The Beast Arises

[b1soul]

I'm not sure that there was ever a time in Imperial history when Terra was only lightly defended.

 

I mean...it's only been several centuries since the shock of the Traitor Legions' return and the 1st Black Crusade. Why would Sol be lightly defended?

 

It doesn't make sense to me.

 

...and no, five to seven hundred years is not a long time for the IoM, especially from the perspective of the High Lords, who have access to the best life-extending juvenat treatment and one of whom is the Custodes Captain-General

[Marshal Rohr]

700 years may be a drop in the bucket to the Imperium (debatable since it is almost 7% of its existence) but it's a long time to humans even if they love to be 130 or whatever the limit is. It's the difference between today and the Byzantine Empire existing. In fact, 700 years ago was over a hundred years BEFORE The Byzantine empire collapsed.

[Jareddm]

I'm not sure that there was ever a time in Imperial history when Terra was only lightly defended.

 

I mean...it's only been several centuries since the shock of the Traitor Legions' return and the 1st Black Crusade. Why would Sol be lightly defended?

 

It doesn't make sense to me.

 

...and no, five to seven hundred years is not a long time for the IoM, especially from the perspective of the High Lords, who have access to the best life-extending juvenat treatment and one of whom is the Custodes Captain-General

The Custodes Captain is a High Lord in M41. He is not a High Lord in M32. Not to mention that the High Lords have made it abundantly clear that anything happening outside of Segmentum Solar, at this time, is barely their concern, let alone what happened 500 years earlier. I'm sure over in the Cadian sector, they've not forgotten but at the rate that information travels, and more importantly, is maintained over a long period, makes it abundantly clear just how easy it is for history to be forgotten.

[b1soul]

700 years may be a drop in the bucket to the Imperium (debatable since it is almost 7% of its existence) but it's a long time to humans even if they love to be 130 or whatever the limit is. It's the difference between today and the Byzantine Empire existing. In fact, 700 years ago was over a hundred years BEFORE The Byzantine empire collapsed.

You're ignoring the political and institutional continuity of the Imperium.

 

Heck...we still remember Byzantine battles such as the fall of Constantinople to the Turks.

 

I think High Lords live longer than 130 years...that's not a very long life-span for an Imperial elite-of-the-elite

[b1soul]

 

I'm not sure that there was ever a time in Imperial history when Terra was only lightly defended.

I mean...it's only been several centuries since the shock of the Traitor Legions' return and the 1st Black Crusade. Why would Sol be lightly defended?

It doesn't make sense to me.

...and no, five to seven hundred years is not a long time for the IoM, especially from the perspective of the High Lords, who have access to the best life-extending juvenat treatment and one of whom is the Custodes Captain-General

The Custodes Captain is a High Lord in M41. He is not a High Lord in M32. Not to mention that the High Lords have made it abundantly clear that anything happening outside of Segmentum Solar, at this time, is barely their concern, let alone what happened 500 years earlier.

Where does it say the Custodes general is not a High Lord in M32?

 

Regardless, High Lords live a very long time and the Imperium enjoys institutional and political continuity. What happened 500 years ago - like something as momentuous as the 1st Black Crusade - should not be easily forgotten.

 

If the High Lords are just incredibly petty and stupid, then I find that rather lazy writing as well.

[Seneschal]

Assuming that I have finished just The Emperor Expects so I still have some reading to do, I think that the whole "undefended Terra" and "uncaring Astartes" was explained in the beginning of the series. The Imperium was victorious, the Sol sector and the Segmentum Solar were thoroughly pacified and the majority of the astartes has moved on, onto the outer reaches of the Imperium where the xenos and traitor presence was sill felt and thus required their might, leaving Terra in the safe custodianship of the Imperial Fists and the likes. 

 

Terra is not undefended, it was defended by the Imperial Fists and by the Lucifer Blacks and a whole host of other armies, militias, guilds... it is just that the Imperial Fists are now dead and the Orks have cunningly bypassed the major outer defenses and fortifications in the Sol system via their "warp magics or strange xeno technology", their Attack Moon just appeared.

 

And I think that the astartes are calm about it, at least in the conclave part of The Emperor Expects, because one they are on the very other part of the galaxy, weeks or even months away from Terra (I remember the IF travelling there three weeks and it was a risky run), second, the two chapters and the BT are all badly mauled, at least those we have read of, and third, I think that the astartes are probably the only ones (BT excluded) who, by this timeline, have realized if not contemplated that they have already failed in the Siege of Terra and the Emperor is now a mere shadow of himself. 

 

Why the High Lords politic among themselves? Because this is what you do in politics and everything else be damned, the only important thing is the power, influence and magnitude of control that their own faction deserves, demands and commands. 

 

I find it all very simple and very human. 

 

And this is why I am more and more interested in the series and I am more and more taken to play in this setting or in the following nine thousand years, than in the overly simplistic M41 timeline where all knots got into the comb and all is said and done. 

[Felix Antipodes]

To be fair none of the authors so far have made out the High Lords are stupid. Venal, vain, ambitious and uncaring of most things outside their own political circus. But not dumb as such. And nobody took the Orks seriously at any level. All aggression and no guile - until they weren't - and then it was too late.

 

The current High Lord members are listed in the first book. The Custodes Captain is not currently one of the inner circle. Probably slipped to the large outer council much likeVangorich had. I don't recall an Astartes High Lord either for that matter (memory lapse?). Maybe the transhumans started stacking the HL again after this bunfight got sorted?

[Augustus]

Aren't there Grey Knights and Inquisitors running around? Wouldn't they want to make sure? Isn't this a galaxy where the Eldar can just pop in out of nowhere?

 

I forgot, can you fire on a ship while in the warp? Gav's story (the Lion) seems to imply that you can't track a ship in the warp. What's to stop a Fleet from just setting a B line course to Terra? 

 

Anyway, Terra should be the most heavily defended planet in the Galaxy bar none. 

[Petitioner's City]

I think with any book in a licensed world there is a tension between setting aside one's preconceptions, and not doing so. If we don't leave room for creative decisions and changing the world, if say 'x must always be the case', we unfortunately limit possibilities. With 40K, it's more interesting to let things change to an extent, as the licensed material of a game involving player's own creative narrations within a very large sandbox, across a vast expanse of fictional time and space, it's foolish to decree things should always be constant - it's conservative. More so, it's dreary and reflects the opposite intentions of the hobby, which are about expanding a setting, not defining it. Let these new developments occur, rather than poopoo them or grumble. 

 

More so, unlike other 'expanded universes', there is no editorial fiat that things fit together. One interpretation is not beholden to another. Where it exists, yay; but equally let people in text just as they do with plastic, resin, paint and putty, make wildly divergent worlds too. 

[Conn Eremon]

Maybe the transhumans started stacking the HL again after this bunfight got sorted?

The Codexes have been saying this for some time, but I'll tuck it into a spoiler tag in case anyone is reading the series without this prior knowledge.

 

 

The Beheading happens, immediately after the Beast is dealt with. The Grand Master of the Assassinorum, for reasons unknown, assassinates the entire High Lord council (by which I take to mean the actual High Lords, and not the lesser lords that follow around like the Grand Master of the Assassinorum had become). A Space Marine taskforce, which included the Imperial Fists!, is sent into the Assassinorum temple. Only one survived to reach the Grand Master, and the Grand Master is killed.

 

Here is where it gets interesting! The Ultramarines show up, alongside other (I want to say 50) Chapters, walk into the Senatorum and lock the doors.

 

When the doors are opened once more, the new High Lords have been selected and the anarchy ends.

 

Now, to bring it back to your question, we don't necessarily know if this is when the Custodes or the Astartes got their revolving spot among the High Lords. But this seems like the most obvious point in time for them to stack the council, as you put it.

 

[b1soul]

I think with any book in a licensed world there is a tension between setting aside one's preconceptions, and not doing so.

 

I feel like this is a strawman

 

The issue isn't "being able to set aside one's preconceptions"...the issue is being presented with a plausible situation. By all means, expand the fluff...but do so intelligently

 

Terra being lightly defended only a few centuries after the Imperium was shocked to its core by the 1st Black Crusade...that is not very plausible in my humble opinion.

 

"Well...it's been a few hundred years...and people forget things"

 

That is not a very convincing reason. In fact, we know that the IoM has NOT forgotten the 1st Black Crusade.

 

It's more like..."Well, that was a few centuries ago. Nowadays Terra could never be seriously threatened, no point in maintaining top-notch defenses"

[Conn Eremon]

People have given you reasons why it is plausible to them. Why don't you give reasons why it isn't to you?

 

If your response is "I already have," then I think they won this argument. Their explanations for why seem more valid to the series and the overall setting than what I have seen said in opposition, up to this point.

[Grand Master Laertes]

 

What's to stop a Fleet from just setting a B line course to Terra? 

 

 

The fact that you cannot exit from the warp werever you like. You need a "Mandeville point", which is usually on the outskirts of a star system. So, every fleet will always need to get through entire AUs (Astronomical Units) of space filled with minefields, defence stations and so on.

 

The Ork attack moon completely avoided them. For some reason, it did not need a Mandeville Point, but could appear wherever it wished. It simply appeared in orbit around Terra, avoiding every static defense system of the Sol system (we already know where the fleet was).

 

In the real world, it would be like assaulting a fortress by teleporting directly within its walls. Maybe it is the most defended fortress in the galaxy, but no defence system is useful, if you can simply avoid it.

[Spinsanity]

I don't mind the history buffs mentioning that some do remember millenia old battles, but to infer that the imperium would give importance to a battle that occured so long ago is idiculous.

 

We had two world wars in the last century and yet look at the current state of world politics and consider how tense some fronts are. There are whole chunks of humanity who don't even know the world wars ever occured, and even some who, while they know they occured, minimize their importance and impact. Considering how politicians today dismiss as inconsequential anything that doesn't align with their agenda, I expect the Imperium's leaders would do just as much, they'd just do it on a much, much larger scale.

 

In addition, remember that this is the Imperium of old, when the Inquisition's job was (according to old lore) to suppress *any* and *all* knowledge of the forces of Chaos/Traitor marines... They used to (in the fluff, don't know timeline-wise) mind-wipe space marines and wipe populations off the face of hive worlds when daemonic invasions occured, so the chance the Black Crusade is stil a major wound is, imo, very slim.

 

I'm pretty sure the Lord Admiral is of the belief that "If we display too much muscle around Terra the population here will feel threatened and see the fleets as weak. As long as Terra (apparently) needs no defense, I'll be seen as a strong leader." Very anti-Orwellian, but whatever...

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

So I've been hearing the Iron Warriors got nearly wiped out by the Beast. Do we have any details?

[Grand Master Laertes]

So I've been hearing the Iron Warriors got nearly wiped out by the Beast. Do we have any details?

Just a Great company got almost wiped out. Half by the Orks, the other half by a Black Templars crusade.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

 

 

I'm not sure that there was ever a time in Imperial history when Terra was only lightly defended.

I mean...it's only been several centuries since the shock of the Traitor Legions' return and the 1st Black Crusade. Why would Sol be lightly defended?

It doesn't make sense to me.

...and no, five to seven hundred years is not a long time for the IoM, especially from the perspective of the High Lords, who have access to the best life-extending juvenat treatment and one of whom is the Custodes Captain-General

The Custodes Captain is a High Lord in M41. He is not a High Lord in M32. Not to mention that the High Lords have made it abundantly clear that anything happening outside of Segmentum Solar, at this time, is barely their concern, let alone what happened 500 years earlier.

Where does it say the Custodes general is not a High Lord in M32?

 

Regardless, High Lords live a very long time and the Imperium enjoys institutional and political continuity. What happened 500 years ago - like something as momentuous as the 1st Black Crusade - should not be easily forgotten.

 

If the High Lords are just incredibly petty and stupid, then I find that rather lazy writing as well.

 

The Custodes is not a High Lord because they list off the High Lords during a meeting and the most martial and imposing of the High Lords listed (can recall, Navigator, Astropath, Army, Navy, Arbites, Assassin, Inquisitor, Merchant Fleet, Ecclesiarch, Fabricator-General) was the Arbites commander. Custodes were certainly not present or they would likely be the most dominant physical presence in the room and the Arbites is noted to be the most warlike of the Lords. That is not a small detail.

 

As to the Custodes of Post-Heresy it is old lore that the 300 "Companions" never leave the Throne Room and other Custodes never leave the Imperial Palace, let alone Terra. The Custodes no longer wear power armor and have black clothes they wear symbolizing their mourning for the Emperor. The Outcast Dead states that Custodes take decades to create and it is not an easy process like Space Marine creation so it is unknown if they even reconstituted to their Pre-Heresy strengths which I would doubt. The only time the Custodes have made a move that I know Post-Heresy is in the Thorian Crusade when the Templars institute a "Last Wall" protocol to breach the walls of Terra for a second time and even then the Custodes do not leave the Imperial Palace, just usher the Proto-Sisters of Battle to the Throne Room in secret.

 

Also Bisoul you have to remember 32k is a Silver Age for the Imperium where the darkness has been beaten back (only the Inquisition pays the Great Enemy any mind), Aliens are an afterthought and the only enemies the leaders of mankind see sit across the table from each other. There are no defenses because there is no need for them and the IoM of 32k is not yet the Inquisitorial-Administratum-Military Industrial Complex-High Lord nightmare that we know it to be in 40k. The Inquisition has little to no true power or authority and work to garner it to the detriment of everyone (if they busted out a decoder ring I think people would just laugh). The Inner Circle/High Lords are softer than a roll of Charmin and are both incredibly petty and stupid. The one political hero in the book so far has been a guy who has been cast as a villain in rule Codices from later histories. The First Black Crusade was not even near Terra and was smacked down through blood sweat and tears (unless you take Abaddon's word for it). As to long lives equating to knowledge/learning in 40k, ask the Techpriests or Dark Angels how that is going for them. This timeline is not 40k. It is not.

 

Maybe the descriptions of Terran defenses in 40k are just hyperbole to scare the enemy (the Imperium lie about their defenses!? say it aint so!). I mean Necrons were able to run rampant through Terran space with just a couple of ships and that is in the time of the 40k "we are ready to exterminatus you for sneezing funny" mindset and not the 32k "Where are the twinkies?" mentality. Certainly no signs of installations able to destroy battlefleets and even then, a lesser Ork battlemoon has destroyed those no problemo. Anyways, drunk and rambling now. It is not 40k.

[b1soul]

Maybe this, maybe that...

 

You can explain away anything if you really want to

 

One man's plot hole is another man's "interesting take"

 

Frankly, regardless of how well defended Terra is...I'm bummed that only Book 1 is by Abnett

[DarkChaplain]

All I see is moaning in reply to people explaining their understanding of the situation in a reasonable manner. We might as well move on from that discussion since nobody is going to change their minds no matter how well laid out things are.

 

Personally, I felt that every installment so far was better than the last. The Last Wall is my favorite for turning it all on its head and casting the Orks as the civilized ones while mankind commits to fanaticism and barbarism. Least favorite so far was without a doubt Abnett's I Am Slaughter for a number of reasons, most being symptomatic of most books penned by Abnett. He's a good trend setter when it comes to spearheading a series, but he is pretty bad at continuing what others started and working in a big team effort like would be required here. Having him up front and then not again was the right decision in my eyes.

[b1soul]

All I see is bias in your post and an underhanded jab at one side of the discussion.

 

No one is moaning for the sake of moaning. Both sides have explained their views reasonably.

[Roomsky]

I can definitely see both sides. Needing a Mandeville point is a good... point, but I would expect Terra itself to at least have at least a few planetary defence systems in place. It probably would have only taken about a page to illustrate that all the heavy defenses were entrenched closer to the systems edge and that Terra's meagre artillery was not enough to destroy the attack moon.

 

As for the Custodes, they were probably too busy...

 

http://41.media.tumblr.com/529ba28b14e16e328cf99e6a79cb8926/tumblr_inline_npfbtrBiw21rzg3rp_500.jpg

 

...mourning

[Mellow]

Those Custodes (as horrendous as they are) are quite entertaining!

[karden00]

I can definitely see both sides. Needing a Mandeville point is a good... point, but I would expect Terra itself to at least have at least a few planetary defence systems in place. It probably would have only taken about a page to illustrate that all the heavy defenses were entrenched closer to the systems edge and that Terra's meagre artillery was not enough to destroy the attack moon.

 

As for the Custodes, they were probably too busy...

 

http://41.media.tumblr.com/529ba28b14e16e328cf99e6a79cb8926/tumblr_inline_npfbtrBiw21rzg3rp_500.jpg

 

...mourning

These guys make my day every time I see them. So much love for Bruva Alfabusa. 

Were these official GW art at any point or just something he whipped up? I cant recall ever seeing them before this

[Roomsky]

The Heads are from official art coloured black.

 

The bodies are the Pillar Men from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.

 

This is the image that started it all.

[Vesper]

I'm not sure that there was ever a time in Imperial history when Terra was only lightly defended.

 

I mean...it's only been several centuries since the shock of the Traitor Legions' return and the 1st Black Crusade. Why would Sol be lightly defended?

 

It doesn't make sense to me.

 

...and no, five to seven hundred years is not a long time for the IoM, especially from the perspective of the High Lords, who have access to the best life-extending juvenat treatment and one of whom is the Custodes Captain-General

 

Man, the M32 Imperium is a child.

At this time, the Imperium is what, 1000 years old ? 1500 years old ? I mean, my own beloved county, France, is 1500 years old.

The Imperium being that young makes 500 - 700 years a darn long time.

And of course Terra was lightly defended quite a few number of times in its history. That's the reason Dorn had to work on it during the Heresy. It is by M32 because it hadn't been threatened since the Heresy.

The First Black Crusade was a "OH MY GOD, MINDWIPE EVERYONE !" moment and it made more sense to fortify Cadia and its surroundings rather than Terra, because that's kind of the purpose of frontiers, to be safe behind them. The First Black Crusade shock has also been tempered with the feeling everything had been done to prevent Chaos Marines from returning again. In the minds of many -non mindwiped- imperials, the case is now as closed as the Cadian Gate (even though they are the same who thought themselves rid of the Traitor Legions).

In the end, Terra is weak. It's just a planet and this is not the time when it is garrisoned by three space marines legions hidden behind fortifications designed by a Primarch.