. Or something like that.

 

Also, the idea was to have a small group from each chapter, so it wouldn't have had a whole company worth. Each chapter might have contributed a squads worth at any one time, maybe a librarian/chaplain/priest. Keep in mind, a squads worth doesn't mean they send a squad at a time, it means they have like, ten guys ever there.

 

But yeah, there would be a smaller permanent cadre.

 

Also, keep in mind, they can all know about the Grail without being aware of truth of the Grail. Even the elite could have no idea what the Grail *really* is.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Arkangilos

[Minigiant]

So I am going to try something brave, I have attempted to create a table that allows us to keep up with everything on any scale. It is on my google drive and anyone with the following link can edit, add, delete etc

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxoqASsB6ObmZWZwQWNzdkhGdTg/view?usp=sharing

 

Now the idea is that we have the event, then we have questions (How they affect this story) and Answers. I think once that is completed and we can think of no more questions and have all of them answered it should just mean writing the thing.

 

Now I have filled in as much as I know, the 2nd Red Crusade (Will refer to it as that until we think of something) is bare. Maybe best to work on everything that has lead up to that event first.

 

I also hope that by doing this, it will mean that people who are unable to visit this site as much can easily catch up etc

 

Is this a good idea? If not I will take it down

[Kelborn]

I will have a look on it in the evning.

As you are all involved with main chapters, their story, etc. I will work of Golgotha itself (besides the Knights)

We described it a bit, or not? Will scroll though the pages just to be surel.

[Minigiant]

Okay so I can see a direction to take so first question to answer. Lets try stay on track

 

The Age of Apostasy, what effects if any should it have on the Red Crusade?

 

Edit: First, I know very little about the Age of Apostasy

 

Secondly, I think when it comes to writing it, writing it in the shadows of the age of apostasy could a good background and context to start it all off

Edited May 6, 2016 by Minigiant

[Sir Perfluous]

I thought we'd decided that the Red Crusade was one of the many that happened in the wake of tbe Age of Apostatsy, at the start of the Age of Redemption, though the rift and the fall of Golgotha would have happened earlier.

[Minigiant]

I thought we'd decided that the Red Crusade was one of the many that happened in the wake of the Age of Apostatsy, at the start of the Age of Redemption, though the rift and the fall of Golgotha would have happened earlier.

Thats what I thought too, I took the date decided and put it on the timeline, to look up the Age of Apostasy and realise they overlapped.

 

I prefer it happening after, it is an easy timeline fix. Unless anyone has any objectons I will do that and then we can work out

 

Why did they go on this crusade? Why that sector, why those chapters? etc

 

Lets try write something out and have something concrete to go with