[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[sturguard]

I think the legion termies with a speaker arent bad. I mean you'll have WS5 on the charge, counter attack, preferred enemy infantry (for close combat and combi plasmas), FnP, once per game reroll charges- not to mention the squad would get to reroll failed deny the witch (which wont generally come into play except 1K Sons).

 

Now if they change the rules in 8th so that you can charge from outflank, our GSs would be in business.

[RedwaKe]

I feel like we really got the short end of the stick out of Inferno. I mean, how can Varagyr be more expensive than Sekhmet who have 2w and can use their psychic powers to move 12 inches and throw S10 pie plate and be good enough in close combat to probably at least bring the varagyr with them in the grave if they fight each other.

 

We are an assault legion with rules to reflect that but we have some overpriced subpar special units who just can't justify the purchase of expensive assault transport.

 

I just can't see how I can win agaisnt my buddy's TS (who plays a least 2 squads of sekhmet) without playing a generic flavourless shooting heavy legion astartes list.. Even his HQ (ml3 biomancy praetor with 3++ save) can easily beat mine in a duel. I feel like the only way of having the upper hand in close combat is including Russ which I won't allways do.

 

Sorry for being a little whiny, I'm usually not this kind of guy but I felt like sharing my thought this time.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I will start with an allied detachment and go from there. I'm getting ready for a move across the country so it could be a couple months before I start playing 30k Space Wolves... can't wait and from what I've heard the community is strong there. I'm planning to play a heavy assault army with some dreadnaughts. I'll start crafting some lists as soon as BS supports the rules. Edited February 17, 2017 by Black Orange

[Lord Blackwood]

Playing with Russ is entirely feasible if you want to use the points on him. He has the same issues as the other innately immobile prinarchs but if you have a way to get him into CC he is going to do work against most things.

 

I personally will be including him in my lists though obviously that is a stylistic choice more than anything else.

 

How To Get Russ into CC that is an interesting question to pose here.

 

The way I look at it there are two methods with thier own innate weaknesses and strengths.

 

I will be ignoring anything that doesn't ensure a turn 2 charge because honestly anything that fails to get Russ at his target by turn two is a waste of points.

 

There is the Spartan and Raider method

 

There is the Dreadclaw and Khrybdis method

 

 

I feel like the dreadclaw / kharybdis method is the best bet. Terminators can fit in there with him if you take a terminator command squad And while not as hardy as a spartan can be deployed a bit safer.

 

The Spartan / raider set up will likely be the favored way in stuff like armored breakthrough and spearhead.

 

 

If you intend on running the prinarch how are you getting him into CC and why do you reckon that is the best way.

 

Also what a riding with him ?

Edited February 17, 2017 by Bladewolf

[Withershadow]

Do you really need Terminators to go along with him? Drop him in there by himself! Treat him as a Leviathan-style distraction Carnifex. I feel the Primarch + combat dudes is a trap of a lot of points invested in a super killy unit that overkills nearby targets and then is easily avoided. Leman Russ can solo most things. Maybe take his dogs and stuff them in the dreadclaw with him, and just cut loose.

[Caillum]

#primarchinapod #plusthepuppies

[Lord Blackwood]

So you would advocate Russ + Wolfkin in a Dreadclaw intent on coming down turn 2 along with maybe 2 leviathan dreadnoughts and a unit of veterans ? 

[Runefyre]

That's a strangely attractive idea.

[Dantay VI]

I will start with an allied detachment and go from there. I'm getting ready for a move across the country so it could be a couple months before I start playing 30k Space Wolves... can't wait and from what I've heard the community is strong there. I'm planning to play a heavy assault army with some dreadnaughts. I'll start crafting some lists as soon as BS supports the rules.

Do you mean using Sw's as the allied detachment or uisng allies with the SW's?

 

If the forr it would be a good way to get into them, if the latter then its a bit garbage if Space Wolves must rely on allies to make a decent competitive list

[Coptimas]

I gave examples why the Terminators are better.

 

Dedicated Fast skimmer, assaul vehicle, with drop pod assault

 

Built in Invuln save

 

Implaccable advance

 

But there are more.

 

Relentless combi-weapons being one of the big ones considering how light we are on anti-tank

 

Your vindicator example is again pretty pointless the Terminators are never in the position where the vindicator has such a prime shot on them. In fact they can deep strike and kill a vindicator with their combi-weapons.

 

But again it misses the point. Deathsworn aren't being billed as out answer to fearless mobs. Grey Slayers do a good enough job managing them. They are supposed to be the answer to real threat units. And, I suppose in some ways they are, they are pretty good at beating up other mediocre combat legion special units like Palantin blades or Templar Brethren. But, I mean... those units are actually combatable with Grey Slayers if you want to invest the same amount of points in Grey Slayers that you are in Deathsworn. You have an idea of where the damage track will run, regardless of the situation, some people think that is worth more points. I personally don't and I'm pretty sure if you take a unit of 5 with a raider or dreadclaw the first time you use Terminators in their place you will drop them too.

 

I'm not typically an "optimist" when evaluating a piece of work I'm always critical because I have to make a purchasing decision. Purchasing Deathsworn or converting them means I'm not purchasing something else. And, while my collection keeps expanding eventually the reality of money takes charge.

 

In place of Deathsworn I actually would have preferred Fenrisian wolves as a Legion unit, their inclusion would have actually gone a long way in making an infantry assault army function. Deathsworn are just a more expensive/reliable version of Grey Slayers, which makes them pointless because I have to take Grey Slayers.

 

Why don't you elaborate on "utilized correctly" means? I have a feeling it means spending an additional 300-500 points on using them.

 

Better at what? Taking drop pods, holding objectives, shooting people? Please don't answer this as you have done a fantastic job of proving my point with your vindicator answer. 20 years of gaming experience and your answer as to why my point is in your words"pointless", which happens wasn't actually my point but someone else i was referencing, was your opponent will never get a prime shot? You never scatter then when deep striking? or your opponent would never have more than one vindicator? Come on old lad seriously, this is your answer. An your wording, "pointless", it's not just the negative attitude to things but your wording and overall approach to your criticisms.  Either way from the continuation of the thread it seems that what I was saying has been understood, so ill leave it there.

 

As to the deathsworn Ill follow on shortly with a unit analysis.

 

Criticism  of a unit for its obvious short comings is not negativity for the sake of negativity. 

 

When we look at something like Grey Slayers ,  Deathsworn or Wolf Guard we look at them in the scope of alternative options in the same list and in other legion lists. 

 

Let me be clear ,  not liking a unit is not tantamount to not liking the legion. 

A great example of this is Phallanx Warders in Imperial Fists lists , they are largely overpriced garbage that  are just ... entirely passable mot of the time. 

 

It is a tactica Thread so we are approaching units from  the idea of  " how can we make this a tactically sound inclusion and what will it take to get them there. " 

 

Deathsworn in a Raider is a legitimate option ,  Are there counters to it ?  Sure.  In an Armored Breakthrough list where there are problematic battle tanks all over  are those counters going to potentially be used on the  Deathsworn Raider ?  Probably not,  Do I  feel like  they will be worth the points invested when they get there ?  

 

No .   I do not.   Possibly ?  Sure maybe but I doubt it.  

 

Thats not me saying Yea your dumb for taking your army in this direction , or  , the idea of the unit is dumb,  or   even that I am not excited for the bits to come out. 

None of those things are relevant to a tactica thread. 

 

 

 

Criticism of a unit for it's obvious short comings is not what I was referencing, no one wants rose tinted glasses, but good criticism is a constructive and positive opinion and analysis of something, an this wasnt what was happening. 

 

However Ill leave it there. I completely agree with you on "tactically sound inclusion", as to the deathsworn, again ill leave that to a full tactical analysis later.

 

Thanks again both.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

I will start with an allied detachment and go from there. I'm getting ready for a move across the country so it could be a couple months before I start playing 30k Space Wolves... can't wait and from what I've heard the community is strong there. I'm planning to play a heavy assault army with some dreadnaughts. I'll start crafting some lists as soon as BS supports the rules.

 

Do you mean using Sw's as the allied detachment or uisng allies with the SW's?

 

If the forr it would be a good way to get into them, if the latter then its a bit garbage if Space Wolves must rely on allies to make a decent competitive list

I will first build SW as an allied detachment.

 

If I did run Russ I'd take the Wolfkin too... if nothing else they can soak up some wounds.

[Runefyre]

 

 

I will start with an allied detachment and go from there. I'm getting ready for a move across the country so it could be a couple months before I start playing 30k Space Wolves... can't wait and from what I've heard the community is strong there. I'm planning to play a heavy assault army with some dreadnaughts. I'll start crafting some lists as soon as BS supports the rules.

Do you mean using Sw's as the allied detachment or uisng allies with the SW's?

 

If the forr it would be a good way to get into them, if the latter then its a bit garbage if Space Wolves must rely on allies to make a decent competitive list

I will first build SW as an allied detachment.

 

If I did run Russ I'd take the Wolfkin too... if nothing else they can soak up some wounds.

 

Plus look super badass

[Baluc]

Sigh... If you need me to explain why terminators ina dreadclaw aren't as vulnerable to a vindicator template this tactica thread isn't going to go very far. When making a unit comparison "better" means capable of more. I've clearly listed tangible and practical reasons why the standard Legion Terminator unit is "better" you just seem to be resistant to any critisism of anything. I could get more esoteric but the point of the tactica would be lost. The most important reason 5 Terminators in a Dreadclaw are better than Deathsworn is they are massively cheaper. Constructively don't take them, and if you insist on taking them accept that you will have mediocre results. Here is an anecdote for you. You can follow West Ham or you can follow Manchester City, neither choice is a bad one, one team is just more likely to provide a winning experience, and if you are after a winning experience that choice is easy.

 

I seriously don't see the issue here, its not like WE are over in their thread bigging up Rampages or EC talking about Palatine blades for their battlefield prowess. Take those kind of units if you think they look sweet (we have no models), or if the idea is cool (it is). But a tactica is mostly cold, emotionless, how do I kill the enemy, a most fitting mindset for the Rout.

 

Good criticism is correct and provable, and being positive doesn't mean forcing a unit that is provably poor into an army it means offering alternatives. In every war game their are units that miss the mark. Either they are obviously too powerful, or they do a job you can get done by a cheaper unit, or faster unit, etc. We don't have to force Deathsworn into our lists, we can just move on. Could I contrive a situation that Deathsworn would excel over Terminators? Probably. But, other than a thought exercise to mentally prepare myself to build in redundancies it doesn't seem to provide much insight.

[Caillum]

How about this?

 

HQ

Centurion: artificer armour; great frost blade; melta bombs; combat shield 95

The Wolf-kin of Russ xxx

 

TROOPS

10 Grey Slayers: Huscarl (artificer armour; melta bombs); 9 Grey Slayers; legion vexilla 150

• Drop Pod xx

10 Grey Slayers: Huscarl (artificer armour; melta bombs); 9 Grey Slayers; legion vexilla 150

• Drop Pod xx

 

FAST ATTACK

Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod xxx

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

Leviathan Pattern Siege Dreadnought Talon

• Leviathan Pattern Siege Dreadnought: Leviathan siege drill; cyclonic melta lance; armoured ceramite; phosphex discharger 330

• Dreadnought Drop Pod xxx

Leviathan Pattern Siege Dreadnought Talon

• Leviathan Pattern Siege Dreadnought: grav-flux bombard; 2 × torso-mounted twin-linked volkite caliver; armoured ceramite; phosphex discharger 335

• Dreadnought Drop Pod xxx

 

LORDS OF WAR

Leman Russ: Rite of War (Orbital Assault) xxx

 

2,000 points

 

For 2500, add a Speaker of the Dead and 2 more Drop Pod Assault units. At 3000, add some Javelins and a Fire Raptor. Should be fun. :)

[Gorgoff]

Isn't it illegal since you have only one HQ choice in a 2000 points army?

[depthcharge12]

So who wants to go full pants on head crazy and take two 20 man Gray Slayer squads plus their own HQ in two Spartans? :O

 

It'll be like 1000 points of your list plus the HQs, but it'll take care of all your anti infantry and anti tank needs lol. If you can't beat deathstars, swarm them with 40 Grey Slayers tee hee. Then take dreads and preds to fill out the list.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Isn't it illegal since you have only one HQ choice in a 2000 points army?

 

Nah, the Wolf-Kin are a HQ choice. They just don't use up a slot on the FOC.

[Coptimas]

Deathsworn – Elite choice for Vlka Fenryka

 

A combat vet squad equivalent? Replacement for terminators? Or something fluffy, over costed and relegated to basement battles only?

 

Or perhaps none of the above. Deathsworn are unique enough with their rules that there really isn’t an apples for apples comparison to be had. However, if indeed any comparison is to be drawn I think the best comparison of the Deathsworn is to look at them as a command squad alternative, specialized in close quarters battle, although not to accompany your Praetor. If I do drawn comparisons it will be to that type of unit.

 

With a veteran stat line, artificer armour as standard, two close combat weapons and defensive grenades, linked to our legion specific rules we clearly have a unit dedicated to proactively seeking the charge or indeed receiving one. Counter attack and defensive grenades means that other than baseline 3 attack units you will always have more attack dice then a similarly sized squad in the combat with you. You will be fearless and are guaranteed to get those attacks due to the “Dreams of the Deathwolf” special rule, unless all the unit’s members are dead. It’s important to note the “unit” part of the last statement, as this would also mean any attached characters still surviving. Whilst we are on that subject, either Speakers of the Dead or Caster of Runes, or maybe even both should you so desire, can be attached to this unit bringing some quite frankly devastating results which we’ll look at later.

 

Firstly, how is this unit supposed to get into combat? Without going into all the pros and cons of transports dedicated or otherwise the simple answer is…however best suits your play style. The Deathsworn clearly have a penchant for outflanking, with a Land Raider Proteus as a dedicated transport, easy access to outflanking through Red Blade which could mean outflanking dedicated Phobos Raiders or Rhinos, or even good old but in some cases quite risky, footslog. If we look at other transport options without outflanking, should commanders wish to utilise their hotly contested fast attack or heavy support options we also have two winged variety transports in the form of the Caestus, a personal favourite, and the Storm Eagle, both allowing turn two onward deep strikes, giving turn three assaults that as we’ll see could be a victory hidden in plain sight. Pods could also be utilised for turn one pressure, however unless target saturation is also offered up you could regret this. This obviously continues to the bigger options, Spartans, Mastodon and the other LoW super heavies with transport capacity. The Spartan seems a waste to put the Deathsworn in, as even with all the HQ’s you can attach its still only 16 slots filled (3 x priest terminator armour). Obviously footslogging is available, and I hear the crys of “they’re not durable enough” ringing in my ears from my last couple of reads on their abilities, “they lack a ++ save” go the calls of the battle brothers of Fenris and rightly so. Well I will deal with this as they are, not a dream unit of what could of been nice. Without attached characters, or psychic buffs this unit is still in artificer armour. Ap2 shooting is not too hard to find, indeed certain SA tournament spam lists can find it with relative ease and in alarming quantities. But for the rest of us, and the SA army already mentioned surely those shoots should be working on the other threats presented by the competent and deployment savvy commanders out there? Either way it is by far and away the exception to the rule that massed Ap2 shooting will be constantly hitting your Deathsworn from turn 1 onwards. Our Legion rules help massively, with night fight on turn one nearly 50% of the time, and our inherent foot speed further eases this scenario should footslogging be your choice.

 

Another point that should be considered is that although transports can sometimes make you a little quicker aiding in that fast assault and offer you that protective shell, it also takes away from the target saturation by that same rational. Anti armour is a must and seen regularly throughout lists, but is largely wasted when presented with an infantry unit that at best losses two men to a Land Raiders twin Las cannons. Anti armour is of course also where we see the vast majority of Ap2, other than the obligatory plasma specialist squads and combi vets. For less points than the Lander Raider however a Contemptor armed with twin Kheres can be placed near, but not too near said Deathsworn and then your opponent must really think about it. Twelve BS5 rending shots which can hurt anything other than a flare shielded Spartan (front arch only) or your Deathsworn. This makes for an impact on the thought process as opposed to, “just got to crack open that transport”. I’m not saying footslogging is the answer, I’m just saying that transports ain’t always the answer. As fire magnets go, they work, but with the amount of anti armour available, unless a good amount of armour is present in your list, and I really mean armoured breakthrough good amounts, then they can very quickly become 200 plus points of scenery. My point then is, give yourself options, and make your opponent consider theirs. Options leads to good and bad decisions, and if you can manipulate your opponent’s decisions enough that they’re mainly all bad, through deployment, target saturation, high threat units and good use of terrain, well then, you’re on to a flying start.

 

Back to Potential, that dream of your oppositions complete annihilation, of optimism in huge great waves of ecstatic plastic  induced   flowing into one great and all-consuming takes all comers list filled with super units and undefeated Deathstars costing only 200 points! But to be serious, this isn’t 40k and I shall curtail my over exuberance and utter disregard for the current tournament meta and just try to give some positive views on a unit being booked as gaining credit where non is due. As a standard unit without including characters we have options to put melta and rad grenades on it. Always nice as it gives the unit the ability to do something vs the common Contemptor charge situations that this unit is likely to come across regularly as well as hurting those high T Mech units that plague marines so incessantly. Power fists and thunder hammers also mean with the Dreams USR that a further 2 or 3 strength 8 hits, after rolls, will make said units think a bit longer about the possibility that the attacking unit won’t get away scout free should your opponent’s charge happen. An if you’re not really enthused by those options hold the phone, this is the only unit capable of having two GFB’s without attached characters. That’s 8, Ap2 strength 5 attacks which reroll two misses at initiative 3, charging or not. With the charge, they are likely hitting on 3’s, worst case unit to unit 4’s. That will mean roughly that two of your guys just killed 4 legion terminators after average rolls before the rest of your unit strikes at initiative 1 if the Deathsworn get charged. Attach a Speaker of the Dead, an another GFB to change this into, 13 Ap2 strength 5 attacks, re rolling to hit and wound, taking the death toll to 7 dead legion terminators, again before the rest of your unit strikes and when receiving the charge. An bear in mind, so long as the whole unit isn’t wiped out, these kills are still happening, and with the attached SotD the FNP will help to make sure the unit is still in good shape even after a round of shooting.

 

Whilst on the thoughts of attached characters lets not forget the Caster of Runes and the potential for Smite hitting the unit your about to charge, or enfeeble making a mockery of multi wound T 4 units and characters and their near obligatory FNP.

 

Moving on then the lack of invulnerable save will be felt and is something that defines this unit, but as opposed to wishing it had one or forgetting about the unit entirely and taking terminators, think of them exactly as you would any other squishy glass hammer. With all that’s above and the fact they’re fearless in combat and falling back is slowed due to those nasty defensive grenades I think these guys will be winning a whole hell of a lot of combat, so use our +1” consolidation to the max and grab some cover. Speaking of those grenades if it looks like your receiving a charge next turn after exiting a non assault transport, deep striking or outflanking, get one thrown, it’s nasty Ap2 goodness will only ever be a bonus, unless of course it blows up in your hand due to gets hot, but do you care, you’re in artificer armour. Added to which the deep rolling chuckle you will have when the victim unit gets pinned by that same grenade will add a quite nice “thank you very much” feel to the wholesale slaughter that ensues in your next turn of combat.

 

In a nut shell then, aim these guys at your opponent’s deathstar, largest unit or whatever threats you deem appropriate and kill as much as quick as you can. Don’t expect survivors but when you get them, do it again. These guys love to be right there in the thick of your adversary’s army, either via transport or on foot, from outflank or straight up the middle, as close to as much of your enemy’s infantry as possible, much like the rest of the Wolves. Fight with fervor and controlled directed aggression just as intended.

 

I hope this has spurred some thoughts, no doubt I have missed many other options or tactical uses. Some will still say Deathsworn are over costed, taking too much credit for nothing or just don’t like them, an that’s fine and as it should be. But for those that feel that way I really hope they’re those out there that think as I do, that can’t convert, paint and base a squad of these fast enough to give Morkai his due, for Russ and the All Father.

 

Many thanks.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Coptimas

[Purge the Daemon]

Deathsworn – Elite choice for Vlka Fenryka

 

A combat vet squad equivalent? Replacement for terminators? Or something fluffy, over costed and relegated to basement battles only?

 

Or perhaps none of the above. Deathsworn are unique enough with their rules that there really isn’t an apples for apples comparison to be had. However, if indeed any comparison is to be drawn I think the best comparison of the Deathsworn is to look at them as a command squad alternative, specialized in close quarters battle, although not to accompany your Praetor. If I do drawn comparisons it will be to that type of unit.

 

With a veteran stat line, artificer armour as standard, two close combat weapons and defensive grenades, linked to our legion specific rules we clearly have a unit dedicated to proactively seeking the charge or indeed receiving one. Counter attack and defensive grenades means that other than baseline 3 attack units you will always have more attack dice then a similarly sized squad in the combat with you. You will be fearless and are guaranteed to get those attacks due to the “Dreams of the Deathwolf” special rule, unless all the unit’s members are dead. It’s important to note the “unit” part of the last statement, as this would also mean any attached characters still surviving. Whilst we are on that subject, either Speakers of the Dead or Caster of Runes, or maybe even both should you so desire, can be attached to this unit bringing some quite frankly devastating results which we’ll look at later.

 

Firstly, how is this unit supposed to get into combat? Without going into all the pros and cons of transports dedicated or otherwise the simple answer is…however best suits your play style. The Deathsworn clearly have a penchant for outflanking, with a Land Raider Proteus as a dedicated transport, easy access to outflanking through Red Blade which could mean outflanking dedicated Phobos Raiders or Rhinos, or even good old but in some cases quite risky, footslog. If we look at other transport options without outflanking, should commanders wish to utilise their hotly contested fast attack or heavy support options we also have two winged variety transports in the form of the Caestus, a personal favourite, and the Storm Eagle, both allowing turn two onward deep strikes, giving turn three assaults that as we’ll see could be a victory hidden in plain sight. Pods could also be utilised for turn one pressure, however unless target saturation is also offered up you could regret this. This obviously continues to the bigger options, Spartans, Mastodon and the other LoW super heavies with transport capacity. The Spartan seems a waste to put the Deathsworn in, as even with all the HQ’s you can attach its still only 16 slots filled (3 x priest terminator armour). Obviously footslogging is available, and I hear the crys of “they’re not durable enough” ringing in my ears from my last couple of reads on their abilities, “they lack a ++ save” go the calls of the battle brothers of Fenris and rightly so. Well I will deal with this as they are, not a dream unit of what could of been nice. Without attached characters, or psychic buffs this unit is still in artificer armour. Ap2 shooting is not too hard to find, indeed certain SA tournament spam lists can find it with relative ease and in alarming quantities. But for the rest of us, and the SA army already mentioned surely those shoots should be working on the other threats presented by the competent and deployment savvy commanders out there? Either way it is by far and away the exception to the rule that massed Ap2 shooting will be constantly hitting your Deathsworn from turn 1 onwards. Our Legion rules help massively, with night fight on turn one nearly 50% of the time, and our inherent foot speed further eases this scenario should footslogging be your choice.

 

Another point that should be considered is that although transports can sometimes make you a little quicker aiding in that fast assault and offer you that protective shell, it also takes away from the target saturation by that same rational. Anti armour is a must and seen regularly throughout lists, but is largely wasted when presented with an infantry unit that at best losses two men to a Land Raiders twin Las cannons. Anti armour is of course also where we see the vast majority of Ap2, other than the obligatory plasma specialist squads and combi vets. For less points than the Lander Raider however a Contemptor armed with twin Kheres can be placed near, but not too near said Deathsworn and then your opponent must really think about it. Twelve BS5 rending shots which can hurt anything other than a flare shielded Spartan (front arch only) or your Deathsworn. This makes for an impact on the thought process as opposed to, “just got to crack open that transport”. I’m not saying footslogging is the answer, I’m just saying that transports ain’t always the answer. As fire magnets go, they work, but with the amount of anti armour available, unless a good amount of armour is present in your list, and I really mean armoured breakthrough good amounts, then they can very quickly become 200 plus points of scenery. My point then is, give yourself options, and make your opponent consider theirs. Options leads to good and bad decisions, and if you can manipulate your opponent’s decisions enough that they’re mainly all bad, through deployment, target saturation, high threat units and good use of terrain, well then, you’re on to a flying start.

 

Back to Potential, that dream of your oppositions complete annihilation, of optimism in huge great waves of ecstatic plastic induced flowing into one great and all-consuming takes all comers list filled with super units and undefeated Deathstars costing only 200 points! But to be serious, this isn’t 40k and I shall curtail my over exuberance and utter disregard for the current tournament meta and just try to give some positive views on a unit being booked as gaining credit where non is due. As a standard unit without including characters we have options to put melta and rad grenades on it. Always nice as it gives the unit the ability to do something vs the common Contemptor charge situations that this unit is likely to come across regularly as well as hurting those high T Mech units that plague marines so incessantly. Power fists and thunder hammers also mean with the Dreams USR that a further 2 or 3 strength 8 hits, after rolls, will make said units think a bit longer about the possibility that the attacking unit won’t get away scout free should your opponent’s charge happen. An if you’re not really enthused by those options hold the phone, this is the only unit capable of having two GFB’s without attached characters. That’s 8, Ap2 strength 5 attacks which reroll two misses at initiative 3, charging or not. With the charge, they are likely hitting on 3’s, worst case unit to unit 4’s. That will mean roughly that two of your guys just killed 4 legion terminators after average rolls before the rest of your unit strikes at initiative 1 if the Deathsworn get charged. Attach a Speaker of the Dead, an another GFB to change this into, 13 Ap2 strength 5 attacks, re rolling to hit and wound, taking the death toll to 7 dead legion terminators, again before the rest of your unit strikes and when receiving the charge. An bear in mind, so long as the whole unit isn’t wiped out, these kills are still happening, and with the attached SotD the FNP will help to make sure the unit is still in good shape even after a round of shooting.

 

Whilst on the thoughts of attached characters lets not forget the Caster of Runes and the potential for Smite hitting the unit your about to charge, or enfeeble making a mockery of multi wound T 4 units and characters and their near obligatory FNP.

 

Moving on then the lack of invulnerable save will be felt and is something that defines this unit, but as opposed to wishing it had one or forgetting about the unit entirely and taking terminators, think of them exactly as you would any other squishy glass hammer. With all that’s above and the fact they’re fearless in combat and falling back is slowed due to those nasty defensive grenades I think these guys will be winning a whole hell of a lot of combat, so use our +1” consolidation to the max and grab some cover. Speaking of those grenades if it looks like your receiving a charge next turn after exiting a non assault transport, deep striking or outflanking, get one thrown, it’s nasty Ap2 goodness will only ever be a bonus, unless of course it blows up in your hand due to gets hot, but do you care, you’re in artificer armour. Added to which the deep rolling chuckle you will have when the victim unit gets pinned by that same grenade will add a quite nice “thank you very much” feel to the wholesale slaughter that ensues in your next turn of combat.

 

In a nut shell then, aim these guys at your opponent’s deathstar, largest unit or whatever threats you deem appropriate and kill as much as quick as you can. Don’t expect survivors but when you get them, do it again. These guys love to be right there in the thick of your adversary’s army, either via transport or on foot, from outflank or straight up the middle, as close to as much of your enemy’s infantry as possible, much like the rest of the Wolves. Fight with fervor and controlled directed aggression just as intended.

 

I hope this has spurred some thoughts, no doubt I have missed many other options or tactical uses. Some will still say Deathsworn are over costed, taking too much credit for nothing or just don’t like them, an that’s fine and as it should be. But for those that feel that way I really hope they’re those out there that think as I do, that can’t convert, paint and base a squad of these fast enough to give Morkai his due, for Russ and the All Father.

 

Many thanks.

I appreciate the time you took to write this up but a few issues. That multi hero Deathsworn blob racks up points like crazy let's assume we take 8 Deathsworn and 2 characters so they fit into a transport (bare in mind you need 10 Deathsworn for 2 gfb). This unit with a caster a Speaker and 8 Deathsworn will rack you up well over 500 points without a transport.

 

Also whole you say most ap2 is anti tank I've seen plenty of vindicators, phosphex and Medusas which are considered competitive options and they love to hit a 600 points to deathstar that they remove all saves from.

 

Also you are probably better speed bumping an enemy death star then feeding him 1/3 of your list when you actually can't win that combat. The enemy deathstar will have 4++/3++ will have 5+++ might have a primarch level character, and will almost certainly be hitting back with s8 ap2 which means no saves of any kind for us.

 

While they don't have an exact comparison in space wolves let's look at Suzerain who cost the same points and fill the exact same slot and role (but they can also be Troops and score and can join characters). Now you may argue Suzerain are an out lighter because they are very good we can then look at gal vorbak which also are terminator hybrids. Deathsworn are just to expensive for what they can do, maybe you get lucky and you bring the pain but the majority of the time you bounce of an Invulnerable stacked with feel no pain and then get squashed.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Purge the Daemon

[Coptimas]

 

Deathsworn – Elite choice for Vlka Fenryka

 

A combat vet squad equivalent? Replacement for terminators? Or something fluffy, over costed and relegated to basement battles only?

*snip*

I appreciate the time you took to write this up but a few issues. That multi hero Deathsworn blob racks up points like crazy let's assume we take 8 Deathsworn and 2 characters so they fit into a transport (bare in mind you need 10 Deathsworn for 2 gfb). This unit with a caster a Speaker and 8 Deathsworn will rack you up well over 500 points without a transport.

 

Also whole you say most ap2 is anti tank I've seen plenty of vindicators, phosphex and Medusas which are considered competitive options and they love to hit a 600 points to deathstar that they remove all saves from.

 

Also you are probably better speed bumping an enemy death star then feeding him 1/3 of your list when you actually can't win that combat. The enemy deathstar will have 4++/3++ will have 5+++ might have a primarch level character, and will almost certainly be hitting back with s8 ap2 which means no saves of any kind for us.

 

While they don't have an exact comparison in space wolves let's look at Suzerain who cost the same points and fill the exact same slot and role (but they can also be Troops and score and can join characters). Now you may argue Suzerain are an out lighter because they are very good we can then look at gal vorbak which also are terminator hybrids. Deathsworn are just to expensive for what they can do, maybe you get lucky and you bring the pain but the majority of the time you bounce of an Invulnerable stacked with feel no pain and then get squashed.

 

 

Good good, and absolutely right. Most posts that someone puts up with a unit analysis can be picked clean with hard counters and reasons that this or that could and may happen. An comparing the Deathsworn to Suzerain is again a good one, except they are an Ultramarines unit and not subject to us being able to take them in a Space Wolves list. Perhaps ill check the books and work out what a confrontation between an equally pointed Deathsworn vs Suzerains looks like. 

 

My point was a unit analysis, not to say there super awesome, not to say they are an auto include. But to simply make a good account of a unit. I hope that is what I achieved. I love the fact that people will pick it to pieces. There will be those that come to this thread perhaps not knowing about medusa etc etc.

 

Ten Deathsworn kitted and with attached SotD is 465. Also its five models in the squad to take GFB's, so if you took nine with an attached SotD is that not ten models in the squad? not sure with that one, but your probably right.

 

I would state that although medusa and vindicator our used against infantry, they are still anti armour, phosphex fare enough but doesn't negate FNP. The outcome of the same hitting a unit of terminators is, you save one third on average, still a bad day. As for Primarchs is there any other legion unit or deathstar that fares much better against a Primarchs without having it's own Primarch?

 

With 4++/3++ stacked with FNP, this gonna happen anyway, an those units are twice the cost of the one I mention above, without Primarchs. How much is 10 Firedrakes with shields and a primus medicare? 

Edited February 17, 2017 by Slipstreams

[depthcharge12]

I don't think anyone other than a speaker for the dead (Ender Wiggins anyone?) can join a Deathsworn squad. They are like destroyers in that IC other than the speaker cannot join them.

 

Someone just fact check me on that...

[Purge the Daemon]

 

 

Deathsworn – Elite choice for Vlka Fenryka

 

A combat vet squad equivalent? Replacement for terminators? Or something fluffy, over costed and relegated to basement battles only?

 

*snip*

I appreciate the time you took to write this up but a few issues. That multi hero Deathsworn blob racks up points like crazy let's assume we take 8 Deathsworn and 2 characters so they fit into a transport (bare in mind you need 10 Deathsworn for 2 gfb). This unit with a caster a Speaker and 8 Deathsworn will rack you up well over 500 points without a transport.

 

Also whole you say most ap2 is anti tank I've seen plenty of vindicators, phosphex and Medusas which are considered competitive options and they love to hit a 600 points to deathstar that they remove all saves from.

 

Also you are probably better speed bumping an enemy death star then feeding him 1/3 of your list when you actually can't win that combat. The enemy deathstar will have 4++/3++ will have 5+++ might have a primarch level character, and will almost certainly be hitting back with s8 ap2 which means no saves of any kind for us.

 

While they don't have an exact comparison in space wolves let's look at Suzerain who cost the same points and fill the exact same slot and role (but they can also be Troops and score and can join characters). Now you may argue Suzerain are an out lighter because they are very good we can then look at gal vorbak which also are terminator hybrids. Deathsworn are just to expensive for what they can do, maybe you get lucky and you bring the pain but the majority of the time you bounce of an Invulnerable stacked with feel no pain and then get squashed.

Good good, and absolutely right. Most posts that someone puts up with a unit analysis can be picked clean with hard counters and reasons that this or that could and may happen. An comparing the Deathsworn to Suzerain is again a good one, except they are an ultramarines unit and not subject to us being able to take them in a Space Wolves list. Perhaps ill check the books and work out what a confrontation between an equally pointed Deathsworn vs Suzerains looks like.

 

My point was a unit analysis, not to say there super awesome, not to say they are an auto include. But to simply make a good account of a unit. I hope that is what I achieved. I love the fact that people will pick it to pieces. There will be those that come to this thread perhaps not knowing about medusa etc etc.

Tiss all good I hysterical drew the comparison to other units because that's their point to point match up and a similar role, occult blade squads also share a very similar role (but they range from mediocre to unholy crush train with iron arm, they to will die I'd they don't have it though but with 50A if they get smash it's 50 at initiative power fists) but they can also be far worse against save2+ if they don't roll well on powers.

 

Now just in terms of Deathsworn I've got 2 more things.

 

Firstly one hilarious thing due to the 6" range of the grenade and bs4 you can actually scatter their Tactical Nuke back onto themselves.... though at this point I think I'd just die inside.

 

This unit could have been actually okay if they had access to combat shields (axes and round shields doesn't even get more viking so please fw) as well as if we could join them to other characters. If they had combat shields and I could put Russ with them I'd actually Consider taking them.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Slipstreams

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

I don't think anyone other than a speaker for the dead (Ender Wiggins anyone?) can join a Deathsworn squad. They are like destroyers in that IC other than the speaker cannot join them.

 

Someone just fact check me on that...

"Units of Deathsworn may not be joined by Independent Character models other than Priests of Fenris. In addition, Priest of Fenris with the Speaker of the Dead sub-type may take a unit of Deathsworn instead of the usual Command Squad."

[Purge the Daemon]

 

 

I don't think anyone other than a speaker for the dead (Ender Wiggins anyone?) can join a Deathsworn squad. They are like destroyers in that IC other than the speaker cannot join them.

 

Someone just fact check me on that...

"Units of Deathsworn may not be joined by Independent Character models other than Priests of Fenris. In addition, Priest of Fenris with the Speaker of the Dead sub-type may take a unit of Deathsworn instead of the usual Command Squad."

Spot on a lot of people have misread this part though and believe it to be only the speaker. What doesn't make sense though is a Speaker can't actually take a command squad so I do to know what usual one it's replacing. So RAW they currently actually can't select one because they have no command squad to replace. Edited February 17, 2017 by Purge the Daemon

[Runefyre]

 

 

I don't think anyone other than a speaker for the dead (Ender Wiggins anyone?) can join a Deathsworn squad. They are like destroyers in that IC other than the speaker cannot join them.

 

Someone just fact check me on that...

"Units of Deathsworn may not be joined by Independent Character models other than Priests of Fenris. In addition, Priest of Fenris with the Speaker of the Dead sub-type may take a unit of Deathsworn instead of the usual Command Squad."

Spot on a lot of people have misread this part though and believe it to be only the speaker. What doesn't make sense though is a Speaker can't actually take a command squad so I do to know what usual one it's replacing. So RAW they currently actually can't select one because they have no command squad to replace.

 

If for some bizarre reason you're taking a SotD as your warlord, then yes you can take DS as a command squad.

 

It's a rubbish rule though.