Robzilla Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Again, a true enough comment, But then we are comparing a 400-500pt primarch, plus bodyguard, plus transport tank, to a 330 point unit plus transport. This is the problem with theoryhammer. It'd all conjecture. Suffice to say, I think they pose more of a threat to a primarch than many other units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leman Russ SW Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I have never had problems getting all of a unit in combat when coming out of a transport. The shields go to the front and the axes can move to within combat range at i1 if you didn't manage to get them all there on the charge. I wouldn't take cyber wolves in the unit. Personally i wouldn't run the unit but it is a fun option in large games. I will be running my slayers in pods with boaters, 2 combo metas and great frost blade melts bomb and AA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Again, a true enough comment, But then we are comparing a 400-500pt primarch, plus bodyguard, plus transport tank, to a 330 point unit plus transport. This is the problem with theoryhammer. It'd all conjecture. Suffice to say, I think they pose more of a threat to a primarch than many other units. It might be theory hammer but you are going to legitimately do nothing unless you happen to walk into like a solo squishy primarch except most solo primarchs are more mobile than you are. Otherwise you are a very expensive 1 turn speed bump. Like you litterally will get wiped before attacking by any bodyguard unit. Remember the cost of the unit isn't just the 350 or so but you also need a 200+ point assault vehicle so a large portion of your army is a twin linked lascannon and an opportunistic speed bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leman Russ SW Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I think the best transport for them will be an anvillus. its the most mobile and probably the most survivable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I have never had problems getting all of a unit in combat when coming out of a transport. The shields go to the front and the axes can move to within combat range at i1 if you didn't manage to get them all there on the charge. I wouldn't take cyber wolves in the unit. Personally i wouldn't run the unit but it is a fun option in large games. I will be running my slayers in pods with boaters, 2 combo metas and great frost blade melts bomb and AA. because its a bad idea Because its a good idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) Here's an interesting Orbital Assault list I've been thinking on. I like coming up with random lists. 2000 points (orbital assault) Geigor (goes in kharybdis) Forge Lord (rad grenades) (goes in kharybdis) (2x) Grey Slayer squads (2x combi weapons, aa,power fist huscar, drop pod DT) (2x) quad mortars (Drop pod DT) Legion Terminator squad (power fist sergeant, goes in the dreadclaw) Varagyr squad (5 frost claws/combi-weapons, goes in the kharybdis) Dreadclaw Kharybdis Leviathan siege dreadnought (drill, melta-lance, DDP DT) What think you? Edited February 17, 2017 by Runefyre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) Seems fairly solid , good bit of anti tank ( i am assuming shatter shells on the rapiers ) , some anti infantry , scoring from the slayers that can also do a bit of work without being over costed. The Levi and the Wolf Guard can do the heavy lifted ( as well as the Levis anti tank abilities also being used for heavy tank lifting Also the correct number of pods for a 4 - 3 split Edited February 17, 2017 by Bladewolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I would switch the transports and roles for the Terminator units, and make the Varagyr combat specialists. Powerfist+Claw is basically the only way to run Varagyr that plays to their strengths. Drop the Quad mortars they can't shoot the turn they come in anyway. Why Greigor by the way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 with shatter shells they could snapfire , and uless they are killed dropping them down means they will likely have fantastic fire arcs it is a bit of a gamble , considering that the enemy can just remove them but if they survive they will be doing a lot of work , and if they dont well thats heat off the rest of yer stuff . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Geigor is cheap, he's basically a delegates. Plus we had a discussion awhile back were we discovered that rapists can be fired on the move, as the marines aren't equipped with the heavy weapon. The varagyr would prob be run with frost claws Also feel free to swap the fl for a sotd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) Geigor is cheap, he's basically a delegates. Plus we had a discussion awhile back were we discovered that rapists can be fired on the move, as the marines aren't equipped with the heavy weapon. The varagyr would prob be run with frost claws Also feel free to swap the fl for a sotd. If you're running 1 melee weapon almost certainly better with the first over the claw unless you're taking about swapping out the combi weapons. Also would it other be better to just drop the rappers scrap the combi meltas and run 4 Javelins outflanking and bring the grey slayers second wave to camp objectives. Also tallying this up seems to put it at more than 2k no? I wrote up a variation on the same list shifting some stuff around. Hvarl Red-Blade blade 210 (Warlord trait is great and he's actually a good fighter) 3 Tartaros Command Squad 95 -chain fist -2 power fists Dreadclaw 115 Priest of Fenris 135 -speaker of the dead -Tartaros Armour -great frost blade 5 Varagyr 300 -5 frost claws -4 power fists -chain fist Dreadclaw 115 10 Grey Slayers 155 -2 combi meltas -artificer armour -power fist Drop Pod 35 10 Grey Slayers 155 -2 combi meltas -artificer armour -power fist Drop Pod 35 2 Javelins 130 -2 multi meltas 2 Javelins 130 -2 multi meltas Leviathan 290 -siege drill -phosphex discharger Dreadnought Drop Pod 100 Edited February 17, 2017 by Purge the Daemon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 If a crew moves and then fires the weapon he would snap fire as he is firing a heavy weapon. I would suggest you go the speeder route. Greigor is a decent character. BLACK BLΠFLY 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sturguard Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I would also guess 10 deathsworn in even a rhino cost significantly more than one of the cheaper primarchs even if you could put all your attacks on him, and he still lived in the example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) Geigor is cheap, he's basically a delegates. Plus we had a discussion awhile back were we discovered that rapists can be fired on the move, as the marines aren't equipped with the heavy weapon. The varagyr would prob be run with frost claws Also feel free to swap the fl for a sotd. If you're running 1 melee weapon almost certainly better with the first over the claw unless you're taking about swapping out the combi weapons. Also would it other be better to just drop the rappers scrap the combi meltas and run 4 Javelins outflanking and bring the grey slayers second wave to camp objectives. Also tallying this up seems to put it at more than 2k no? I wrote up a variation on the same list shifting some stuff around. Hvarl Red-Blade blade 210 (Warlord trait is great and he's actually a good fighter) -snip- No my list definitely comes to 2000 points. I didn't go into insane detail on the loadouts, I'm on mobile. Your list looks great, but is more shooty and less hitty, maybe more than I'd prefer. Edited February 17, 2017 by Runefyre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I would also guess 10 deathsworn in even a rhino cost significantly more than one of the cheaper primarchs even if you could put all your attacks on him, and he still lived in the example. 10 Deathsworn in a Rhino comes out to the same as Dorn provided only upgrades are rad grenades and 2 gfb. And I believe Dornan actually survives the combat 1v10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robzilla Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) I would also guess 10 deathsworn in even a rhino cost significantly more than one of the cheaper primarchs even if you could put all your attacks on him, and he still lived in the example.10 Deathsworn in a Rhino comes out to the same as Dorn provided only upgrades are rad grenades and 2 gfb. And I believe Dornan actually survives the combat 1v10.Just to run the numbers: Dorn attacks. Hits 2.66 times. Dorn rolls to wound. 2.22 wounds. Shred re-release makes it 2.56 wounds. Rampage makes it anywhere between about 3 and 4.5. In return the deathsworn make it 40 attacks. 20 hit. Ten wound. Five save. Dorn loses combat. Second round of combat: Dorn kills anywhere between 3 and 4.5. The deathsworn do anywhere between 2.62 wounds, and 1.87 depending on the turns previous casualties. Dorn dies. He could get lucky and kill the squad, but it's unlikely. Edit: forgot the squad has preferred enemy (infantry). Does that count against characters? If so Dorn takes 7.77 wounds round one. Edited February 17, 2017 by Robzilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) Just to run the numbers: Dorn attacks. Hits 2.66 times. Dorn rolls to wound. 2.22 wounds. Shred re-release makes it 2.56 wounds. Rampage makes it anywhere between about 3 and 4.5. In return the deathsworn make it 40 attacks. 20 hit. Ten wound. Five save. Dorn loses combat. Second round of combat: Dorn kills anywhere between 3 and 4.5. The deathsworn do anywhere between 2.62 wounds, and 1.87 depending on the turns previous casualties. Dorn dies. He could get lucky and kill the squad, but it's unlikely. Meant it more of a 1 round thing because who would run their primarch in and nkt support him through two full turns. But again they can't take out what is one of the weakest primarchs solo which he would never ever Be they just aren't a good solution for that. They have no preference enemy without a priest which makes them cost more than any primarch and not fit in that Rhino. Also they only have 30 attacks unless they got the charge from their Rhino? And Dorn would use reaping blow to gain another attack as well also he should be wounding more he wounds on 2'some reroll with 7 attacks on average for rampage which hit on 3's. Edited February 17, 2017 by Purge the Daemon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leman Russ SW Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 They have counter attack so would get 4 attacks each first round no matter who charges. 2 base, 1 for pistol, one for charge or CA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robzilla Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) Snip Meant it more of a 1 round thing because who would run their primarch in and nkt support him through two full turns. But again they can't take out what is one of the weakest primarchs solo which he would never ever Be they just aren't a good solution for that. If preferred enemy works against characters, they actually do kill him in one round. I've run the numbers against other primarchs too. Assuming preferred enemy, They score one round kills against: Corax Dorn Horus!!! Angron (if they charge) Curze Alpharius. Ferrus, vulkan and perturabo get mauled but don't die in a round, but also don't deal too much damage. I don't have his stats on me, but I imagine gulliman would be in this camp too. Mortarian and Fulgrim come out ahead. I haven't checked against logar. But I think it's safe to say: buffed, he wins. Unbuffed he dies. Ditto for magnus too I daresay. Yes, I know that rarely will. This ever come to pass, to fight without bodyguards. But primarch fights always devolve into feeding them sacrifical units, or accepting mutual decimation. (terminators vs terminators or equivalent only tend to end one way). Edit: Snip. They have no preference enemy without a priest which makes them cost more than any primarch and not fit in that Rhino. Also they only have 30 attacks unless they got the charge from their Rhino? And Dorn would use reaping blow to gain another attack as well also he should be wounding more he wounds on 2'some reroll with 7 attacks on average for rampage which hit on 3's. Right you are with preferred enemy! Had a bit of a brain fart then... Bizarre. I did edit to factor in reading blow which takes dorns tally to anywhere between about 3 and 4.5, the squad still attacks back with 4 attacks per model, (as someone commented above) and skill either mauls, or kills. I do admit, that they are less appealing now that I realise they don't have preferred enemy :p Still, dropping the squad to nine, and adding in a tooled up priest takes the total points to about 435 plus transport. Not as amazing as I believed, but I still don't believe you could call them a bad unit for their job. Edited February 17, 2017 by Robzilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Snip Meant it more of a 1 round thing because who would run their primarch in and nkt support him through two full turns. But again they can't take out what is one of the weakest primarchs solo which he would never ever Be they just aren't a good solution for that. If preferred enemy works against characters, they actually do kill him in one round. I've run the numbers against other primarchs too. Assuming preferred enemy, They score one round kills against: Corax Dorn Horus!!! Angron (if they charge) Curze Alpharius. Ferrus, vulkan and perturabo get mauled but don't die in a round, but also don't deal too much damage. I don't have his stats on me, but I imagine gulliman would be in this camp too. Mortarian and Fulgrim come out ahead. I haven't checked against logar. But I think it's safe to say: buffed, he wins. Unbuffed he dies. Ditto for magnus too I daresay. Yes, I know that rarely will. This ever come to pass, to fight without bodyguards. But primarch fights always devolve into feeding them sacrifical units, or accepting mutual decimation. (terminators vs terminators or equivalent only tend to end one way). The problem is Deathsworn are stuck at lower than i4 so if they can kill 10 no invulnerable save 1w models you don't even get to strike. Most primarchs don't kill 10 models in 1 turn but a primarch and another character might or if the squad was shot at before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Deathsworn always get to fight, that's their primary ability. So we have officially decided if you somehow get a jump on a Primarch without a bodygaurd a fresh unit of Deathsworn with a Speaker of the Dead can kill him. Glad that is dusted then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) Deathsworn always get to fight, that's their primary ability. So we have officially decided if you somehow get a jump on a Primarch without a bodygaurd a fresh unit of Deathsworn with a Speaker of the Dead can kill him. Glad that is dusted then.They always get to fight if they are not all dead. Which is what my primary argument is on a lot of primarch and squads or even seem dedicated combat units can just wipe 10 of them before they even get to swing and then it's all done. Like they look decent when they aren't being shot at or when whatever they fight can't do 10 wounds before i1 otherwise they are purely a speed bump. Edited February 17, 2017 by Purge the Daemon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robzilla Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Snip The problem is Deathsworn are stuck at lower than i4 so if they can kill 10 no invulnerable save 1w models you don't even get to strike. Most primarchs don't kill 10 models in 1 turn but a primarch and another character might or if the squad was shot at before. Yes, but all tools have their uses, and their times to be used. You wouldn't charge russ into a fearless cultists horde, when he could charge a squad of terminators, would you? Likewise, I wouldn't charge deathsworn into a primarch, character, and squad of terminators. Because, as you have said, they will die. Horribly. Might I charge when they are down to the bare bones in the squad, after a few turns of shooting, or getting hit by other units? Sure, maybe then. I'm. Trying to say that they do have a use, and they can be used to good effect, but to Use them wastefully would be well... Wasteful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 But depending on RoW you HAVE to charge if in range of an enemy, although you do get to decide who to charge if there is more than one option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Well... that assumes you have them in your list. And, I'm not sure taking them and trying to manufacture this situation is worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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