Insurrection Pattern Power Armor

[simison]

Knew this thread existed somewhere. 

[~Drakzilla~]

I guess I'll stick my thoughts on the previous power armor discussion in here.

 

The 9,000 year use of Mk.VII power armor has never been a big deal to me, and I think it makes narrative sense. Often, the number one driver of innovation in the real world and especially in the 40k-verse is large-scale conflict. In history, the two World Wars advanced military (and civilian) technology by great leaps, and in Warhammer, that conflict would be the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy (and Insurrection). There, Humanity is at its peak, with the Imperial war machine at its strongest, developing more effective armor and weapons mainly to steamroll over new Xenos threats.

 

By the end of the Heresy/Insurrection, the Imperium's resources and technical knowledge have been razed to the point where it's no longer feasible to produce advanced armor like Mk.IV, or the battle-automata of the Mechanicum. While Mk.IV power armor may have been the "peak" of space marine armor, Mk.VII provides the most protection for a suit that's easy to produce and repair.

 

For the next 9,000 years, there's little advancement in armor designs because there's no need for advancement. The Imperium is just trying to survive at this point, so it makes little sense from their standpoint to try and improve on something that's been getting the job done. Especially when the expertise required to work on such things is in short supply, and can be better spent on maintaining the tech that they already have.

 

Plus, the Post-Heresy Mechanicum has a much tighter lid on the whole "innovation" thing than during the Great Crusade, when the Omnissiah himself was basically instructing them to pump out new and improved toys.

[simison]

I've never had a problem with the 9k year freeze, but I can understand how some people would. Personally, I'm not sure if the Suzerainty will maintain that same level of stagnation.

 

Well, I just read through this entire thread. I don't think the Saturnyne armour made its way into any of the rulebooks. Quite a bit of debate over the 'Corvus' name. Sarum serves the Wardens. 

 

Trying to sync this thread with what's going on in the General Discussion one, I think it's well understood that Mark IV armour has been completely adapted by the time the Insurrection starts. Since it was supposed to provide the same benefits as Mark 2, but with better armour, I think it's safe to say that Mark 2 goes the same way as Mark 1. 

 

The same doesn't quite happen to Mark 3 since it does offer superior forward protection than Mark 4. 

 

There's some question about what Mark 5 and 6 are. It appears there is a real desire for the Beakie armour, but also some pull for an easier to maintain armour mark. And there's also some desire for an upgraded Mark 3 armour. 

[Sigismund229]

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Angelus-1-1.jpg

 

I always thought the marine in Mk.IV's helmet could make for a cool base for an upgraded Mk.III

[simison]

Always happy to see BA. Anyway, the most interesting point made regarding the armour discussion was how the Corvus was allowed to field test in the hopes that it would fail. Let's set the stage here. The Mark IV is now widespread enough it's the standard, around 020. Mark II is completely out of production. Yet, the Great Crusade continues onward. What do the Legions want to see next for Mark V? 

[Sigismund229]

The Lions would be looking for an armour that is easy to mass produce given that they're growing quite quickly(about 1,750 legionaries a year from the Qarith Triumph until the DoR not counting replacements for losses suffered which would be significant) as well as an armour with greater frontal protection than the Mk.IV but with all the internal systems.

[Slips]

The idea of "Scionizing" various marks of armor fills me with a certain amount of glee.

[~Drakzilla~]

There's already a production Mk.V armor:

 

It was first developed when the Heresy broke out, as a durable and easy to manufacture pattern. Mk VI might have been around in prototype form during the late Crusade, but didn't become "production" until post-Heresy. I don't see why we can't just stick to a similar timetable, just a bit more spaced out.

 

Also, Mk.II power armor supposedly enhances the user's strength more than other types of power armor, so I'd be hesitant to have it go the way of Mk.I during the Crusade. It might be old, but it still has its niche. Plus, I think we should keep it open as an option for people if they want to build a BoTL army in Mk.II.

[Slips]

For reference, here's a link to FFG's Rites of Battle supplement to the Deathwatch RPG within which you can find a bit more detail on the Armour Marks I - VIII as well as a more detailed look as to how different they probably end up being since Power Armour on the Table Top is always a 3+ Regardless.

 

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AqrDmDB5nqhsguRTL1LSfFQ-L3Ah9w

[simison]

I didn't mean to say that Mark II's have all been removed from service. Only that they are produced on demand or by specialized artisans, just no longer mass produced. It can and is still used by legionnaires who desire to. (Although it does seem that it didn't possess any extra strength over the Mark III.) 

 

Fair point about the Mark V, but that still leaves the Mark VI. The decision to dedicate it as a testbed for new sensory equipment seems to be embroiled in politics. As Sig has pointed out, there are legions demanding an up-to-date version of the Mark III, which itself is a specialty suit. At the very least in 020, there would be efforts to begin drawing up design concepts for VI after Mark V has been settled on as an easy maintenance suit.

 

Slips, thanks for the pdf. It was very illuminating about the nuances between marks.

[Kelborn]

Just to get it clear.

 

Haven't we already decided that our Mark V would be an easy to maintanence and product pattern? Mostly basing on the fact of scavenging the battlefields and trying to get functional armor?

 

Or was that discussion in terms of differences between the three factions?

 

Anyway, I agree with Drak that we could keep the original timeline.

 

MK V being released as a pattern for the fast growing Legions, MK VI (after being tested by our stealthy Legions like the Serpents) is started to produce in masses (would also underline the need for such an armor for some Legions which fight a hit & run campaign) and MK VII being tested (and most likely produced in masses) during the last years of the Insurrection.

 

MK VII was already used during the HH.

 

Afterwards, we can think of more individual armor sets. Imperium could stagnate, keeping their idea of Old = Better

Traitors would go with easy producable patterns and those scavanged from battlefields

Suzerainty (mostly because of Nomus) might go with its own mark, adapted to their limited ressources and the likes (as a basement for the Genesis Legion)

[Chief Captain Redd]

We could introduce Mk VIII earlier, then have a number of specialization suits developed over time in conjunction with other Legions. Like Niklaas could work with the best Artificers from the VIth.

 

It think we approach from this direction we can both innovation and degradation.

[simison]

Just to get it clear.

 

Haven't we already decided that our Mark V would be an easy to maintanence and product pattern? Mostly basing on the fact of scavenging the battlefields and trying to get functional armor?

 

Anyway, I agree with Drak that we could keep the original timeline.

 

 

Yes, there will be no change in Mark V's purpose, only that it's more developed than it was in canon. So, it's not completely just a hodgepodge of whatever scraps you can throw together, but it's split between scavenging pieces on top of a more universal base. 

 

Mark VI is up for debate because we don't have Corax here, pushing for the advanced sensor suit. We do have at least one vocal Primarch pushing Mars to advance the Mk. III design with new tech. So, what do the BotL Primarchs want for a new specialty suit? The Ninja or the Paladin? 

 

EDIT: Keep in mind, I'm not saying we shouldn't follow the canon timeline in Mark development. But the primary force behind the Corvus-pattern is not here in our canon. If we're going to stick to canon, I want to know if there is a justifiable reason other than that's how it was in canon.

Edited March 12, 2017 by simison

[MikhalLeNoir]

I want a paladin ninja or a ninja paladin. Some dark knight^^

[~Drakzilla~]

Dune Serpents could be the ones to push for Mk.VI. It suits their fighting style the best, and I already gave them Mk.VI for their example marine.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Dune Serpents could be the ones to push for Mk.VI. It suits their fighting style the best, and I already gave them Mk.VI for their example marine.

That was a bit hasty^^

 

No, think you are right. But if all is lost tge beakies could be a specialty from their homeworld.

[Kelborn]

Ninja would fit the Preds more.

[simison]

Bringing up the list Sig made yesterday:

 

"Legions who I imagine would want essentially an update of the Mk.III:

Crimson Lions
Void Eagles
Godslayers
Berserkers of Uran
Fire Keepers
Drowned
Scions Hospitalier

Those who I imagine would want Corvus armour:

Dune Serpents
Steel Legion
Wardens of Light(?)
Eagle Warriors(?)"

 

Adding the Predators doesn't shift the matter, but I think one Legion would prove decisive: the Lightning Bearers. Now, I don't think they'd actually adopt the armour wholesale but think of the Day of Revelation. Icarion is going to want to maximize the damage done in a series of ambushes, which will require mobility and up-to-date knowledge on the battlefield. The majority of Legions who want an updated Mk. III are Loyalist. Whereas, in addition to the Predators, the Grave Stalkers are also heavily invested in ninja armour. 

 

In the end, I think Icarion will see more of a benefit for pushing for ninja over paladin armour. 

[Sigismund229]

We could perhaps justify it by saying that during the Qarith War, the legions noted that their recon abilities were hampered by armour that was too loud and clunky, meaning that a stealth suit would be a more important priority than updated Mk.III. While Mk.III is getting old, it still works and is effective. By comparison, all non Mk.VI power armour is noted to be so loud that it's so difficult to move stealthily in it it's usually not worth the effort. So stealth is a gap in the legion's capabilities, whereas Mk.III still functions. 

[simison]

That could be an additional factor. At this point, I think the beakie pattern will still be Mark 6. Not sure about 7, but that can wait for later.

[simison]

According to the Space Wolves section, and I apologize if everyone knew about this before I did, only a few hundred Tartaros terminator suits were in the field when the Heresy began. Given the extra couple of decades, they'll obviously be more widespread in BotL. How does the Indomitus being more widespread affect the Cataphractii? 

[bluntblade]

Cataphractii will likely be used by the same sort of units that fielded it previously. Indomitus is more aimed at mass production

[simison]

[saving this info from General Thread and the recent Discord conversation.]

 

To summarize:

Mark II (Almost gone)

Mark III (About to be replaced)

Mark IV (Most common suit)

Mark V (Cost-effective suit favoured by Berserkers, Void Eagles, & Eagle Warriors)

Mark VI (Same as canon, favoured by Wardens of Light, Dune Serpents, & Predators)

Mark VII (Update of Mark III, looks like canon Mark 8, production starts at the beginning of the Insurrection)

 

Regarding Mark 7, it has a more interesting fate. As Icarion is the primary force behind Mark 6, which in canon was the precursor to Mark 7, his counter-empire actually creates the canon Mark 7 before the Imperium does, about a decade into the war. The Imperium does eventually match the development a few years later, but then adds the aquila to their pattern to distinguish between Loyalist and Traitor. 

 

Mark 9 is a post-Insurrection model that has the ability to switch out armour pieces to enhance Psyker, Pariah, or Underwater combat.

[bluntblade]

There should be more Terminator variants too, as there has been time to refine them. Btw I think in fluff Indomitus was always the most common, just not seen in BL cos we were generally looking at elites