[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[Volth]

 

Boom.

 

[..]

 

Space Wolves.

 

• Shock assault
• Search and destroy
• Pursuit operations
• Punitive and excoriation campaigns
• "brutally swift"
• "a shock-assault force as well as tireless pursuers and a peerless hunter-killer force"
• "its campaigns unsubtle, but brutally swift"
• "Conditioned to hold a near-suicidal disregard for danger"
• "a force that has honed in battle against [..] their own wayward brothers"

 

Aside from what is to come by official ruling, let's talk about the fluffside of tactics. To me the tactics that suit the Space Wolves' style of warfare best are as follows:

 

Seeker-squads Sounds like they are made for the Space Wolves. I wouldn't be surprised if we got our own special unit substitution for seekers. They are the most "search and destroy" units the Crusade Legions army list has to offer.

 

Drop-pods/airborne transportation "Suicidal" dropping into the heat and punishing precisely what has to be gone. Like a Wolf. Caestus, Storm Eagles, Spartans delivering pain exactly where it has to be applied.

 

Fast units Continueing the above .. either by means of transports or wargear like bikes or jump packs our units should be fast straight where their force is to be applied.

 

Anti-MEq This is another thing Space Wolves are about. Following dissidents. So let's bring squads designed to counter marines. By this I mean AP<3 ..

 

Unit size Holding the line or win by attrition ..this is not the way of an execution force. So small veteran squads maybe fit more than large tactical blobs. Or don't they?

 

I'd think more of a pack mentality would be there too, so 20 strong ccw BP and bolter armed squads wouldn't look all that out of place as a core

 

small units of Veterans are cool and can fit the SW fluff, but just don't run small squads for the sake of being small. Carefully consider the implications of such a squad size and give them the proper upgrades.

 

No artillery As above. Artillery is cumbersome, cannot be deployed swiftly and has its place in attrition based warfare.

 

Also: Furious charge over Stubborn.

 

 

Those are the basic principles I design my army around. Feel free to object or chime in. What is your vision of heresy-era Space Wolves and their tactics right now?

Edited December 8, 2015 by Volth

[Charlo]

You could probably use SoH or WE for a decent count as if not!

 

Or RG to represent an ambush force!

[Hrolf the Cunning]

With the relative lack of solid information that we have so far I think you've got a great framework. There nothing there that is too outrageous and can from a gaming standpoint, it can be constructed within the confines of the existing list options. Nice work

[Volth]

You could probably use SoH or WE for a decent count as if not!

 

Or RG to represent an ambush force!

 

 

Personally I like it better to stick to the generic list though. It feels kinda cheap using another legions special rules ..

 

But I definitely argree that they are all decent substitutes to represent a force of SW. Especially SoH fit my image of a SW strike force very well. Their advantage both in deploying reserves and close combat are very handy to get in an airborne force. Combine that with a strike team of Seekers plus augury arrayed Proteus. There you have something like a fierce recon team, detecting the target and calling in the execution force ..oh fck cheapness I am going with SoH!

[helterskelter]

I'd think more of a pack mentality would be there too, so 20 strong ccw BP and bolter armed squads wouldn't look all that out of place as a core (heck with the rules might even get lucky and have the ccw free) ( also might end up being compulsory one of the troops might have to be plus sized as their RoW tax)

This then backed up by your ideas in the OP and the wolves would be ace

[GreyCrow]

@Volth : I don't want to sound critical, I actually salute the intent of trying to fir the fluff with the playstyle, but I really fear that you might overlook some tactical facts based on 40k game mechanics trying to fit the fluff. I say that because that's a mistake I made when first getting into Raven Guard in 40k (and whether it's 30 or 40k doesn't change anything : the core mechanics are still there), trying to fit my own interpretation of the fluff into game mechanics and getting my butt promptly handed to me by lists that actually took the reality of the mechanics into account while I wasn't

 

The main point that got me to think that :

 

 

Small units Holding the line or win by attrition ..this is not the way of an execution force. So small veteran squads fit more than large tactical blobs.

 

Small units is a very, very dangerous path to follow because it's more fluff justification than actual game-mechanical efficiency. Being a d6 based game, Warhammer 40k has an equal distribution of probability per individual die rolled (each facing has a 16.67% chance of popping). The only exception is Leadership tests which use a 2d6 basis, meaning that the distribution is a Bell Curve over a straight line. How does this relate to the veteran squads you were talking about ?

Simply put, an individual Veteran with the Sniper rule has got as much chances to roll a 6 than he has to roll a 1 on his shooting/wounding roll. On the other hand, the larger the unit, the more Bell like the distribution will be when it comes to successes, because a 10 men unit has got more opportunities (by having more dice) to roll success than a 5 men unit does. The larger the number of dice rolled, the higher the predictability of the outcome will be, because the probability distribution will tend to peak towards the average result. As a side note, this is what makes rerolls so powerful in this game, because it offers both the ability to mitigate a roll below the average as well as aim for a roll higher than the average because you essentially add one more chance to do the job.

 

Moreover, leaving the Mathhammer and going for more of a tactical consideration, even though MEQ stats are the standard in 30k and seem solid, when you compared it to 40k other basic Troops statline, they aren't that much more solid (compared to a Guardsman, I calculated only 33% more damage against MEQ and about 100% more resilience).

When you actually admit how frails Marines are within the game mechanics and the meta, it's easier to make them last longer by giving squads the proper upgrades (resilience : more bodies or a transport shell).

 

Finally, consider the relative unit size in 30k compared to 40k. The min squad size from the compulsory Troops choices is 10 men. And due to the anti-MEQ tools available to Heresy lists (ahem, Executionners, Plasma Support/Heavy Support squads), 10 Marines die pretty quickly (hence why they largely benefit from a dedicated transport in the form of Rhinos).

 

____

 

In the end, my point is : yes small units of Veterans are cool and can fit the SW fluff, but just don't run small squads for the sake of being small. Carefully consider the implications of such a squad size and give them the proper upgrades.

Edited December 8, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Volth]

I'm totally with you there. More bodies is always better. If you load up too much on upgrades and forget about numbers your force gets easily crippled. As you're saying - the "small units" paradigm has to be considered carefully. In 30k you get the extra harsh treatment by paying heavily for MSU: Two units of 20 Tacs is 500 points. Divided in four units that's plus 100! Take Vets instead and your body count is cut in half! On top of the cost MSU relies on redundancy. While Max Tac is a weight on its own, a Max Vet will usually need a rhino and should either double up or have another substitute. In the end it's about getting the job done. And the cheapest way is usually the competetive one. So small units of Vets, they should be geared for a task which is so special there is no (cheaper) substitute, and they must be mobile while still having some form of resilience - which would either be redundancy (double up in Rhinos), heavy transportation (Land Raider +) or a more or less relieable strike from reserves (Drop Pod, deepstrike, outflank). Last but not least, there is helterskelter's statement about pack mentality of the SW which I definitely agree upon.

 

 

On fluff 'n' tactics itself. I think to successfully built an army you like to play it has to be competetive, but not to the extreme, and thematic, but not to the insane. ( ) That's maybe just a personal thing and shouldn't be overly generalized. But as the initial thought of the thread is more or less "thematic tactics", I'd like to get back to it. There would be two ways to go. Either toning down a competetive army on a level where it is fluffy and still has punch. Second, realizing by tactics, what it is meant to do. I guess the second would be your approach, GreyCrow.

 

 

Also thanks for pointing out how the larger dice count makes for the more predictable outcome. This is so simple, but somehow I never thought at the bigger picture. This really is a considerable step in the evolution of my mathhammer.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Volth

[Hesh Kadesh]

Why on earth would you spend 600pts on Bolters? Would you rather thave that, or ~5 Predator tanks.

[Volth]

I get your point, but this example was just chosen to compare costs of Tacs and Vets and to display the cost of MSU. I wouldn't field four Tac squads either.

 

But now that you are asking ..you need to have troop selections, right? Then it's four scoring units versus no scoring unit. Very situational, but 40 wounds in four units versus 15 structure points in three units. Predators have the edge of quality shooting though.

[helterskelter]

3 plasma executioner preds can tear holes in troops, or 3 Magna melta preds. The disadvantage of the latter however is the short range, but blobs of troops/small squads are very much at risk all the same. Within your army you should always have something to deal with most outcomes (joys of playing legion, we all get the same and we all play different).

A flare shielded spartan will keep those 20 guys nice and safe and still have some oomf behind it to pop a predator or 2 in the course of a game. And I think that would still fit in with the wolves theme (land based long boat. Hells yeah)

[Memento Of Prospero]

From what's been written about them so far, the wolves seem to shy away from mech and focus more on bodies. Which can account for the fact that they are a relatively small legion, as these tactics would increase their attrition rate.

[Tychii]

To the original poster:

I don't believe, that the space wolves will get any special ap3 access that the other legions don't have. Would really make any sense considering the fluff.

 

The free close combat weapon part will be added to their special units in sure as most other special units already have this sort of equipment.

 

No artillery doesn't really apply to the wolves either. Your wolves sound to me like the scars to be honest.

 

Honestly I don't really know how they will make the wolves distinct. Their war tactics to me mostly involve overwhelming force. They aren't a scalpel like force. They are more feral and ferocious then the other legions. They apply overwhelming force and power to break down there opponents. the wolves do what is neseccary to complete a goal in a most efficient way.

 

As far as rules go I'm not sure how that would apply. Mixed units perhaps, would be an interesting difference for them.

Maybe after they win a close combat they would gain an additional move of some kind to help them close the distance.

I really hope they don't have actual wolves, even wulfen I would hope they avoid.

 

Overall I'm ber excited to see how the wolves and the thousand sons play, as they are both ones u can't really guess where fw will take them

[Volth]

No artillery doesn't really apply to the wolves either. Your wolves sound to me like the scars to be honest.

 

Please explain some more.

 

Honestly I don't really know how they will make the wolves distinct. Their war tactics to me mostly involve overwhelming force. They aren't a scalpel like force. They are more feral and ferocious then the other legions. They apply overwhelming force and power to break down there opponents. the wolves do what is neseccary to complete a goal in a most efficient way.

 

I thought a while about this. If you mean overkill by 'overwhelming force' I agree. But as the Space Wolves are one of the smallest legions I assume they rely on precision strikes and not killing spree. I imagine them as cunning hunters who attack the vulnerable spots of their targets and shatter them immediately. This is arguing about personal interpretation, though, and I surely don't intend to marginalize yours.

 

I'm curious. How would a force of say 2500 points dedicated to the Space Wolves' theme look like to you?

[Caillum]

I believe they are one of the smallest Legions due to the heavy losses taken in their style of warfare, i.e. overwhelming force.

[Tychii]

I think we are saying the same thing really :).

My examples would be that they destroyed a moon to have the chunks fly down and annihilate a capital city once. It was that or a space station I can't recall.

There is also the point about ruses personality matching with the legion. At nikea I believe it was Ahriman saying, he met fulgrim and could see that he was eyeing him out to see the best in him and could see all his strengths. While with russ he could tell russ was eyeing him immediately discerning his weaknesses so best to exploit them.

 

Russ is an attuned killing machine focusing on weak points and possible opportunities then overwhelming them with force.

Battle tactics would be speed matched with forcefulness.

 

Drop pods and transport rushes would be something hint that could work for them, as well as a pinch of infiltration. They would use bolters and bolt pistols to engage then assault.

Only thing is that is common among all the legions really. I would suggest many assault weApons over rapid fire ones.

Umm other then that I'm not sure, im excited for the rules as they will be very interesting I'm sure. Really hope they have Wolfen marines, but also really hope they don't have actual wolves.

[ak1508]

I would imagine they would have bonuses when it comes to melee and perhaps also make it rather difficult to "scare" them. Maybe to represent the Scandinavian or a viking background that was being used to design them, find a good special rule for them that can represent the whole "better to die in battle than run like a coward!" kinda thing. As their special units I would definitely see them having something that will allow them to just drop in in the heat of battle and deliver a lot of melee punishment. 

[Massaen]

I am building my Vlka Fenryka as an orbital assault force at present...

 

Cheap Praetor

2x10 tacticals in pods

1x5 melta support in pod

Contemptor with kheres and grav

Dreadclaw (for contemptor)

Deathstorm pod with krak and DPA

Xiaphon

 

That's 1500 points. What should I add next do you think? I am inclined to grab 2 more pods (single quad mortar in one cause its cheap and then maybe seekers or command squad in the second) and a fire raptor to bring it to 2000.

 

What do you think? I think the drop assault is definitely in theme with the wolves but building the list has been tough!

[Nova_chron]

I'm curious to hear people's opinion on the burning claws and what type of character would you give them to?

[Hesh Kadesh]

A melee one.

[Nova_chron]

Champion or someone else I feel like praetor is better off with a paragon blade but maybe you champion or forge lord would be a good body for this

[depthcharge12]

A melee one.

Hmm, a siege breaker? He has tank Hunter, which, coupled with armorbane, might be interesting.

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

A melee one.

Hmm, a siege breaker? He has tank Hunter, which, coupled with armorbane, might be interesting.

Not really considered that, but Meltabombs bring AP1 and S8, which are cheaper and preferential at the expense of less attacks. Forge Lord brings Rad Nades on Furious Charge, but unless it is AP2, it is a limitation.

[depthcharge12]

 

 

A melee one.

Hmm, a siege breaker? He has tank Hunter, which, coupled with armorbane, might be interesting.

Not really considered that, but Meltabombs bring AP1 and S8, which are cheaper and preferential at the expense of less attacks. Forge Lord brings Rad Nades on Furious Charge, but unless it is AP2, it is a limitation.

Well it's just something to consider. I mean you get like what 4 armorbane tank Hunter hits? Sure it's not the strength of a Melta bomb, but on a good day, you should be able to glance something to death, plus have an AP 3 weapon with master crafted. Oh, and phosphex bombs. Can't forget that preferred fragrance of Captain Kilgore.

 

 

Edit: ooooh I forgot, give the Vlyka Fenrika the Furious charge LA special rule too. Now it's S5, master crafted, tank Hunter, armorbane, shred lightning claws on a WS5 character.

Edited December 27, 2015 by depthcharge12

[Nova_chron]

Yeah I'm on the fence between raven guard or vylka fenryka guess I'll have to wait for rules to drop for the wolves only thing that has me on them is a extensive wolves collection already with a good chunk still on sprue

[Volth]

Since SW will have to pass on some units, how do you build and stock up your armies? Currently I am slowly building a squad of 10 breachers and 20 tacs even though I'm not exactly optimistic I'll be using them once our legion rules hit.