[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[Coptimas]

 

 

 

Deathsworn – Elite choice for Vlka Fenryka

 

A combat vet squad equivalent? Replacement for terminators? Or something fluffy, over costed and relegated to basement battles only?

 

*snip*

Tiss all good I hysterical drew the comparison to other units because that's their point to point match up and a similar role, occult blade squads also share a very similar role (but they range from mediocre to unholy crush train with iron arm, they to will die I'd they don't have it though but with 50A if they get smash it's 50 at initiative power fists) but they can also be far worse against save2+ if they don't roll well on powers.

 

Now just in terms of Deathsworn I've got 2 more things.

 

Firstly one hilarious thing due to the 6" range of the grenade and bs4 you can actually scatter their Tactical Nuke back onto themselves.... though at this point I think I'd just die inside.

 

This unit could have been actually okay if they had access to combat shields (axes and round shields doesn't even get more viking so please fw) as well as if we could join them to other characters. If they had combat shields and I could put Russ with them I'd actually Consider taking them.

 

 

 

"This unit could have been actually okay if they had access to combat shields (axes and round shields doesn't even get more viking so please fw) as well as if we could join them to other characters. If they had combat shields and I could put Russ with them I'd actually Consider taking them. "

 

Only consider?! I'd be jumping up and down swinging my own axe and shield if this was the case, rule of cool and all that.

 

​An the sarcasm was not lost, I just didn't realize how combative my reply sounded, apologies for that.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Slipstreams

[Purge the Daemon]

 

 

 

 

Deathsworn – Elite choice for Vlka Fenryka

 

A combat vet squad equivalent? Replacement for terminators? Or something fluffy, over costed and relegated to basement battles only?

 

*snip*

"This unit could have been actually okay if they had access to combat shields (axes and round shields doesn't even get more viking so please fw) as well as if we could join them to other characters. If they had combat shields and I could put Russ with them I'd actually Consider taking them. "

 

Only consider?! I'd jumping up and down swinging my own axe and shield if this was the case, rule of cool and all that.

I mean I'd probbably take them the decision would be them or all the terminators I've done and the Varagyr I'd be buying soon. But yeah I think those changes would actually make them viable and I don't see how adding viking shields wouldn't make whatever models they get cooler.

 

it's actually like such a simple change and because the sculpts supposedly aren't done yet not hard for fw to implement and I'm sure would actually drive kit sales.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Slipstreams

[Coptimas]

 

 

 

 

 

Deathsworn – Elite choice for Vlka Fenryka

 

 

I mean I'd probbably take them the decision would be them or all the terminators I've done and the Varagyr I'd be buying soon. But yeah I think those changes would actually make them viable and I don't see how adding viking shields wouldn't make whatever models they get cooler.

 

it's actually like such a simple change and because the sculpts supposedly aren't done yet not hard for fw to implement and I'm sure would actually drive kit sales.

 

*snip*

 

 

Convert with the shields and hope that Forge World see their folly and add them in 

Edited February 17, 2017 by Slipstreams

[Baluc]

Any Priest of Fenris can join Deathsworn.

 

So I have two main issues with your analysis.

 

The first is one that keeps coming up with wolves in general. Outflank is not a good method of delivering an Assault unit. Here is why. Outflanking units are off the board, presenting your opponents with fewer targets and thus less decisions to make for at least 2 turns. If you go first, he has a shooting phase to target what is on the board and then a turn to target what came out of outflank, creating a low pressure situation. If you go second, he has 3 shooting phases to administrate his fire power, before he faces any threat from the outflanking unit. Besides the fact that no SW legion unit actually has scout or outflank, requiring an expensive HQ choice who himself has a specific set of needs at it quickly spiral out of control. Again its ok to be West Ham, but you have to understand its going to be a challenge if you intent is to be involved in a real game with your opponent. 

 

The second, is the actual need for them. I don't see what your regular opponent is fielding that Deathsworn help you combat, which you can't get elsewhere for less points. Your example vs terminators is a decent one. But any 600 point unit is going to bully a unit a 1/3 of its cost. The idea you are describing is called target priority. As the opponent I don't need to target the Deathsworn until they are in a position to assault, since they have no affect on the game until then. 

 

Playing against SWs is about pulling the player out into open ground, shooting them and then charging, That's right you want to charge SWs. The +1 Ws is too great a defensive buff to let SW charge you for over watch unless you are sniper vets with multiple combi-flamers, or you have defensive grenades yourself. So you pull them out, de-mech and charge with heavy hitters. For most Traitor armies its going to be 2W terminator variants, for loyalists Custodes do an excellent job as a counter assault unit especially with MTC. Anyway I'm rambling. Assume you don't take Deathsworn and take 5 Varagyr in a dreadclaw for 400 pts, and spend the 200 pts buffing your compulsory Grey Slayers, do you think it makes your army weaker or stronger over all? 

[Lord Blackwood]

Alright Gentlemen 

We need to stop with the Quote block of  several paragraphs of text. 

You can quote a person and delete out the previous quotes or snip out the part of their post you are replying to. 

Its extremely obnoxious  to scroll through. 

[Robzilla]

Just saying...

But don't deathsworn hold up quite favourably to primarchs?

 

Four attacks each AP2, more or less guaranteed unless the primarch can wipe the unit before they strike. Toss in rad grenades to help out too.

 

Throw in a character to tank wounds too potentially.

 

Sure it won't kill ALL primarchs. Chances are there are a couple who would just laugh them off, but it does by my (brief) calculations hit them very hard...

[ronin_cse]

Alright Gentlemen 

 

We need to stop with the Quote block of  several paragraphs of text. 

 

You can quote a person and delete out the previous quotes or snip out the part of their post you are replying to. 

 

Its extremely obnoxious  to scroll through. 

 

I usually wrap most of the reply in spoiler tags

[Lord Blackwood]

Just saying...

But don't deathsworn hold up quite favourably to primarchs?

 

Four attacks each AP2, more or less guaranteed unless the primarch can wipe the unit before they strike. Toss in rad grenades to help out too.

 

Throw in a character to tank wounds too potentially.

 

Sure it won't kill ALL primarchs. Chances are there are a couple who would just laugh them off, but it does by my (brief) calculations hit them very hard...

The answer to this is no they do not , since most primarchs are hitting at ap2  at an initiative higher than 1  with a strength that can double them out  and the characters that can join them will likely have a 5++ at best and also be doubled out. 

 

Most primarchs would pick their teeth with the unit and still have a 4++ or better against any wounds they do inflict. 

[Leman Russ SW]

In Bloodied Claw with rad grenades you will be ignoring FNP and insta killing Fire Drake, Butchers and Death Shroud not to mention and non prim arch characters with them.

[Runefyre]

In Bloodied Claw with rad grenades you will be ignoring FNP and insta killing Fire Drake, Butchers and Death Shroud not to mention and non prim arch characters with them.

Deathsworn don't get Furious charge unfortunately. Nothing with access to rad grenades does.

 

Both of our legion specific RoW's are very narrow in focus.

[Leman Russ SW]

An Iron priest in Grey Slayer squad with power axes and combat shields could be a good way of dealing with Elite multi wound units.

[Lord Blackwood]

that sounds like a lot of points to burn on something that terminators could also easily do. 

[Baluc]

An Iron priest in Grey Slayer squad with power axes and combat shields could be a good way of dealing with Elite multi wound units.

 

Its not a bad idea, you just need either a) a way to get them into 2w terminators  or b) a way to get them near you. 

[Leman Russ SW]

Yeah but its a unique Space Wolf unit and isn't that the point of playing Space Wolves?  Plus you can fit twice as many in a Spartan so will be getting twice the number of attacks.

[Baluc]

that sounds like a lot of points to burn on something that terminators could also easily do. 

 

Power fist Varagyr are actually excellent in the Legion Specific head to head fight if they get the charge, or if Fear Procs. Lots of S8 attacks and higher WS through the charge or fear tests. I've come around on them actually, they should be cheaper but they do the job of fighting the toughest guys other legions can put out.

 

Unfortunetly that isn't quite how combat works @Leman Russ SW.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Baluc

[Leman Russ SW]

A lot of legion specifics are only WS4 so will hit on 3's against them.  If you go claw and fist you will get more attacks too.

[Baluc]

Varagyr should be used for the targetting of Legion Specific 2 wound Terminators and Primarch Deathstars, if you don't fight many of those they are a bit wasted. Still need to look out for Red Butchers though.

[Robzilla]

 

 

Just saying...

But don't deathsworn hold up quite favourably to primarchs?

 

Four attacks each AP2, more or less guaranteed unless the primarch can wipe the unit before they strike. Toss in rad grenades to help out too.

 

Throw in a character to tank wounds too potentially.

 

Sure it won't kill ALL primarchs. Chances are there are a couple who would just laugh them off, but it does by my (brief) calculations hit them very hard...

The answer to this is no they do not , since most primarchs are hitting at ap2 at an initiative higher than 1 with a strength that can double them out and the characters that can join them will likely have a 5++ at best and also be doubled out.

 

Most primarchs would pick their teeth with the unit and still have a 4++ or better against any wounds they do inflict.

True enough, and it's not an encounter I would expect the unit to walk away from.

But...

 

Let's say we consider a middle of the road primarch stats:

 

40 attacks, hitting on 4s

20 hits.

Strength 5, but the primarch will be at - 1T so assume 4s?

10 wounds.

AP2, so straight to invulnerable.

5 wounds suffered.

 

Obviously I know this is a bit of a vacuum, but with a few exceptions (angron, russ, horus) the tough primarchs have few attacks, and won't wade through the unit too quick, whilst the more killy primarchs tend to be less tough, and easier to kill.

 

Regarding characters, I'm quite fond of forge Lords with the wolves which are reasonably tanky. (4++, or even 3++) to try and distract a few attacks from the unit too.

[Lord Blackwood]

Twenty Grey Slayers With an Iron Priest in a Spartan  Lets just Consider the points investment of that unit 


375 for Axe and Shield Slayers 
375 for the Spartan Tooled up to get to where it needs to go 
Lets go cheap on the  Forge lord and say about 145 

Thats 
895 ish points 

Centralized in one transport ....   of T4 1W dudes ?    

No  this is not a good idea 

[Lord Blackwood]

 

True enough, and it's not an encounter I would expect the unit to walk away from.

But...

 

Let's say we consider a middle of the road primarch stats:

 

40 attacks, hitting on 4s

20 hits.

Strength 5, but the primarch will be at - 1T so assume 4s?

10 wounds.

AP2, so straight to invulnerable.

5 wounds suffered.

 

Obviously I know this is a bit of a vacuum, but with a few exceptions (angron, russ, horus) the tough primarchs have few attacks, and won't wade through the unit too quick, whilst the more killy primarchs tend to be less tough, and easier to kill.

 

Regarding characters, I'm quite fond of forge Lords with the wolves which are reasonably tanky. (4++, or even 3++) to try and distract a few attacks from the unit too.

 

How exactly are the Deathsworn all attacking just the primarch ?  You killed his Retinue  with the same power axes that likely arent getting to swing outside of their death frenzy thing? 

[Leman Russ SW]

You wouldn't put axes on all the slayers probably half and shields on the other half to tank with.  A spartan full of termis is a similar points investments and while you have a 4+ invent you have half the number of wounds.  I am not saying it is an amazing unit but point for point I think it can compete with terminators in the same role. 

[Purge the Daemon]

The problem is you are assuming a lone primarch which won't happen and most will have feel no pain as well. The issue is they will all have a bodyguard all can look out sir and they stand a good chance of killing you first.

 

Onto he Grey Slayer Blob of shields and axes each individual model can only take 1 of the above which is first off horribly expensive 400point tac Marines and secondly causes huge positions problems either axes in front and get more saves or shields in front and be punching with fists cause 20+ models don't make it into combat well.

 

On the point of Varagyr fear it's a nice boost except most the thjngs Varagyr want to fight in hopes they can ever earn back points also cause fear, putting Hvarl or Russ in the unit would also grant this rule so kind of wasted.

 

And most legion specifics that actually want to be fighting dedicated assault units are ws5 and almost certainly have a chaplain for rerolls.

 

Also the iron priests wolves are horrendously expensive 4 oforce them runs you 60 points as they must be cyber wolves and they are litterally just squished Marines that cost more than a marine...

[Lord Blackwood]

A spartan FULL of termis is also a bad idea , because much like the afformentioned  grey slayers stuffed in a large metal box its a huge points sink. 

What the Terminators have over the grey slayers is that they ALSO  have legitimate hitting power and if catphractii a 4++ invul save to lean on. 


If you want to try drowning X unit in saves , then  sure taking a bunch of grey slayers is reasonable , but  I  do not feel they will remotely earn their points back and will likely chew up too much of the list for just one troop slot. 

[Purge the Daemon]

A spartan FULL of termis is also a bad idea , because much like the afformentioned grey slayers stuffed in a large metal box its a huge points sink.

 

What the Terminators have over the grey slayers is that they ALSO have legitimate hitting power and if catphractii a 4++ invul save to lean on.

 

 

If you want to try drowning X unit in saves , then sure taking a bunch of grey slayers is reasonable , but I do not feel they will remotely earn their points back and will likely chew up too much of the list for just one troop slot.

Like the only legion that uses tacticals Ina Spartan well is world eaters because they are all s6 ap4 with feel no pain hatred rage and a can ramp it up to 11 if they want. They also don't cost more than Tacticals to do that.

 

If you take Grey Slayer blobs you cost an extra 100 points and lack all of the above bonuses for what a chance to strike at i1 if those models get base contact and aren't dead yet.

[Baluc]

Forget the points... The defending player allocates wounds. Why would any player allocate 10 Ap2 wounds on to their Primarch?