The Beast Arises

[A D-B]

We all too often forget the fast generation rotation in the Imperium. It is a harsh place and the majority of its populace rarely make it for a long life. Death catches many of them younger than we usually assume. So even in a century or two all things are hearsay to the populace. 

 

Oh, absolutely. But I got the impression was that this wasn't the populace at large, it was the absolute upper-level hierarchs of the Imperium. The populace at large forgetting about it, let alone having it mind-wiped from them or being culled so there's no one alive to remember it, well, that goes without saying.

[HeritorA]

Marshal Rohr

'the Imperium may not ever hear of the 1st BC because the BL wipes out the Templars' - several crusade fleets of Black Templars rolling to Terra at the moment totally disagree with you.

 

As DarkChaplain  said 'I think you are downplaying what we actually know about the 1st Black Crusade. There are various sources talking about it, including the Black Legion supplement, which I believe was even written by AD-B in some capacity.

World after world burned and it seemed unstoppable, and Cadia played a role, even though it wasn't fortified yet. Multiple IF companies were involved, too.'

 

- all that was totally forgotten. And I really wonna see an explanation. Because if it was Inquisition - how about the Space Marines Chapters? Especially, again - The Black  fething Templars?

[HeritorA]

Hello A D-B ! Welcome to our lovely thread! Sad, that you don't have a book in TBA serie But that's hopefully will give you time (yeah - that thing you never had ) to finish the second Black Legion book

[Sete]

I... um... uh...

 

Hang on, on. Phone replying. Not great at typing neatly.

 

 

 

My assumption was that it seemed that the Imperium didnt had a threat for a very long time. I consider a Black Crusade a thing of a huge magnitude to be so easily forgotten. Especially the first one.

It just feels weird. I don't consider 700 years to be enough time for the Imperium be so Lax.

It's a good assumption. I agree with you, natch. (I find I often do, Sete. No shock there.)

 

But it also raises a cool angle, considering why it might be forgotten or not mentioned, or whatever else. I'm just spitballing, but I'll probably end up musing over it before I write the First Black Crusade this year. Obviously the Imperium at large will be kept in the dark about it, but you never know.

 

Yeah actually that brings up some questions.Maybe we will have some answers to it later on. I have no complains on how the High Lords are being portrayed,the the curruption, the power plays, all of it, its interesting. In my opinion it shows quite well human nature in every level. On how so many can be sacrificed without a second tought just for power.

But in a galactic setting a Black Crusade that that was quickly countered and pushed back might have not seem that threatening by the High Lords in the Segmentum Solar.

They cleary dont care on how many may die just because they want a better room in the Imperial Palace.

Yeah especially if they didn't have bragging rights, I can see those events downplayed.

[caladancid]

One interesting explanation could come from some of the attitude of humans towards SMs (an example being in Pharos where the humans started being appalled at the Legions). The disregard shown for the IFs by the High Lords could just be symptomatic of a ruling class that sees SMs as a lesser class of citizen, possibly because they hold them at fault for the Heresy.

 

If that is the case, and the first Black Crusade was mostly handled by SMs I could definitely see the rest of the Imperium not caring/seeing it as just another extension of the Heresy, regardless of how many heavy hitters died.

[Lord Tharand]

I think people are overreacting to the lack of knowledge of the first Black Crusade. Already in these three books the Imperium has made efforts to hide the fact that there is a massive Ork invasion taking place. Why would it shock anyone to think that the power brokers back in the day of the black crusade didn't just cover it all up once Abaddon had been put back in his box? The current power brokers, even with all their levels of access, probably can't A) locate the information about the first black crusade among the trillions of files in the Administratum or those records were simply destroyed. Not only that but you have many different divisions/organizations competing and actively working against one another. Insulation and ignorance is how the Imperium protects itself.

[Sete]

The inquisition is making efforts to hide it in a huge power play from my understanding. But even so self serving people like their skin intact, especially at the expense of others. So im blaming the Inquisition on this.

[klisof]

One thing I have been thinking about the first black crusade, to the Imperium at the time it was not the first. It was just THE black crusade.

In my opinion it's possible the Imperium was unaware of how many of the traitor legions remained in the eye, and what capacity they had to rebuild their ranks. I think it's plausible they thought the first black crusade was the last hurrah of the traitors, a final death or glory attack big and powerful enough to take out Dorn and Sigismund but spending the last significant forces the traitors have.

This plays into the conceit of the high lords they have won and have no threats left on the galactic stage.

The Imperium then thinks there are only minor raiding parties left of the traitors to be moped up as and when they show themselves. The propaganda machine lets everyone know the traitors are gone for good after the black crusade so they are forgotten as ancient history by the time of the beast arises. At least until the second black crusade teaches them the error in underestimating the traitors:)

[TDF]

We might not think 700 years sounds like a long time for the Imperium, but that's thinking both from an out-of-universe perspective where dates are just numbers and you can skip from 781.M31 to 544.M32 in the blink of an eye and it's thinking from an M41 perspective where seven centuries is not that significant compared to the ten millennia plus that the Imperium has existed.

 

For the in-universe characters in TBA the First Black Crusade is completely out of living memory at least several times over (except in the most extreme cases). You also have to look at the historical picture they see. To them the Imperium is just over 1500 years old in its current form. The Black Crusade represents the halfway point in the Imperium's history. The Lexicanum references the Black Legion supplement as saying it attacked thousands of worlds, which is devastating to that part of Segmentum Obscurus (although still only 0.1% of the Imperium), but so far it is the only significant action by the Traitor Legions since the Heresy. It took 700 years for the forces of Chaos to do anything significant and then they haven't done anything since? They must have overextended themselves in one last desperate act of vengeance and then we destroyed them. Any skirmishes on the periphery are just the feeble remains of the once great legions and nothing for the main body of the Imperium to worry about.

[veterannoob]

Since this is pertaining to TBA...

 

http://traffic.libsyn.com/combatphase/Ep_134_The_Beast_Arises_2-_PredatorPrey.mp3

 

We are back with part two of the twelve-book series The Beast Arises, by Rob Sanders. We talk news, hobby and games played. Kenny shouts out to Holy Wars AoS tourney now internationally acclaimed:) Then Kenny is pleased to be coming home from a local Horus Heresy 30K apocalypse game.

 

We then go into book 2: Predator/Prey focusing on places as a theme to analyze the book. And we are excited for the next 10 books (hopefully we will have the authors on for the rest of the books).

 

Enjo

[Marshal Rohr]

Marshal Rohr

'the Imperium may not ever hear of the 1st BC because the BL wipes out the Templars' - several crusade fleets of Black Templars rolling to Terra at the moment totally disagree with you.

 

As DarkChaplain said 'I think you are downplaying what we actually know about the 1st Black Crusade. There are various sources talking about it, including the Black Legion supplement, which I believe was even written by AD-B in some capacity.

World after world burned and it seemed unstoppable, and Cadia played a role, even though it wasn't fortified yet. Multiple IF companies were involved, too.'

 

- all that was totally forgotten. And I really wonna see an explanation. Because if it was Inquisition - how about the Space Marines Chapters? Especially, again - The Black fething Templars?

Did you see my post where he corrected me and I acknowledged I was wrong?

[Tenebris]

Granted that the Black Crusade happened, but from what I read it happened 700 years ago from the time of the events in Beast. This is an awful lot of years. Think what we as a species, the humanity in M2 have forgotten in 700 years. Do we really know how threatening was the Black Plague, how mighty were the Crusades, how it felt when the continent of the Americas was discovered? Of course not. We assume, we collate from the many historical evidences. We try to piece up the truth but we will never know the actual truth about those events. And by Imperial standards we are indeed a very much learned generation of humans in M2. 

 

Said that it is that hard to assume that a cataclysmic event such as the Black Crusade was gradually diminished in importance and echo? Sure. The world was shocked by the two World Wars but you do not see countries building fortresses between Germany and France or Russia on that account. But it was a tragic, desperately tragic, and quite recent event in our history. 

 

On the account of the complacent leaders. Even nowadays we have leaders who do not even know the capital city of the countries they rule, but they are still in positions of power and vie for influence. The Imperium is an incredibly vast dimension to contemplate and what to us rightfully is a pivotal event in the setting, to the lofty courts of Terra and its gilded salons and high towers it is for all intents and purposes ancient history. 

 

It is not just the masses to be intently ignorant about all events but the ignorance in the higher ranks is quite logical too if you think the scale and the timeline of the setting. What need has a High Lord to know the intricacies of a Black Crusade if it happened, to his very mortal mind, eons ago. Whole centuries ago before the said lord was born. I quite think that the Lord Admiral did learn of it in the academy but he never payed much heed to the lessons of the past. Why should he. His mind, as the mind of many other High Lords, is on his position, influence and power. His mind is set to achieve, to become someone. What need has he for notions of ancient history when it is more important to know which current Merchant Lord and Navigator House helps you in your play for power and who your political adversaries are. 

 

We humans can be so very blind when we set our mind to a single task. We remember what is useful for us and us alone. 

[DarkChaplain]

It doesn't seem that long considering Space Marine lifespans, especially so close to the Horus Heresy before the big geneseed degradation stuff that pops up every so often. You'd definitely see the Imperial Fists hold a grudge over it, especially since they spent so much time at home on Terra fortifying, so the First Black Crusade was likely their last big engagement with warfare away from there.

 

It seems somewhat out of character and generally odd for a grand chapter like the Fists to forget about past glories and shame. Its not like they forgot the Iron Cage incident and what not even way later than that.

The only excuse for the original Fists I could see is that the ones we saw in I Am Slaughter are dumb and ignorant, and those that aren't die off-page anyway.

[Vesper]

The First Black Crusade was probably the first big engagement of the Grey Knights. When the High Lords saw the scale of the Chaos threat, they probably mind scrubbed everyone who heard a thing about it. Or killed them.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

They might even have called it a Black Crusade. That name might have been applied later, when the Imperium realises that Abaddon is constant.

 

To them, it was just a traitor attack. They knew they weren't all gone. It's a big threat but not enough to threaten Terra.

 

They probably considered it far out skirmish, despite Dorn losing. Actually if anything I imagine the High Lords were thrilled, the last Primarch gone meant they could go all corrupt and not worry about him punching their heads off.

[Vesper]

Dorn died after the Black Crusade. Unlike Sigismund.

Far off skirmish that forces them to raise new Chapters and fortify a whole system to be as formidable as the Sol system. Indeed, they appear to feel safe.

[Marshal Rohr]

It doesn't seem that long considering Space Marine lifespans, especially so close to the Horus Heresy before the big geneseed degradation stuff that pops up every so often. You'd definitely see the Imperial Fists hold a grudge over it, especially since they spent so much time at home on Terra fortifying, so the First Black Crusade was likely their last big engagement with warfare away from there.

 

It seems somewhat out of character and generally odd for a grand chapter like the Fists to forget about past glories and shame. Its not like they forgot the Iron Cage incident and what not even way later than that.

The only excuse for the original Fists I could see is that the ones we saw in I Am Slaughter are dumb and ignorant, and those that aren't die off-page anyway.

 

 

Iirc, the Fists didn't leave Terra with more than a company sized element for a millennia after the Siege. But I'm not sure on that, and as we've discovered this week my current fluff-Kung-fu is weak :D. Also, IIRC, there was once something mentioned about space marines not being allowed on Terra after the Heresy, and only the Fists were given the exemption because of the Dorn and Guilliman making amends. It might've been at a BL event or AMA with an author, but I really can't remember.

 

 

They might even have called it a Black Crusade. That name might have been applied later, when the Imperium realises that Abaddon is constant.

To them, it was just a traitor attack. They knew they weren't all gone. It's a big threat but not enough to threaten Terra.

They probably considered it far out skirmish, despite Dorn losing. Actually if anything I imagine the High Lords were thrilled, the last Primarch gone meant they could go all corrupt and not worry about him punching their heads off.

  

 

The man said it far more articulately than I did, but originally this was what I was trying to say as a possible explanation. FFG had a blurb about Dorn being the last living Primarch and watching the Imperium embrace the Lectio Divinitatus, struggling with the veneration of the Primarchs by mortal and space marine alike. It also had a tasty insinuation Dorn might've enjoyed the veneration.

 

 

Dorn died after the Black Crusade. Unlike Sigismund.

Far off skirmish that forces them to raise new Chapters and fortify a whole system to be as formidable as the Sol system. Indeed, they appear to feel safe.

You know, Sigismund was my favorite hero in science fiction until the Keeler and god worship aspect was added (still love John French though, can't get enough of his work). He was right up there with Juan Rico, which isn't really fair since Starship Troopers is a political essay hiding behind power armor. I feel like the best way to say goodbye is for him to die doing what he was always known for, believing the Imperium was the best hope for mankind and personally challenging anyone who threatened that. That way my the last thing I ever care to read about him will be him being trying to shine light into the all consuming darkness.

[Chapter Master Valrak]

DORN LIVES. Don't make me post my Meme...too late...

 

http://i.imgur.com/rX1HH6D.png

 

Anyway :P

I LOVE this series so far, maybe because I'm a Dornian fan boy but loved every second of it, I bought the audio series and I told myself I would listen to each instalment over a monthly period, within two days I've finished and wanting more, it's my new HH but better :O

[Jim Shady]

I've read Book 1 and 2, currently reading Book 3. (It's slightly less fleshed out than Dan and Rob's outings put I am enjoying it.)

 

My question is thus.

 

Who is behind this?

 

We know The Beast is doing the Orky thing and just causing mayhem, giving dem 'oomies a gud smashin' but have we enough to understand why the Orks are doing this? Fabius been doing his very crazy scientist thing and created something far in excess of what he has done before? Has this one Ork "found" something that's boosted his intellect beyond the normality of what Orks are perceived to have? Or is it the usual twirly moustache Chaos deal with some Daemon Prince pulling the strings ie Bel'akor?

 

The thing that got me was the conversation Price and Kulik had before Lansung done his fleet wide broadcast before they attacked the Ork moon. The Orks had quite a few Imperial vessels and they mentioned that due to the amount of them, how did no one go, 'Wait a minute. We've lost x amount of ships in this amount of time so where have they all gone....' kinda shiz. It's astounding how the HLoT have got so lax that they were so ignorant and blind until it was too late.

 

Wherever this is going, the pay off better be good.

 

I'm also surprised we haven't seen some short stories about the other races being caught up in this ie the Eldar sticking their noses in to save their own skin.

[DarkChaplain]

The final few books went up on Amazon in the meantime. Book 12 (The Beheading by Guy Haley) has a blurb, even:

 

 

 

 

Subterfuge and assassination bring this thrilling series to an end.

Despite the odds, the Imperium has triumphed. The orks have been defeated and the Great Beast is no more. Across the length and breadth of the galaxy, humankind celebrates its salvation, and relishes the prospect of a return of peace. But the war against the orks has riven the political bedrock of the Imperium, exposing its rotten core. One man, one powerful man, decides he has the solution, and launches a campaign of destruction so terrible that thousands of years later his actions will still be viewed with horror. And all the while, the true enemy watches and waits in the starless depths of space; an eternal evil that desires only to devour the souls of every living human soul in the galaxy.

 

 

[BNG1991]

The final few books went up on Amazon in the meantime. Book 12 (The Beheading by Guy Haley) has a blurb, even:

 

 

 

 

Subterfuge and assassination bring this thrilling series to an end.

 

Despite the odds, the Imperium has triumphed. The orks have been defeated and the Great Beast is no more. Across the length and breadth of the galaxy, humankind celebrates its salvation, and relishes the prospect of a return of peace. But the war against the orks has riven the political bedrock of the Imperium, exposing its rotten core. One man, one powerful man, decides he has the solution, and launches a campaign of destruction so terrible that thousands of years later his actions will still be viewed with horror. And all the while, the true enemy watches and waits in the starless depths of space; an eternal evil that desires only to devour the souls of every living human soul in the galaxy.

 

 

Huh, doesn't sounds like B4 at the end. I wonder who could that be?

[Mellow]

Maybe Vangoritch (sp?) has been corrupted by Chaos and that's why he kills all the other HLoT

[Felix Antipodes]

I was guessing at an early version of Orkimedes being behind the tech but that wouldn't have explained their better battle tactics. The above quote also points to a different direction. Mysteries on mysteries...love this series and how it has gone so far.

[BNG1991]

Malal? C'Tan? Or something else?

[b1soul]

We might not think 700 years sounds like a long time for the Imperium, but that's thinking both from an out-of-universe perspective where dates are just numbers and you can skip from 781.M31 to 544.M32 in the blink of an eye and it's thinking from an M41 perspective where seven centuries is not that significant compared to the ten millennia plus that the Imperium has existed.For the in-universe characters in TBA the First Black Crusade is completely out of living memory at least several times over (except in the most extreme cases).

Wealthy Imperials like those who command amd rule the Imperium often live for centuries with the help of juvenat treatment and cybernetics and possibly other life extension techniques

 

...and would adeptus astartes forget the 1st Black Crusade in such short order? How about the custodes captain general who is a High Lord?

 

700 years really isn't that long of a time...even in-universe