[HH1.0] Thousand Sons tactica

[Nusquam]

You are correct in the Feel No Pain would count as saved. And if Signs and Portents required an unsaved wound, Feel No Pain would stop it and we wouldn't be having this debate. However, Signs only requires that at some point, regardless whether or not it was saved, to have simply occurred. Which is exactly what perils does. The one requirement, suffering a wound, occurred during perils. You may have a case too if Signs didn't immediately trigger as soon as the pskyer suffered a wound via perils, which would occur before FnP is even  taken.

 

Let's take it to the Rules forum, I'll make the topic and link it back in to this post.

 

 

Your analogy is wrong. FNP doesn't repair the damage (IWND does). FNP goes back and prevents the wound from happening in the first place.

It's a loose analogy, it may not have been perfect but my other points still stand.

 

I made a Rules topic for this debate:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330851-feel-no-pain-vs-signs-and-portents/

Edited February 10, 2017 by Nusquam

[Athrawes]

As to your car crash analogy, FNP doesnt repair the damage. as per it's wording of counting the wound as saved in the first place, it means you never "crashed" (got wounded) in the first place.

[Withershadow]

This is like the third or fourth "common sense" thing we've tried to obfuscate with needless pedantry. Is everything alright, Nusquam? :P

 

A "saved" wound is the same thing as wound that wasn't suffered. FNP is not a saving throw, but it can save you from wounds. This is what the rules and the GW response tells us. This is all just empty noise.

[Nusquam]

Yeah yeah the car analogy wasn't water tight, you got me there.

 

I guess it's just the web developer and designer in me. I'm required to be very specific in all aspect of my profession from coding(especially here) to art. It's a part of me. I read things like rules and then attempt to execute it like a program. Don't even get me started on how much head space I have dedicated to complex competitive MtG play rulings where "common sense" and "fun" isn't allowed ha.

 

 

Really digging the idea of a Delegatus running Chosen Duty and 3x Tac Vets with Marksmen, Asphyx and Lvl. 1 psyker upgrade. Tasty.

 

Also sorry we drowned you out. I was taught never to back down, it kind of flares up at times, my bad. But I agree with your statement. You can't beat making a quality unit even more so.

[Withershadow]

We'll have to really wait and see... so far the lists I am seeing are full of relatively powerful units (as in, units that are stronger than their Legion brethren but equally costly to compensate), closer to Mechanicum or I guess Talons lists, rather than a traditional Legion.  When every unit in the army is psychic and is throwing dice at charges, you are going to get the occasional peril wound slip by, and those pinning tests are going to hurt. Then if you lose all your ICs, you're resting on -1 Ld for everything!

[Nusquam]

The thing with vets is that they are under-priced now.

 

10 tooled-up Mor Deythan in a rhino costs 364, and will murder one target and harass others

 

10 Head Hunters without upgrades in a rhino is 350, and will harass scoring in power armor and kill them well in CC.

 

10 Veterans with sniper, asphyx rounds, ML1, with two flamers is 270. That's almost a hundred point difference, for a psychic unit that has precision shots, always wounds on a 4+ or better with shred, AP2 on 6s to wound, and two flamers(with sniper). The could use Prescience to then twin link their shooting. There's still room for upgrades, like two axes and AA on the sarge to bring it up to 300. Still 50 or more points fewer than two legion specific squads. That is insanely good comparatively.

[Withershadow]

Head Hunters are the worst unit in the game.  Mor Deythan are costed competitively to specialist units like support squads or seekers, but yes Veterans are downright the best troop choice. But just look at your example, you pay 50 points over a comparative unit from another Legion. Sure, it's only 50 points, and you get some nice buffs out of it. But take 2 squads, now that's already 100, that's a javelin + miscellaneous equipment or a damocles or almost a dreadclaw or a dreadnought pod.  Add some more unique units that pay an otherwise fair amount for their upgrades, and you end up with the currently typical ~2500 point TS list that has like 40 dudes and a handful of transports.

 

Warp power is seductive and insidious, make sure you can bear the price. :P

[Learn2Eel]

Head Hunters are the worst unit in the game.  Mor Deythan are costed competitively to specialist units like support squads or seekers, but yes Veterans are downright the best troop choice. But just look at your example, you pay 50 points over a comparative unit from another Legion. Sure, it's only 50 points, and you get some nice buffs out of it. But take 2 squads, now that's already 100, that's a javelin + miscellaneous equipment or a damocles or almost a dreadclaw or a dreadnought pod.  Add some more unique units that pay an otherwise fair amount for their upgrades, and you end up with the currently typical ~2500 point TS list that has like 40 dudes and a handful of transports.

 

Warp power is seductive and insidious, make sure you can bear the price.

Aren't the Veterans *cheaper* than the other options presented? I thought that was the point of Nusquam's post? 

I just did the maths myself, 10 Veterans with Mastery Level 1, Asphyx Shells and 2 Flamers are 225 points, but add in a Rhino and they are 260 points. 

[Nusquam]

Instead of a javelin or the other examples you get to shoot lightning from your fingertips and psycho-reactive toxic bolt rounds. How awesome is that? That aside you're effectively turning a generic unit into a souped-up unit comparable to quality Legion Specific units like Mor Deythan for fewer points. You win the "unique unit cost efficiency contest" instantly. Head Hunters would kill for that kind of points to quality ratio. The points add up, but they can add up everywhere; it's choosing where they are most efficiently spent that is the wise thing to do. It's hard to beat under-priced legion vets when dumping kit into them makes them inflate from "under-priced" to "well priced" as opposed to over-priced ha. Plus the upside of this is that it is just one good option among many TS have. Other legions aren't so lucky.

 

 

 

Head Hunters are the worst unit in the game.  Mor Deythan are costed competitively to specialist units like support squads or seekers, but yes Veterans are downright the best troop choice. But just look at your example, you pay 50 points over a comparative unit from another Legion. Sure, it's only 50 points, and you get some nice buffs out of it. But take 2 squads, now that's already 100, that's a javelin + miscellaneous equipment or a damocles or almost a dreadclaw or a dreadnought pod.  Add some more unique units that pay an otherwise fair amount for their upgrades, and you end up with the currently typical ~2500 point TS list that has like 40 dudes and a handful of transports.

 

Warp power is seductive and insidious, make sure you can bear the price.

Aren't the Veterans *cheaper* than the other options presented? I thought that was the point of Nusquam's post? 
I just did the maths myself, 10 Veterans with Mastery Level 1, Asphyx Shells and 2 Flamers are 225 points, but add in a Rhino and they are 260 points. 

 

 

Yes that's my point ha. And whoops, I calculated flamers to cost as much as a plasmagun. But hey, even cheaper ha.

[Learn2Eel]

I've been coming to similar conclusions during my discussions with others. There are so many brilliant uses of just the Legion rules Thousand Sons possess without even requiring the use of powerful units such as the Sekhmet and Magnus. Corvidae Tactical Squads that are pushed into position by Ahriman are almost as efficient as Imperial Fist Tacticals for raw bolter damage and can easily set up an early game Fury of the Legion attack. Veterans with Asphyx Rounds, Corvidae and Divination are very efficient (casting on a 3+) psykers with some devastating powers (namely Precognition) and deadly with their Shredding Sniper boltguns. Thousand Sons actually make Rotor Cannon Support Squads worthwhile unlike any other Legion. All of our heavy weapon units tend to be better than the identical generic equivalents of other Legions thanks to the Corvidae cult. We get better invulnerable saves than other Legions on units that normally can't get such buffs like Assault Squads and Breacher Teams, or units that some Legions can specifically pay to upgrade such as Terminators used by Imperial Fists and Salamanders. We get potentially the most powerful (but expensive) Praetors thanks to psychic abilities - Praetors with Biomancy are going to be brutal - and our generic characters can do so much work as psykers (especially Chaplains!) Though the benefits aren't massive in all cases (the big exception being the Veterans) and we do have some big downsides to our Legion (army-wide Pinning can be game-losing) there's so much to love about our rules. We keep finding awesome things to try out!

[Charlo]

Correct me if I'm wrong....

 

But none of the 1KSons units are listed as "loyalist/ traitor" only, right?

 

So you can totally run Magnus and his Sehkmet as loyalists?

[Mango Polo]

Pretty much. This takes place before Loyalist and Traitors would become a clear line.

[Charlo]

Wunderba! That is very appealing to me :D

[Runefyre]

Correct me if I'm wrong....

 

But none of the 1KSons units are listed as "loyalist/ traitor" only, right?

 

So you can totally run Magnus and his Sehkmet as loyalists?

Doomed loyalists, yes. That's probably my favorite aspect of the Thousand Sons. Even though they're cursed, they wanted to do the right thing until the very end.

 

Anyway, I'm wanting to add some loyalist Tsons to my Ultramarine's shattered force (alongside Space Wolves, as well, very intentionally ironic ). Does the Covenent of Sorcerer's rule stop me from taking them? I'm thinking not, considering my warlord will be an Ultramarine, thus making it an Ultramarine detachment?

[Charlo]

 

Correct me if I'm wrong....

 

But none of the 1KSons units are listed as "loyalist/ traitor" only, right?

 

So you can totally run Magnus and his Sehkmet as loyalists?

Doomed loyalists, yes. That's probably my favorite aspect of the Thousand Sons. Even though they're cursed, they wanted to do the right thing until the very end.

 

Anyway, I'm wanting to add some loyalist Tsons to my Ultramarine's shattered force (alongside Space Wolves, as well, very intentionally ironic ). Does the Covenent of Sorcerer's rule stop me from taking them? I'm thinking not, considering my warlord will be an Ultramarine, thus making it an Ultramarine detachment?

 

That sounds correct, as it is not a Thousand Sons detachment I don't think you'd need to adheer to those rules.

[Nusquam]

 

Correct me if I'm wrong....

 

But none of the 1KSons units are listed as "loyalist/ traitor" only, right?

 

So you can totally run Magnus and his Sehkmet as loyalists?

Doomed loyalists, yes. That's probably my favorite aspect of the Thousand Sons. Even though they're cursed, they wanted to do the right thing until the very end.

 

Anyway, I'm wanting to add some loyalist Tsons to my Ultramarine's shattered force (alongside Space Wolves, as well, very intentionally ironic ). Does the Covenent of Sorcerer's rule stop me from taking them? I'm thinking not, considering my warlord will be an Ultramarine, thus making it an Ultramarine detachment?

 

 

Doing the same thing with my RG so I don't have to have an entire army out the gate. I just reread the Shattered and TS rules. The Covenant tells us that a detachment is considered the legion before choosing the warlord, during list creation even. But the the Shattered Legions rule is a theme designed to be thematic rather than competitive. It also requires permission from your opponent to field. So I don't think you need to worry about it.

[Withershadow]

Why are chaplains so particularly beloved? The fearless and re-rolls, and pre-purchased power weapon to be upgraded for a force axe?

[Charlo]

Why are chaplains so particularly beloved? The fearless and re-rolls, and pre-purchased power weapon to be upgraded for a force axe?

 

Yup. All very powerful buffing abilities in the Heresy, especially when most fights are WS4 vs WS4 etc

[Withershadow]

Interesting. So far I've focused on Primus Medicae for Sekhmet, and Forge Lord for the Khenetai.  I will need to do some math about whether a Chaplain's re-rolls would help the Blade Cabal more than -1T to enemies. I feel like Divination's attack re-rolls are a lot easier to come by than rolling Iron Arm for the unit.  The 4 powerfist attacks and extra durability (3++ save if Raptora) may outweigh the Fearless power axe dude. Crusader is nice, but Pavoni already get +1 to sweeps so eh.

[Nusquam]

The Chaplain has guaranteed rerolls in every first round. The Blade Cabal at 10+ with a Chaplain would deal 23 wounds MEQ at I4 right out of the gate. With the warp charges you saved from not casting prescience you could easily cast force making them all negate any FNP effects. Without the reroll it's 17. So you could eat blobs either way.

 

Against T4 2+ you cause 3 wounds. With force that's three dead fire drakes or death shroud. With the Chaplain it's 4. This is at I4 before they even swing.

 

Plus because you're rolling on biomancy for the Blade Cabal you have a chance at Iron Arm, which would kill about 13 fire drake equivalents under force at I4 and make you T7 to avoid ID from S8. Or Warp Speed, killing 6 drake equivalents. Or you might get enfeeble, reducing them to S7. So if you had an apothecary you would get FnP. Endurance is pure gold so long as you don't face ID. The last two powers are just more AP2 wounds to couple with smite to shoot some wounds off first. The Chaplain can take two plasma pistols as well if you want to try to peel off more wounds.

[Gawain Veteris]

These rules are highlighting (perhaps more than other FW legions) a level of almost scholarly/academic complexity and ambiguity which is apropos for the Thousand Sons. 

 

I'm about ready to assemble my 1ksons force. I'm somewhat limited by time and funds so I'm gonna use what I've got. I'm thinking of running Magistus Amon with Sekhmet Cabal (Tartaros) and Apothecary (Corvidae & Athanean, Raptorae and Pavoni respectively [4/5 Cults Represented]) for a mini psychic deathstar, Two Legion Veteran Tactical Squads, Legion Support Squad (Plasma/Corvidae), Legion Heavy Support Squad (Plasma Cannon/Corvidae), Ammitara Intercessors and a Contemptor. So looking forward to modelling these guys.

[Withershadow]

Something to keep in mind, Magnus' leadership buffs do not apply while he is in a transport or in reserve, but thankfully the re-rolls to reserves do.

[ShadowCore67]

So any opinions on if Magnus' triple 6 perils overrides sanctic perils?

[Athrawes]

So any opinions on if Magnus' triple 6 perils overrides sanctic perils?

 

I believe so as it is a newer special rule, which overrides older rules.

 

That is RAW.

 

I also think however, that the RAI here would probably be to to Peril on sanctic by rolling any tripple. That would make it consistent, but that is in no way how the rules are written.

[Charlo]

Not RAI at all really... He's very unique in that he gets Sanctic pretty Scott free.

 

A further question though, if he fails to cast the vortex, does he perils?

 

RAW he ONLY perils on a triple 6, nothing else...