Black Book - Insurrection (PUBLISHED)

[bluntblade]

Sim, I'd say that's the order that works best so yeah

[simison]

I've uploaded the Scions' Exemplary Battles to Grifft. 

 

The Scions have now completed the first draft of their fluff chapter and are now on the crunch side of writing. They're nipping on the heels of the Godslayers, while the Drowned and the Harbingers remain the last two legions that need their fluff chapters done. Finally, the Iron Bears are a few centimetres from the finish line with some unit descriptions left.

[simison]

Back to the Goliaths, going off by what Grifft said, the attributes are fairly equal with a slight advantage to the Goliaths. Wargear, I view the Volkite Charger as superior to the Combi-bolter, the glaive over the axe, and Implacable Advance over Monster Hunter. Meanwhile, the Lerneans have access to more exotic ranged weaponry compared to the Goliaths. 

 

Overall, I'd suggest 215 points for the Goliaths with additional Goliaths at 40 points a piece. 

 

How does that sound, Squig?

[simison]

I have some concerns over the Scion Legion Tactics. Is this another situation where the first draft aims high and then comes back down? 

 

Because as they stand now every model gets FNP (6+) and Move through Cover. That would mean that every Scion vehicle is freed from worries about Dangerous Terrain. There's a rerollable FNP save courtesy of the second rule. 

 

No Man Left Behind is a little ungainly but does its job as a major hindrance fairly well, though I don't think it's enough to balance out the benefits. 

 

I'm going to go ahead and remove Hatred (Traitor Legions). The Legion Tactics are to represent the core of a legion's character from the Great Crusade through the Insurrection. Hatred for the other side does not belong here and is reserved for unique rites of war and unique characters. 

 

Preferred Enemy (Xenos), however, is very much a fluffy rule that can stay if Slips wants though it might serve more as a distraction. 

 

Overall, even after removing the Hatred rule, it needs to be brought down some more. 

[Slips]

Honestly, I haven't changed or reviewed pretty much any of the crunch in a LOOOONG time.

[simison]

Honestly, I haven't changed or reviewed pretty much any of the crunch in a LOOOONG time.

 

Oh, well that explains it.

[Big Bad Squig]

@simison yeah I'm happy with those points costs for the goliaths :)

[Grifftofer]

I have some concerns over the Scion Legion Tactics. Is this another situation where the first draft aims high and then comes back down? 

 

Because as they stand now every model gets FNP (6+) and Move through Cover. That would mean that every Scion vehicle is freed from worries about Dangerous Terrain. There's a rerollable FNP save courtesy of the second rule. 

 

No Man Left Behind is a little ungainly but does its job as a major hindrance fairly well, though I don't think it's enough to balance out the benefits. 

 

I'm going to go ahead and remove Hatred (Traitor Legions). The Legion Tactics are to represent the core of a legion's character from the Great Crusade through the Insurrection. Hatred for the other side does not belong here and is reserved for unique rites of war and unique characters. 

 

Preferred Enemy (Xenos), however, is very much a fluffy rule that can stay if Slips wants though it might serve more as a distraction. 

 

Overall, even after removing the Hatred rule, it needs to be brought down some more. 

The Vehicles won't be able to ignore difficult terrain as they don't actually have the Legiones Astartes special rule and Move Through Cover doesn't carry over to dedicated transports. But if you're looking for another downside you could require that any Scions army take an Apothecary Detachment or (for a slightly stronger downside) a Primus Medicae. This would in effect reduce the number of Elite/HQ choices available by one and force the player to tie up points in models they might not otherwise pick (Although I can't see a Scions force not taking at least some Apothecaries).

[MikhalLeNoir]

Hah!!! Now I remeber why the scions amd wardens don't get along. It was because Gwal liked xenos and Pionius hated them, so he distrusts Gwal.

[simison]

Kinda like how the Word Bearers have to have 2 HQs? Yeah, that can work. 

 

The Move Through Cover rule doesn't look that OP now, but I am still not in favor of a universal FNP or a rerollable one. I think the strengthened apothecaries should be the ones responsible for FNP everywhere. 

 

Also, Squig, I was about to move onto the Suppressor Squad, when I caught something. You haven't made a RoW for the Godslayers yet. Or, at least, there isn't one in the PDF. One of the RoWs, I bet, is going to be a Nurgle formation, but one should represent vanilla/Loyalist Godslayers.

[Slips]

An idea would be to force each and every squad that can do so to take an Apothecary (without an Elites Slot Requirement). Since they can take Bikes and Jump Packs after the most recent update, that means pretty much every infantry unit barring Jetbikes and Terminators must spend points on one.

 

It also has the side effect of making Tactical Squads unable to take Rhinos since they'd be 11 man Strong, Tac Vets would also be unable to if they wanted to use 2 Special Weapons AND a Rhino (1 in 5 choice) which plays into using their Phaeton-Pattern Storm Eagle if its allowed to be a Dedicated Transport for Squads of infantry numbering 10+ marines.

 

It would also bump the cost of and and all squads subject to the rule by ~45-75 points and even more so if they want a transport that can carry them all.

[Big Bad Squig]

Kinda like how the Word Bearers have to have 2 HQs? Yeah, that can work. 

 

The Move Through Cover rule doesn't look that OP now, but I am still not in favor of a universal FNP or a rerollable one. I think the strengthened apothecaries should be the ones responsible for FNP everywhere. 

 

Also, Squig, I was about to move onto the Suppressor Squad, when I caught something. You haven't made a RoW for the Godslayers yet. Or, at least, there isn't one in the PDF. One of the RoWs, I bet, is going to be a Nurgle formation, but one should represent vanilla/Loyalist Godslayers.

 

Hmmmm... I remember writing one - I probably just forgot to add it in with the other stuff - I'll have a look tomorrow

[simison]

An idea would be to force each and every squad that can do so to take an Apothecary (without an Elites Slot Requirement). Since they can take Bikes and Jump Packs after the most recent update, that means pretty much every infantry unit barring Jetbikes and Terminators must spend points on one.

 

It also has the side effect of making Tactical Squads unable to take Rhinos since they'd be 11 man Strong, Tac Vets would also be unable to if they wanted to use 2 Special Weapons AND a Rhino (1 in 5 choice) which plays into using their Phaeton-Pattern Storm Eagle if its allowed to be a Dedicated Transport for Squads of infantry numbering 10+ marines.

 

It would also bump the cost of and and all squads subject to the rule by ~45-75 points and even more so if they want a transport that can carry them all.

 

I would count that as a very strong hindrance. Enough to balance out the Move Through Cover, and it makes the universal 6+ FNP unnecessary. 

 

So, we have:

 

• Universal Move Through Cover (Strong boost)
• Rerollable FNP (Strong boost)
• Required Apothecary for every squad (Strong hindrance)
• Preferred Enemy - Xenos (Fluffy, tiny boost)

Still a little strong. What could substitute for the rerollable FNP?

[Slips]

Well, for one, the Re-roll to FNP goes away if the Model giving the FNP (Apothecary in this case) dies or is removed. And it only occurs once per phase. So while its strong if a unit only takes wounds from a singular source, if they get pummeled repeatedly, they won't have the re-roll on subsequent fails.

[simison]

Hmm, I'd like to hear Grifft's position when he comes in tomorrow.

[Slips]

Sure.

[Grifftofer]

I think that the single re-roll per phase is viable as a rule. It gives a noticeable benefit, but perhaps not as big as you might think. After all it can only save one model per phase and it is expensive to get a Narthecium for already expensive units such as Terminators. So it is mainly the easier to kill units that will gain the benefit, but they are also the ones who will lose out most from being unable to take a transport.

 

I think the rules are reasonably balanced. The points increase is fairly hefty for each unit and the main bonuses are lost should that single model be killed.

[simison]

Alright, if someone (Slips, blunt, or other) could write up the revised rules, I can pass them to Grifft....if he doesn't simply grab them, I suppose.

[Slips]

Legiones Astartes: Scions Hospitaliers

• Legiones Astartes: Units and Models with the LA(SH) special rule may always attempt to regroup at normal leadership regardless of casualties sustained.
• Scions Hospitalier: Units that can, must be joined by an Apothecary. Apothecaries purchased in this manner do not take an elites slot. Additionally, models with the LA(SH) rule gain Move Through Cover special rule.
• Purity Above All: Units with the LA(SH) rule and joined by a model with a Narthecium of any kind may reroll a single failed Feel No Pain roll per phase and gain the Preferred Enemy (Xenos) special rule.
• No One Left Behind: Units with the LA(SH) special rule suffer a -1 modifier to Sweeping Advance and Fall Back rolls. This modifier increases to -2 once the unit has suffered 25% casualties. Additionally If the unit contains a model with a Narthecium, Iona-Pattern Narthecium, The Saviour or Ultima Narthecium Array they may not add their Initiative score to Sweeping Advance rolls, this replaces the former modifiers to Sweeping Advances rather than being in addition to them.

 

That should be that done. Now, as we move forward, remember that a LOT of their stuff (units and wargear) also haven't been touched or modified in a while.

[Grifftofer]

I already have some comments ready and waiting ;)

[bluntblade]

Odyssalas doesn't have a Warlord Trait yet, I'll have to consult Slips.

[Big Bad Squig]

 

Kinda like how the Word Bearers have to have 2 HQs? Yeah, that can work. 

 

The Move Through Cover rule doesn't look that OP now, but I am still not in favor of a universal FNP or a rerollable one. I think the strengthened apothecaries should be the ones responsible for FNP everywhere. 

 

Also, Squig, I was about to move onto the Suppressor Squad, when I caught something. You haven't made a RoW for the Godslayers yet. Or, at least, there isn't one in the PDF. One of the RoWs, I bet, is going to be a Nurgle formation, but one should represent vanilla/Loyalist Godslayers.

 

Hmmmm... I remember writing one - I probably just forgot to add it in with the other stuff - I'll have a look tomorrow

 

 

 

Found it, although it's a little old so might need some revising:

 

Rite Of War:  The Lanterns’ Fire

 

Effects:

When Diplomacy Fails:  All units with the Legiones Astartes (Godslayers) gain the Crusader Special Rule.

Smother the Warp:  Suppressor Squads lose the Support Squad special rule in an army using this Rite of War.

 

Limitations:

Focused Suppression:  An army using this Right of War must take a minimum of two HQs, at least one of which must have the Pariah special rule.

Sledgehammer Assault:  An army using this Rite of War must have more Heavy Support units than Fast Attack units.

[simison]

The Lantern's Fire

 

• Moderate Bonus
• Moderate Bonus
• Moderate Hindrance
• Moderate Hindrance

 

Grifft, I think it's fairly balanced as it is. What do you say? Also, Squig, the rite will need some fluff to describe it. 

 

And did you grab the revised Scion tactics, Grifft?

[Grifftofer]

It looks good to me. I've already ported the Scions new rules over. I'll do the RoW in the morning.

[Slips]

Odyssalas doesn't have a Warlord Trait yet, I'll have to consult Slips.

He doesn't need a fixed one, a randomly rolled one is fine enough as-is :p