[HH1.0] Mechanicum Tactica

[Confused Word Bearer]

Is there a point to taking regular Krios tanks over Krios Venators? 4 Ordance S9 AP2 shots versus 1 Heavy S7 AP3 shot seems like a clear contest for just so little points difference.

 

Also, why can't Magos/Archmagos Reductors take Lightning guns/cannons? It would be so wonderful to have an entire army of lightning weaponry, with the Knight Magaera to top it all off.

 

 

Actually, looking at the rules for Rending and Shred, as well as the Lightning Cannon being a blast weapon, I can see reasons to take it. A shame that Magos/Archmagi Reductor can't take Lightning weapons though.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Warsmith Krast

[Charlo]

Is there a point to taking regular Krios tanks over Krios Venators? 4 Ordance S9 AP2 shots versus 1 Heavy S7 AP3 shot seems like a clear contest for just so little points difference.

 

Also, why can't Magos/Archmagos Reductors take Lightning guns/cannons? It would be so wonderful to have an entire army of lightning weaponry, with the Knight Magaera to top it all off.

 

 

Actually, looking at the rules for Rending and Shred, as well as the Lightning Cannon being a blast weapon, I can see reasons to take it. A shame that Magos/Archmagi Reductor can't take Lightning weapons though.

 

Because the Venator is insanely powerful anti-tank weapon and the Lightning cannon is for all intents and purposes, just a much worse battle cannon. Your main target will be marines. Most tables have decent cover so they'll probably get a save. The S7 also doesn't stop any FNP they might have either.

 

Why would you want a lightning gun on a Magos? Keep it on the Thrallax :P A cannon or maybe a mid level one (small blast?) would be cool though.

[Flint13]

Is there a point to taking regular Krios tanks over Krios Venators? 4 Ordance S9 AP2 shots versus 1 Heavy S7 AP3 shot seems like a clear contest for just so little points difference.

Also, why can't Magos/Archmagos Reductors take Lightning guns/cannons? It would be so wonderful to have an entire army of lightning weaponry, with the Knight Magaera to top it all off.

Actually, looking at the rules for Rending and Shred, as well as the Lightning Cannon being a blast weapon, I can see reasons to take it. A shame that Magos/Archmagi Reductor can't take Lightning weapons though.

Yeah, unfortunately as cool an idea as the Lightning cannon is, it just sits at a sort of mediocre middle ground when compared with your other heavy support slots.

 

Krios Venators are possibly the best budget anti-tank in the game (top three at the very least). As well, the Thanatar, while literally twice the price is easily as effective as two stock Krioses when shooting, but is also a S8T8W4 monstrous creature at the same time.

[Terminus]

All the Lightning weapons are disappointing (Thallax, Krios, Magaera) until you hit Ulanor-class.

[Flint13]

I dunno, I actually kinda like the stock lightning guns on Thallax.

 

They seem to do consistently more AV damage than the multimeltas on my destructor Thallax.

[Confused Word Bearer]

Because the Venator is insanely powerful anti-tank weapon and the Lightning cannon is for all intents and purposes, just a much worse battle cannon. Your main target will be marines. Most tables have decent cover so they'll probably get a save. The S7 also doesn't stop any FNP they might have either.

 

Why would you want a lightning gun on a Magos? Keep it on the Thrallax :P A cannon or maybe a mid level one (small blast?) would be cool though.

True enough. I just wish there would be a clear distinction between the two to make them both vuable choices for either player who wants one. A slight buff to the Krios and maybe a slight nerf to the Venator might help? Make the Venator 3 shots instead of 4, and give the Lightning Cannon 2 shots, maybe? Perhaps give the Magaera's Lightning cannon S8 and two shots to make it a more favorable choice in Knights?

 

I'd like a Lightning weapon on a Magos because it sounds really cool to just have a force entirely equipped with Lightning weaponry. Ride the Lightning.

..is a great song by the band Metallica, not the Forge World Metalica.

 

Yeah, unfortunately as cool an idea as the Lightning cannon is, it just sits at a sort of mediocre middle ground when compared with your other heavy support slots.

Krios Venators are possibly the best budget anti-tank in the game (top three at the very least). As well, the Thanatar, while literally twice the price is easily as effective as two stock Krioses when shooting, but is also a S8T8W4 monstrous creature at the same time.

Yeah, I can tell. Krios Venators are really good for what their points bring! Thanatars are also really cool, and they have great models.

 

I think giving the Lightning weapons haywire would be cool, but would you all think it balanced or no?

 

All the Lightning weapons are disappointing (Thallax, Krios, Magaera) until you hit Ulanor-class.

I don't know, Thallax Lightning Guns seem like a pretty good deal. A S7 weapon on some really strong troops doesn't seem disappointing to me. The Lightning cannons are the only really bad ones, and they don't seem that bad, just eclipsed due to the power of all the other avilable options, unfortunately.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Warsmith Krast

[Flint13]

I'll agree the Knight Maegara is far and away the worst knight.

 

Just a stock, single shot lightning cannon and initiative 2 make it really lag.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Flint13

[Terminus]

 

I actually like scooting Skoria up with Vorax, although Vorax are only feasible if you use the FAQ for grenades.

 

Or if you just allocate all the grenade/bomb wounds on to an infantry character in the unit whos in base contact like Scoria or a Praevian since they have no effect unless used against the vehicles, gun emplacements or MCs

 

Not sure how I feel pulling such a mechanic, and not sure if it even would work given that Patris Cybernetica allows the enemy to ignore the Magos to go after the robots.

 

I dunno, I actually kinda like the stock lightning guns on Thallax.

 

They seem to do consistently more AV damage than the multimeltas on my destructor Thallax.

Because multi-melta thallax are a trap.  You want to get super close for that extra penetration die on a single BS4 shot.  The reason you don't see a huge difference is because there is not a gigantic difference against most HP3 targets between S7 rending and S8 AP1, especially when you are re-rolling the penetration.

 

The best gun IMO for the Thallax is the plasma fusil.  With 3 shots it almost doubles the offensive output of the unit, the AP3 plus -2 cover makes it a brutal marine killer, and the range fits well with the Lightning Gun (which are hoping to get a rend to get that artificer sgt out of the way).  So you can move to within 18" of an infantry target, shoot them, and then scoot back with jump packs and they cannot get you in rapid fire or assault range even if their dice are all boxcars. S6 with re-rolls to penetrate actually works as well as a multi-melta against transports and other light AV targets.  Running the statistics results in 0.65 glances vs. an AV12 target for the fusil, and the multi-melta does 0.495 glances/pens. Sure the AP1 penetration damage roll would be better against heavier targets, but if you're just trying to glance stuff to death, the Fusil is enough for the Rhinos and the Predators and side armor of dreadnoughts, etc.

 

This change came about when I dropped all the meltabombs from my Thallax due to the grenade FAQ and started playing them more like outboxers than the infighters everyone wants to field them as.

 

I can take care of heavy tanks with haywire or Krios Venators, so I don't think this is the Thallax niche anymore.  As one of my few (only?) mobile scoring options, I want them focusing on taking care of the opponent's scoring options.

[Charlo]

Yeah, I like the stock Thrallax too. Especially the Ragey-Chainblade variety. Just lightning Gun artillery and lighter units to death.

[Terminus]

^ That's the other way to go, IMO, Ferrox and all chainblades.  They have victim melee stats so wouldn't want to go against anyone who fights back, but that is a lot of S7 rending attacks.

[Charlo]

While probably not worth wasting a Heavy support slot on (though... Fluffy with Reductor...) the Anti-Air Thrallax could be quite hilarious. Lightning guns would murder air.

[Terminus]

18" range and have to stand still?

[Charlo]

Been a while since I read the rules on them.

 

That will be the reason no one speaks of them :(

[Flint13]

That's a good bunch of points on plasma-fusils.

 

They're much cheaper than photon thrusters too. I essentially just take that Destructor Thallax posse to give my Ordinator Magos tank hunter.

[Terminus]

A small unit with a photon thruster is a good combo for the Ordinator Magos (who should also have a photon thruster).  I would rather hedge my bets on getting that re-rollable 6 on either of the two thruster shots rather than risk getting close to shoot a multi-melta.  Having a shooty HQ in the mix is all the more reason to stay away from melee!

[Confused Word Bearer]

While probably not worth wasting a Heavy support slot on (though... Fluffy with Reductor...) the Anti-Air Thrallax could be quite hilarious. Lightning guns would murder air.

I suppose for a quick Reductor army you could just buy a tech-priest or similar model to use as a magos, and then buy 4 three-man units of Thallax, therefore having two troops and two heavy support options.

 

Also, I just realized that Ordo Reductor doesn't have to use the matrix of ruin FOC.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

I actually like scooting Skoria up with Vorax, although Vorax are only feasible if you use the FAQ for grenades.

 

Or if you just allocate all the grenade/bomb wounds on to an infantry character in the unit whos in base contact like Scoria or a Praevian since they have no effect unless used against the vehicles, gun emplacements or MCs

 

Not sure how I feel pulling such a mechanic, and not sure if it even would work given that Patris Cybernetica allows the enemy to ignore the Magos to go after the robots. 

 

Not going to lie, the mechanic is pretty grief heavy. However, it is avoidable in that the enemy just has to use normal attacks with whomever is in base to base with the infantry model; as a gotcha moment its hard to top.

 

As for Patris, intent could be argued, but it pretty explicitly says for shooting (at least on Scoria's). Praevians don't have any clause though, so go wild with vorax

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Grenade nerf doesn't particularly change the picture much for Vorax IMO. They're worse than the other two options, and we really need the other two options. Arlatax are our melee sweepers to deal with annoying infantry blobs and Fast tanks that just drive away from Castellax. Vultarax are our anti-Spartan and anti-Flyer tech, plus once all the enemy AV and Flyers are dead they help mop up remnants trying to scrape wins with objective grabs. Also good for killing 5-man special/heavy weapon squads that a Thanatar is wasted on. 

 

Thallax are just so bad I can't justify them. I have 18 of them and they always make me weep when writing lists. I did some playtesting the other day and even Ferrox heavy chainblade squads are incredibly medicore. WS3 I2 is awful, and the need to fish for Rends means a lot of the 24 attacks go to waste (half miss, and then like 2 actually Rend, rest are just armour saves or bouncing off enemy high AV). That's also assuming the dream scenario where you get into melee with a unit that only moves 6+3D6" a turn at best. 

 

After doing some Cybernetica testing I'm thinking Tech-Thralls are a necessary evil. The missions where you score objectives Turn 1 and rack up points by holding them every turn are auto-loss otherwise. I'm still annoyed 'Machine Creature' got introduced. Combined with the price increases, Cybernetica is basically always under the hammer to table wipe or at least have to go for secondary every game. Especially now Marksman Vets can delete entire maniples at will with combi-plasma out of a drop pod or Outflanking Rhino, and still score :^) . 

[Terminus]

^ you will find a single Arlatax surprisingly inept at sweeping units. Vorax are brutal at range and in melee, combination of both makes them excellent. Vultarax are a completely different beast.

 

Your hatred of Thallax is well-documented but doesn't mesh with my experiences.

[Flint13]

Arlatax are almost in the same boat as Thallax. They are limited to WS4, which means half of their attacks just disappear when they fight marines and youre rarely sweeping anything with just a couple casualties. You're killing a couple a turn at best and are unable to challenge out the powerfists or axes that will be knocking wounds off of you. I've actually been switching out my Arlatax posse for more Ursarax the more I play with them. Recent games I've been using the Homonculex and that's it.

 

Ive heard this opinion on Thallax before and I'm not terribly sure where it comes from. Are you bouncing small units of them off big marine units? Because I've had great experiences with Ferroxi, piling into elite units (especially legion Terminators), taking a single models worth of wounds, then killing off plenty to win the combat. The single bad experience I've had with them are against a regular imperial fist player I game with, and that's just because he loves his medusas and Typhon. I can't overstate how awesome it is to take five powerfist wounds in the face and only lose a single model.

 

What kinds of marksman vets have you been playing? Can I get some of those loaded dice at least? Combi-vets are not wiping maniples of anything, much less Castellax. Math-wise, even with a full squad with combi-plasma, you're doing 5 or 6 wounds. You'd also be paying 100pts for combi weapons and for a dreadclaw (save orbital assaults or Ravens).

 

But you know how to fix droppod anything hella quick for a Mech player? Pay 15pts for a Cyber Ocularis, park his dinky ass right next to your Castellax posse or a Thanatar and delete whatever poor bastard squad that tries to scuff your paintwork with an alpha strike.

[Terminus]

Cyber Occularis make deep striking within 18" of Mechanicum a death sentence. I like to park one by my Medusa battery.

[Flint13]

"Hey Astartes, wanna see what it would look like if augury scanners actually worked?" :lol:

[SydonianDragoon404]

I'm with Flint13 on the Ursarax, I thought they were going to be a fluff unit for fun games but damn do they tear stuff up. Your opponent has to focus them or else your S10 power fists will kill Land Raiders/Spartans. I haven't fielded an Arlatax yet, but I am sold on the Ursarax. Planning on upgrading to a 5 man squad from 3. 2 power fists and 3 claws. 

Edited November 3, 2016 by SydonianDragoon404

[Terminus]

I am not feeling the Ursarax at all.

S10 power fists are cute and all... but I can have a Destructor posse with a rad grenade Magos for that... or just Reductor Medusas to do it from a distance.  If armor is the problem, we have way better and more immediate answers for that as well.  Punching Spartans to death doesn't help much since by turn 2 or 3 that you are doing so, it has already performed its primary goal of delivering a nasty melee unit into your lines.

 

As a melee unit fighting other infantry, they seem to be lacking the key elements that you need to succeed.  Stubborn is nice, but Ld8 still means a 28% chance of bolting. Initiative 2 means that if you do bolt, you will very likely be run down.  On the other hand, if you do win a combat, you can't sweep the enemy in return, and prolonged battles aren't a great thing either since you're paying 60 points per model with 3 base attacks at WS4.

[MorgothNL]

I'm with Flint13 on the Ursarax, I thought they were going to be a fluff unit for fun games but damn do they tear stuff up. Your opponent has to focus them or else your S10 power fists will kill Land Raiders/Spartans. I haven't fielded an Arlatax yet, but I am sold on the Ursarax. Planning on upgrading to a 5 man squad from 3. 2 power fists and 3 claws. 

Does anyone else have any experience with the Arlatax, Ursarax and Vorax? I'm looking to add 2 of these units in the army I'm about to buy. 1 Fast Attack is taken by the Vultarax so I've got 2 slots left for some Close Combat units (the rest of the army is shooty of course).

 

All the models are cool, I'm running Cyrbernetica which makes the Cortex units viable and maybe more appropriate than the Ursarax. But if the Vorax are really bad, I could go for the others. Vorax don't seem the best CC choice but they do seem to be the more flexible choice because of their shooting output and the models are cool.

I'm not looking to get the best of the best, but I do want something that won't regret me buying those specific models.

 

 

Any advise on which units to add? I've got about 580pts to spend on those 2 slots. Right now I'm running 3 Vorax with frag and 2 Arlatax with Arc Scourge, but haven't bought the models nor played a proxy game.. so I've no idea how they do.

Edited November 3, 2016 by MorgothNL