[HH1.0] Thousand Sons tactica

[Athrawes]

A bit of clarification: If I take an Osiron Dreadnought as my sole HQ, am I making my army immune to the "if you lose all IC's your men are -1Ld" penalty? 

 

Unfortunately no. The Osiron Cannot be your Compulsory/sole HQ choice.

 

Under the Legiones Astartes (Thousand Sons):

 

Covenant of Sorcerers says that your armies warlord must be an Independent Character with a Master Level of at least 1. Unfortunately, the same point your making, that Dreadnoughts are not IC, means that it also cannot be your only HQ.

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

A bit of clarification: If I take an Osiron Dreadnought as my sole HQ, am I making my army immune to the "if you lose all IC's your men are -1Ld" penalty? 

 

Unfortunately no. The Osiron Cannot be your Compulsory/sole HQ choice.

 

Under the Legiones Astartes (Thousand Sons):

 

Covenant of Sorcerers says that your armies warlord must be an Independent Character with a Master Level of at least 1. Unfortunately, the same point your making, that Dreadnoughts are not IC, means that it also cannot be your only HQ.

 

 

Can anyone show me where it says "Osirion is an HQ choice" because I am staring at the entry in the book and it says "retains all standard options for a contemptor dreadnought" and it says nothing about changing slots, what am I missing?  It says "taken as part of a contemptor talon" so I presume this means it also is part of the elite slot contemptor talon option..... as its an upgrade applied? 

 

Or am I totally off the ball? 

[Silk]

I am sorry guys that i have to ask here to,

I planned to start thousand sons,

 

But then i felt in love with this guy:

 

The new Moritat from Forgeworld.

 

http://www.brueckenkopf-online.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Forge-World_The-Horus-Heresy-Weekender-Preview-5.jpg

 

So guys what would you think , is there a way to put him in the fluff for the thousand sons?

[Nusquam]

It's in the list of "Legion Specific Units" that TS can take that identifies the Osiron as an HQ. It just uses the Contemptor stuff to build it, otherwise it would be technically slot-les.

 

If Sekhemt do allow for generation of other disciplines, but you can choose on Telekinesis/Pyro, I would be tempted for levitation and a roll on biomancy. Every single power there is amazing for them. Iron to obliterate things and be immune to S8 ID, Warp Speed to mince things, Life Leech to regen wounds, Endurance for survivibility, Enfeeble to make a target marine unit with fists S7 to avoid ID and wound them easier, and Haemorrhage to bypass LoS! and gib a sarge with a fist.

 

Edit for the simultaneous post, ha:

 

 

I am sorry guys that i have to ask here to,
I planned to start thousand sons,

But then i felt in love with this guy:

The new Moritat from Forgeworld.

http://www.brueckenkopf-online.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Forge-World_The-Horus-Heresy-Weekender-Preview-5.jpg

So guys what would you think , is there a way to put him in the fluff for the thousand sons?

 

 

I love Moritats, I do. So does my group; to the point we redid their rules entirely to make them worth their points. That said, they are not worth their points whatsoever. 12 Bolt pistols shots that prevent you and your unit from charging are never worth it, 12 volkite shots could be done easier through support squads and still charge and is cheaper(Moritat+destroyers so the moritat doesn't just die instantly and give up a potential VP), and the plasma overheat nerf is so bad that its just not worth taking.

 

If they just had Sniper for bolt/volkite and removed the super overheat(or even remove the part where one pistol can stop both) they would be great. Them being able to go above 12 shots is what made them broken, I got 70-something hits once with Kaedes Nex. But 12 cap with bolt and volkite is bad, and the super overheat is terrible.

 

I'm still buying the FW model though because it is gorgeous and I fortunately have a progressive group. But I can't recommend taking one other than for Rule of Cool as-is.

 

Maybe you could make a case for a Corvidae Plasmatat in Zone Mortalis, but he would have to stand still with good Line of Sight, which means he's exposed to getting shot by what comes around the corner. If the plasma pistols are in range, the Moritat is too. So you'd have to give him a Destroyer Squad for ablative wounds. Expensive.

 

Double edit: Oh you were asking about fluff. Go for it. Only Salamanders completely eschewed them as far as I'm aware.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Nusquam

[Sonoftherubric21]

Zardu Ly-whatever from Word Bearers is the same wording, and confirmed by FW to be able to individually chose powers IIRC.

 

This is sadly incorrect; Zardu Layak may ROLL on those lores, he must roll on lores, he cannot choose the powers he wants. (I made a mental note of that after someone *I really dont recall who* posted a message from forgeworld stating he cant pick, he must roll on those lores. 

[Nusquam]

It says "... may select powers..." in the recent red book. Looking at it right now.

[Gawain Veteris]

 

Zardu Ly-whatever from Word Bearers is the same wording, and confirmed by FW to be able to individually chose powers IIRC.

 

This is sadly incorrect; Zardu Layak may ROLL on those lores, he must roll on lores, he cannot choose the powers he wants. (I made a mental note of that after someone *I really dont recall who* posted a message from forgeworld stating he cant pick, he must roll on those lores. 

 

 

 

One wonders if this will be addressed in the FAQ. My quibble with the wording is only a problem because Prosperine Lore gives all Sons access to all Disciplines (except Mal. Daemonology). If the rule had said something like 'They may choose only from Pyro/Tel.' then there would be no ambiguity, (except insofar as whether they have to roll or not, but a gentlemage would do the decent thing and roll for their powers) but it seems together with PLore that (if your position is correct, sonoftherubric21) Sekhmet Terminators know all the disciplines but are nevertheless blocked from all but two. I struggle with that interpretation.

     I doubt that they would go that far to theme the Sekhmet around the more destructive disciplines. I mean if that were the intent then wouldn't we see Ahriman only having Corvidae themed powers? RAW I'm tempted (by totally not dark powers) to hope the Sekhmet are so obcessed with Pyro/Tel that they can just do them. 

 

 

Separate problem which you guys may have some opinion on:

 

Cult Arcana mandates that compulsory troops in the force must be the same Cult as the Warlord. My question is, if Amon Magistus is both Corvidae and Athanean, do his compulsory troops get both or do they have to pick one only? 

 

(Also, can't wait to model Amon Magistus's Armour of Shades!!! Thousand Son appearing to disappear into smoke will be a fun challenge.)

Edited February 9, 2017 by Gawain Veteris

[Sonoftherubric21]

It says "... may select powers..." in the recent red book. Looking at it right now.

 

I remember seeing a Forgeworld post that was something to the effect of "he rolls powers from the lore"

 

Damn you Forgeworld for having badly emphasized wording! 

 

For Amon; bare in mind that HE is both cults, but there is no express rule saying "a single unit may have 2 cults" therefore I draw the conclusion that his troops may be EITHER Athenaen or Corvidae. 

 

Makes it a nice choice for them should he take a rite allowing vets / termies they may be Athenan or corivdae (useful choices)

Edited February 9, 2017 by Sonoftherubric21

[Gawain Veteris]

 

Sonoftherubric21

 

For Amon; bare in mind that HE is both cults, but there is no express rule saying "a single unit may have 2 cults" therefore I draw the conclusion that his troops may be EITHER Athenaen or Corvidae. 

 

Makes it a nice choice for them should he take a rite allowing vets / termies they may be Athenan or corivdae (useful choices)

 

That is certainly true. Having a tiny bit more flexibility on the cult of your compulsory troops is valuable. Amon seems to be a very economical but dynamic character for what you get. I'm entertaining modelling some scouts to be Ammitara Intercessors just to buff his covert vibe (but also because they turn my abundant carapace armour bits into psychic sniper reroll spam...)

[Nusquam]

The inverse is that there is no rule covering when your warlord has two. There is no rule that gives you permission to choose. The only rule is they must match. Which might mean that you get two on the troops.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Nusquam

[Gawain Veteris]

The inverse is that there is no rule covering when your warlord has two. There is no rule that gives you permission to choose. The only rule is they must match. Which might mean that you get two on the troops.

 

Immune to Fear, Adamantine Will and reroll 1s when shooting (after being stationary) for any compulsory troops. An appealing thought...

[Sonoftherubric21]

The inverse is that there is no rule covering when your warlord has two. There is no rule that gives you permission to choose. The only rule is they must match. Which might mean that you get two on the troops.

 

I dont think so judging by how the rule works RAW, but as we know RAW from Forgeworld can be hard to interpret (which is funny when you think about it) 

 

I will play it as you pick one just to be fair, though it *also* makes sense that a unit could feasibly mix cults as they do in the fluff. 

 

Side note; Anyone thinking about sticking the Khenetai blade occult squad with 9-10 in a Land raider, either an IC or a Apothecary with them?  they can take it as a dedicated transport, and I see possibility in that.  A Dreadclaw is a more economical option point wise but the extra Las-cannons cant hurt. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

 

Sonoftherubric21

 

For Amon; bare in mind that HE is both cults, but there is no express rule saying "a single unit may have 2 cults" therefore I draw the conclusion that his troops may be EITHER Athenaen or Corvidae. 

 

Makes it a nice choice for them should he take a rite allowing vets / termies they may be Athenan or corivdae (useful choices)

 

That is certainly true. Having a tiny bit more flexibility on the cult of your compulsory troops is valuable. Amon seems to be a very economical but dynamic character for what you get. I'm entertaining modelling some scouts to be Ammitara Intercessors just to buff his covert vibe (but also because they turn my abundant carapace armour bits into psychic sniper reroll spam...)

 

 

funny enough I really don't understand why Forgeworld went with that crazy name when int he novels they have always just been referred to as "the hidden ones".... coulda done that for a far easier list :p 

 

And they are supposed to work together, Amon was captain of the 9th company, Hidden Ones were actually from the 9th company (it was the scout company for the 1k sons)  So you can surmise "order of the Blind" was more then likely majority covert ops/scouts/infiltration.  Makes sense he is synergistic with them.  

[Athrawes]

 

The inverse is that there is no rule covering when your warlord has two. There is no rule that gives you permission to choose. The only rule is they must match. Which might mean that you get two on the troops.

 

I dont think so judging by how the rule works RAW, but as we know RAW from Forgeworld can be hard to interpret (which is funny when you think about it) 

 

I will play it as you pick one just to be fair, though it *also* makes sense that a unit could feasibly mix cults as they do in the fluff. 

 

Side note; Anyone thinking about sticking the Khenetai blade occult squad with 9-10 in a Land raider, either an IC or a Apothecary with them?  they can take it as a dedicated transport, and I see possibility in that.  A Dreadclaw is a more economical option point wise but the extra Las-cannons cant hurt. 

 

 

 

I've actually played two games with them now. One with a Land Raider and one with a Dreadclaw, and I can't help but feel that the Dreadclaw is a better option.

 

Not just based on cost, but based on where the Blades excel.

 

They are great at killing 3+ saves targets, but due to their lack of 2+ armor, or the ability to reliably deal with 2+ saves, they are really not a unit I want driving up the table aimed at my opponents dedicated close combat units. Either he'll move his vulnerable units out of the way, or throw a terminator unit at you to shred your expensive assault unit.

 

In my view, where they excel is at Rapier, and heavy/special weapon team hunting. Those can usually be found in an opponents backfield, not easily reached with a Land Raider driving up the board. But a Dreadclaw can drop your blades right in the middle of your opponents backfield, or drop it somewhere even safer from interceptor fire and then flat out to your target. 

 

To contrast, throwing them in a Land Raider really limits their chance of intercepting one of their preferred targets, and increases their likelihood of being intercepted by units with 2+ saves, and ap 3 weapons.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Athrawes

[Nusquam]

 

The inverse is that there is no rule covering when your warlord has two. There is no rule that gives you permission to choose. The only rule is they must match. Which might mean that you get two on the troops.

 

I dont think so judging by how the rule works RAW, but as we know RAW from Forgeworld can be hard to interpret (which is funny when you think about it) 

 

I will play it as you pick one just to be fair, though it *also* makes sense that a unit could feasibly mix cults as they do in the fluff.

 

Thats exactly how permissive rules work. We have one rule that tells us we must match the warlord. We do not have permission to choose between two cults if there are two cults on the warlord or what to do if there are two. Thus we cannot choose and we are forced to get both.

[Withershadow]

Which is not an option, so you either use a modicum of common sense and just pick one, or you cannot field Amon at all because no troops can take 2 cults.

 

And anyway, I think we are being far too pedantic here, a Corvidae unit DOES have the same Cult as a Corvidae/Athenean HQ.  It doesn't say "all of the same cults", after all.

[Nusquam]

Which is not an option,

 

It's true that it is not an option, because we can't choose. We have no rule that allows us to choose in case of multiples. This doesn't itself generate new rules. The entirety of the steps for matching Arcana to the warlord are two fold:

1. Choose Arcana for Warlord
2. Compulsory Troops must use the same Arcana

That is the 100% of the entirety of what we can and cannot do. There is no "if there are two Arcana" line or rule that would allows us to choose. That's it. No other rules interaction. No "units may only ever have one Arcana", just that when you choose from the Cult Arcana it can only be one. Step one and two. The problem is that the word Arcana is plural. Which in rules like this would cover both multiple and single instances.

 

you cannot field Amon at all because no troops can take 2 cults.

 

There's nothing preventing us from fielding him in this manner.

 

And anyway, I think we are being far too pedantic here, a Corvidae unit DOES have the same Cult as a Corvidae/Athenean HQ.  It doesn't say "all of the same cults", after all.

 

Arcana is the plural word of arcanum, however I personally can get behind this from a "FW goof'd again." perspective. In similar rulesets if something need to be X and it is both X and Y it is still considered X, but that is an explicit core game rule like in MTG. Warhammer does not have such a rule, but they did FAQ something like that in the case of mixed squads and interactions with rules like Preferred Enemy in the recent FAQs. So while there is absolutely no RAW that would allow us to choose in the case of Amon being a warlord, we can draw parallels between similar interactions and then it's up to us to accept or reject.

 

From a personal standpoint, I'm never going to use Amon so it won't matter to me. And I'd let an opponent do it either way. The buffs are not good enough with Corvidae and Athanean for me to worry. Fear is terrible anyway. I'd never take psykers against other TS unless it was an event where I happen to be playing TS. Even then it's only good against WB/Daemons and that's going to be a mess no matter what. Amon can't be the Warlord in the Crimson RoW so the only compulsory troops he would affect are tacs, breachers, and AMs. Rerolling ones if you stand still is only going to be good on Tac marines or maybe breachers but IF do it better with flat BS5 on bolters. So in the grand scheme of things, it's negligible. What you really care about having the arcana on you can choose anyway.

[Withershadow]

Arcana being a plural is irrelevant, the core word is "Cult." Cult Arcana. Cult of Magics, singular.  I think this is too minute a point to argue for FW to even bother addressing it. "You must select one of the Cult Arcana"...."Compulsory troops must use the same Arcana as the compulsory HQ/warlord". Seems clear, but whatever I guess.

 

Amon can run Pride of the Legion, and take Corvidae Veterans (same as Ahriman).

Edited February 9, 2017 by Withershadow

[Nusquam]

I forgot about pride of the legion, but it still requires the unit to stand still. Wouldn't be bad on Vets with sniper if you camp on objectives, but again IF have flat BS5 bolters. So you'd have to take something that makes the reroll of one while stationary good. Which are combi plas or melta. Not bad, expensive but not bad. Competes with sniper flamers though. But you could add ML1 to them and twinlink them and have a shot at ignores cover. A wash on the first and gamble on the latter.

 

Immune to Fear and Adamantium Will are still far too niche.

 

It won't matter much unless you're fighting WB/Daemons while using Amon to run Pride of the Legion and using combi-weapons on vet tacs for having both arcana. That's the best example of maximum gains by having the two arcana. Hardly game breaking. Then even if you had to choose you'd just pick the best for the situation anyway, which is going to be Corvidae most of the time.

[Sonoftherubric21]

I forgot about pride of the legion, but it still requires the unit to stand still. Wouldn't be bad on Vets with sniper if you camp on objectives, but again IF have flat BS5 bolters. So you'd have to take something that makes the reroll of one while stationary good. Which are combi plas or melta. Not bad, expensive but not bad. Competes with sniper flamers though. But you could add ML1 to them and twinlink them and have a shot at ignores cover. A wash on the first and gamble on the latter.

 

Immune to Fear and Adamantium Will are still far too niche.

 

It won't matter much unless you're fighting WB/Daemons while using Amon to run Pride of the Legion and using combi-weapons on vet tacs for having both arcana. That's the best example of maximum gains by having the two arcana. Hardly game breaking. Then even if you had to choose you'd just pick the best for the situation anyway, which is going to be Corvidae most of the time.

 

I suppose its worth pointing out that the actual statistical difference between Imperial Fists and Corivdae bolters is almost entirely negligible. 

 

The difference is a matter of about 4-5% points, hitting on BS 5 is 84% accuracy, hitting on a 3+, re-rolling 1's is about 78-79% (just shy of 80%) factoring for the re-roll.  

So unless you are rolling in batches of 100 the actual difference is minor in standard games, and we get access to Shred bolters on termies/vets so that certainly helps even more to even the odds a bit. 

 

To say nothing of; we get more flexibility with our troops being able to pick cults and Psykers being included in an easy-access manner. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

 

The inverse is that there is no rule covering when your warlord has two. There is no rule that gives you permission to choose. The only rule is they must match. Which might mean that you get two on the troops.

 

I dont think so judging by how the rule works RAW, but as we know RAW from Forgeworld can be hard to interpret (which is funny when you think about it) 

 

I will play it as you pick one just to be fair, though it *also* makes sense that a unit could feasibly mix cults as they do in the fluff. 

 

Side note; Anyone thinking about sticking the Khenetai blade occult squad with 9-10 in a Land raider, either an IC or a Apothecary with them?  they can take it as a dedicated transport, and I see possibility in that.  A Dreadclaw is a more economical option point wise but the extra Las-cannons cant hurt. 

 

 

 

I've actually played two games with them now. One with a Land Raider and one with a Dreadclaw, and I can't help but feel that the Dreadclaw is a better option.

 

Not just based on cost, but based on where the Blades excel.

 

They are great at killing 3+ saves targets, but due to their lack of 2+ armor, or the ability to reliably deal with 2+ saves, they are really not a unit I want driving up the table aimed at my opponents dedicated close combat units. Either he'll move his vulnerable units out of the way, or throw a terminator unit at you to shred your expensive assault unit.

 

In my view, where they excel is at Rapier, and heavy/special weapon team hunting. Those can usually be found in an opponents backfield, not easily reached with a Land Raider driving up the board. But a Dreadclaw can drop your blades right in the middle of your opponents backfield, or drop it somewhere even safer from interceptor fire and then flat out to your target. 

 

To contrast, throwing them in a Land Raider really limits their chance of intercepting one of their preferred targets, and increases their likelihood of being intercepted by units with 2+ saves, and ap 3 weapons.

 

 

Well sir; you have just sold me on a Dreadclaw....I never actually considered that, very very true. 

 

My company is themed after a "seige" style company, and getting a dedicated transport land raider on top of my heavy slots would be useful, but that dreadclaw option you laid out sounds pretty fantastic and very very useful. 

 

apply 10 Blade Occult to face; anything NOT in terminator armor will be shredded completely. 

 

What do you think of 9+ apothecary? as opposed to 10 flat from the unit, or 9+IC?  All sound like decent options, but with only a 3+ save + Cult dedication to determine unit options it is a tough choice (Id go Pavoni or Pyrae on them almost every time, Pyrae for dealing with mobs or large units, biomancy for the extra run/sweeping distance + Biomancy roll.....abuse brotherhood of Psykers on a 10 man unit...yikes) 

[Mango Polo]

The extra advantage of the dreadclaw is that you will know which power your Khenetai have rolled before they drop down.

Biomancy with Iron Arm? Go after a Sv2+ deathstar. Warp Speed? Go for a multi assault. Otherwise target whatever suits you.

[Withershadow]

So brotherhood of psykers... seems like a long-running never-resolved rules quandary. Either IC psykers are treated as a separate entity when joining a brotherhood, or they are subsumed and count as part of the brotherhood and lose their mastery level.

[Athrawes]

Deciding weather to give the Blades an Apothecary is a tough choice. (I assume we're going to be sticking them in a transport that limits capacity size to 10)*

 

On the one hand 9 Blades and an Apothecary still place you in the best tier of buffs for "Mindsong of Blades" but you only have to lose model to drop down a tier, so you better hope that the squad your charging doesn't have a character with higher initiative than you.

 

Even still, I'm probably in favor of giving them an Apothecary, the 5+ FnP helps negate their lack of 2+ armor or Invulnerable save.

 

But most importantly,

 

Remember, a FnP roll is the only kind of save psykers can get if they fail a perils of the Warp test. And considering how devastating "Signs & Portents" can potentially be if you lose a wound to Perils, Apothecaries seem like a must for Psychic units as they now have they duel utility.

 

*In larger points games you can get the best of Both worlds and stick a full squad  + Apothecary in a Kharybdis or a Storm eagle.

[jgascoine011]

Ok, so after reading through the rules some more I think that you really only have 3 choices for fluffy lists using the ROW.

 

1) Axis of Dissolution (Probably the worst ROW out of all the legions)

The only was I could see this work is if you took:

Praetor - ML3, 2+/3++ using either biomancy or teleknsis

10 TS Terminators - ML2, 2+/3++ with levetation and something else

2 Apothecaries

2 units of 20 Breachers inside Spartans

 

The whole point of this ROW is to be really hard to kill, while sitting on objectives. If they charge you, you are meant to win in combat, force them to run away then shoot them in the back with re-rolls to hit and wound.

The problem with this is that if you want to run big blobs of infantry in Land Raiders then you are better playing World Eaters

 

 

2) Crimson King

Lets be honest, the only reason you would ever take this ROW is if you are running magnus

So you would take either Magnus and/or a Praetor with ML3, 3++, depending on points

10 TS Terminators - ML2, 2+/3++ with levitation and objuration

5 TS Terminators - ML2, 2+/3++, combi-meltas, chain-fists levitation and objuration

2 units of TS Ammatara - ML2 (This just give you even more power dice)

Then whatever anti-tank you can fit into the points

 

Deep strike in the 5 man terminator squad, levitate to get close to enemy tanks, use objuration from both squads to strip off hullpoints, then fire combi-meltas  

You now have a 2W, 5 man terminator squad with 2+/3++, re-rolling 1's, good luck killing those.

Also, outside of really fluffy lists, this is the only time Ammataras should be taken, sniper vets are just much more flexible.

 

 

3) Pride of the Legion

This is without a doubt the most competitive RoW 

Arhiman and/or Amon

10 TS Terminators

2 units of 10 Sniper Veterans with shred ammo and ML1 - divination

10 Heavy Weapon squad with Volkites, for 40 shots, 60" Range, S6, Re-roll to hit, Ignore cover shots, and possibly rending....loool

Fill the rest of points with tanks/drednoughts/Quad Mortars

 

 

 

If you wanted to take the Kheneti then put them in a Anvillus Drop Pod and always run biomancy

I cant see much point to these guys, unless you face mechanicum or 40k Tyranids though, still if you do face these guys and you roll Iron Arm, then put on your best troll face.

 

 

The TS dreadnought is only really a fluffy choice but could be added to any of those lists

But if you do take him then roll on telepathy and hope for invisibility, and if not then Psychic shriek is always good