[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[Purge the Daemon]

Well... that assumes you have them in your list. And, I'm not sure taking them and trying to manufacture this situation is worthwhile.

I'm with you here Baluc I think they might look cool and maybe have some use but I don't know if the small window of opportunity is worth trying to fit then into most lists.

[Baluc]

I might convert some up at some point just for completeness sake. But meh no hurry.

[defl0]

I just published a Space Wolves Tactica on my Raven Guard Tactics Blog. 

 

Can you guys take a look and see if I screwed up any rules or missed any obvious tactics? 

 

Space Wolves Tactica

[Nova_chron]

But depending on RoW you HAVE to charge if in range of an enemy, although you do get to decide who to charge if there is more than one option?

Bloodied claw rule applies only you grey slayers and assault squads so deathsworn can do what they want

[Purge the Daemon]

I might convert some up at some point just for completeness sake. But meh no hurry.

If they look really cool I'll get myself a set but I don't know if I forsee my self using them. Fw please give combat shields...

[defl0]

Interesting. I'll update that. Thanks

[Coptimas]

Any Priest of Fenris can join Deathsworn.

 

So I have two main issues with your analysis.

 

The first is one that keeps coming up with wolves in general. Outflank is not a good method of delivering an Assault unit. Here is why. Outflanking units are off the board, presenting your opponents with fewer targets and thus less decisions to make for at least 2 turns. If you go first, he has a shooting phase to target what is on the board and then a turn to target what came out of outflank, creating a low pressure situation. If you go second, he has 3 shooting phases to administrate his fire power, before he faces any threat from the outflanking unit. Besides the fact that no SW legion unit actually has scout or outflank, requiring an expensive HQ choice who himself has a specific set of needs at it quickly spiral out of control. Again its ok to be West Ham, but you have to understand its going to be a challenge if you intent is to be involved in a real game with your opponent. 

 

The second, is the actual need for them. I don't see what your regular opponent is fielding that Deathsworn help you combat, which you can't get elsewhere for less points. Your example vs terminators is a decent one. But any 600 point unit is going to bully a unit a 1/3 of its cost. The idea you are describing is called target priority. As the opponent I don't need to target the Deathsworn until they are in a position to assault, since they have no affect on the game until then. 

 

Playing against SWs is about pulling the player out into open ground, shooting them and then charging, That's right you want to charge SWs. The +1 Ws is too great a defensive buff to let SW charge you for over watch unless you are sniper vets with multiple combi-flamers, or you have defensive grenades yourself. So you pull them out, de-mech and charge with heavy hitters. For most Traitor armies its going to be 2W terminator variants, for loyalists Custodes do an excellent job as a counter assault unit especially with MTC. Anyway I'm rambling. Assume you don't take Deathsworn and take 5 Varagyr in a dreadclaw for 400 pts, and spend the 200 pts buffing your compulsory Grey Slayers, do you think it makes your army weaker or stronger over all? 

 

At face value you are correct, assault units don’t suite outflank, in general.

But all the reasons you point out as weak I see as a good opportunity to exploit. I have found that not being on the board in numbers on turn one is an excellent strategy, people know that being tabled game turn one means you lost, an so they rarely plan for it nor anticipate it.

 

To make it work, be mindful of alpha strikes and lots of barrage which can be anticipated and if your list is adaptable enough countered. Use good deployment and terrain and your opponent has nothing to shoot at turn one, nothing. He sits and laments not anticipating that you would have only three units on the board each out of range, line of site and untouchable. If looking at drop pod assault, there are risks to that unit in the list I have built, also the inherent fact that the list is mutable covers the eventuality should you wish as you can choose to deploy and scout move as opposed to outflank, or not as the case may be.

 

Always trying to go second is the key and frankly a fantastic idea for the wolves. 50% chance night fight roughly, giving those units on the table a cover save. Make sure the units on the table are tougher units to shift. Opponent deploys first, as most will choose to deploy first to go first as opposed to risk a seize unless they have a USR or something other which aids it, again a noticeable addition in the enemy force which can be anticipated and countered. Your going second and being aware of unit layout, deployment, reserves so can already see the vast majority of your opponent’s possible targets, strategy’s and plan accordingly on your deployment.

 

The first turn kicks off and your opponent goes first, pushes forward, stays put, try’s to anticipate your reserves and what he can do to counter them, but for the most part turn one becomes a no kills null drawn round as you sit tight, push objectives or not and generally make sure the battle is heading the way you want it too. Obviously pushing objectives shouldn’t really be an issue as the ones you had control over are favorable to you anyway.

 

Opponents turn two, in comes some reserves, some units might be in a position to threaten some of your on board units but generally they are stuffed as you have anticipated this by seeing his turn one movements and moving later to counter and by virtue that your opponent hasn’t gone for a strong outflanking force as he is facing Wolves and again you have units that effect their reserves. Your reserves then start to come in, backed up by RoW, Damocles, Exploratory Web etc. You will be placing units to hurt the most, forcing your opponent to take casualties as you arrive on mass from both sides. You only increase this hurt as the units that are already on the table push into prime locations to add to the glory. Your reserves that are armed for CQB take cover, use transports and get ready to receive the return fire or charges the following turn. This is your turn two remember.

 

Next turn your opponent responds with what he has left, perhaps some late reserves come on and your caught a little out of shape but by this point you have struck first and decisively as you controlled the way you got to shoot with far greater accuracy over battlefield control than your opponent. Your units with reserve rerolls and pluses mostly came in exactly where you planned. Your units are excellent at receiving the charge, so that doesn’t concern you too much and you arrived in such numbers that he just can’t kill you all. Again, your enemy is responding to you, moving to avoid or counter. By the time your turn three comes around your ready for your assault moves, charges, push opponent off objectives, that you have probably been contesting by virtue of how many there are likely to be, proximity to the edges and an overall feeling that Pale Hunter and outflanking assault units is . At this stage you have the killier units overall, better position with target allocation and saturation.

 

The rest is clean up quite frankly if turn two and three go right, which you can manage to a huge degree by going second and deploying via outflank.

 

Outflank can work, with assaulting units, but it takes commitment to it and a good deal of thought. I prefer this to a game that try’s to be auto win and then comes a cropper as dice rolls and experience take over. But as I said at the start, your right, the general list and force can’t make assaulting units work as efficiently as straight up armoured assault, alpha strike etc etc.

 

Now as a caveat to all this I am merely stating it can work, not it’s the best, not that there are no counters, not that a barrage list wont hand you a ruddy good shoeing if it all goes wrong. I do however think it has merits and again shouldn’t be ignored as a way to put some hurt on some folk.

 

With regards to the Deathsworn, Varagyr, we would clearly field them differently and so Ill leave it at that. I’m still shocked you see the unit as 600 pts to be effective, or not effective. As for the stronger or weaker overall, that depends on the way the list is tailored as I still don’t see the units filling the same roles, and don’t see me spending 600 pts on the Deathsworn.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Coptimas

[Coptimas]

Also if someone could tell me how to do the snipits/spoiler or both I would appreciate it. Dont want my stuff boring everyone to tears.

 

Many thanks

[Slips]

>insert text<

[./spoiler] without the period.

 

To snip, just delete text inside the bloc when you quote.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Slipstreams

[Coptimas]

thanks

Edited February 18, 2017 by Coptimas

[Coptimas]

 While they don't have an exact comparison in space wolves let's look at Suzerain who cost the same points and fill the exact same slot and role 

 

 Perhaps ill check the books and work out what a confrontation between an equally pointed Deathsworn vs Suzerains looks like. 

 

So Suzerain squad of ten bumps into a Deathsworn squad of ten, Deathsworn are 330 pts for ten with rad grens, Suzy's are 325 pts stock.

 

It doesn't matter who gets the charge, the out come is the same, the Deathsworn win combat, with 9 dead Suzy's and five dead Deathsworn, on average rolls if we charge them, or 7 dead Deathsworn and 10 dead Suzy's if they charge us.

 

This is approximates and based on averages. It's  a vacuum and does not in anyway show the usefulness of Deathsworn, but fun non the less.

 

 Ten Deathsworn kitted and with attached SotD is 465.

 

 

 

With 4++/3++ stacked with FNP, this gonna happen anyway, an those units are twice the cost of the one I mention above, without Primarchs. How much is 10 Firedrakes with shields and a primus medicare?  

 

So, ten Fire Drakes all TH and SS with similar armed Primus....775.  An they mince the Deathsworn, until you take the points down to the same level, 500 worth of Fire Drakes vs 485 of Deathsworn, and then the Deathsworn win with two surviving and the SotD, whilst the Primus and five FD's are gone. 

 

​Again, approximates based on averages, vacuum and does not in anyway show the usefulness of Deathsworn over FD's, but still fun.

[Purge the Daemon]

 

While they don't have an exact comparison in space wolves let's look at Suzerain who cost the same points and fill the exact same slot and role

 

Perhaps ill check the books and work out what a confrontation between an equally pointed Deathsworn vs Suzerains looks like.

So Suzerain squad of ten bumps into a Deathsworn squad of ten, Deathsworn are 330 pts for ten with rad grens, Suzy's are 325 pts stock.

 

It doesn't matter who gets the charge, the out come is the same, the Deathsworn win combat, with 9 dead Suzy's and five dead Deathsworn, on average rolls if we charge them, or 7 dead Deathsworn and 10 dead Suzy's if they charge us.

 

This is approximates and based on averages. It's a vacuum and does not in anyway show the usefulness of Deathsworn, but fun non the less.

Ten Deathsworn kitted and with attached SotD is 465.

 

With 4++/3++ stacked with FNP, this gonna happen anyway, an those units are twice the cost of the one I mention above, without Primarchs. How much is 10 Firedrakes with shields and a primus medicare?

So, ten Fire Drakes all TH and SS with similar armed Primus....775. An they mince the Deathsworn, until you take the points down to the same level, 500 worth of Fire Drakes vs 485 of Deathsworn, and then the Deathsworn win with two surviving and the SotD, whilst the Primus and five FD's are gone.

 

​Again, approximates based on averages, vacuum and does not in anyway show the usefulness of Deathsworn over FD's, but still fun.

If Suzerain charge they have 2A base +1 for charge they also would hit on 3's. Due to Deathsworn being ws4 not on the charge.

 

30/6*4 =20 hit's 5 of which auto wound due to cutting edge

 

15 normal hits in 4's to wound is 7.5

 

5+7.5 =12.5

 

The deathsworn don't even get to fight.

 

If we charge we don't get a charge bonus due to defensive grenades.

 

So they have 20 attacks hitting on 3's.

 

The math adds up to them killing 7 if they do not have counter attack or 12.5 if they do.

 

If they have no counter attack (one of their rights of war gives this) we get 30 attacks on 4s 15 hits wounds on 2 which is 12.5 wounds. They get a 5++ causing 8.33 deaths.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Purge the Daemon

[Ranwulf]

Interesting. I'll update that. Thanks

Dude, one thing - you can't take drop pods with Bloodied Claw because they are imobile.

 

Ran

[1ncarnadine]

 

Dude, one thing - you can't take drop pods with Bloodied Claw because they are imobile.

 

Ran

 

A lot of people ignore that, though. FW doesn't seem to know they're Immobile or doesn't count them as Immobile, because the Word Bearer Rite "Last of the Serrated Sun" is literally a drop pod assault and also restricts you from "Immobile" units.

[depthcharge12]

Would be funny if Deathsworn got 2 wounds in the update...lol. It would dang near guarantee the unit gets to swing back.

[sturguard]

I believe I am going orbital strike, 2500 pts.

I am thinking

Leman Russ, 2 wolfkin, in a drop pod, the 115 pt one.

2-3 box dreads in standard drop pods

2 units of grey slayers, bare bones in drop pods as objective takers

2 units of vets in rhinos outflanking

Voss Lightning with Kraken

5 legion termies in drop pod.

2 javelins and maybe a Damocles.

Not sure how many points that is.

 

Russ will drop down with the wolfkin with the dreads, that should put alot of pressure on one side of the enemies forces. I was thinking dual pfists with dual gravity guns and 2 HK missiles on each. With 6 grav shots and 6 HK missiles that should put a hurt on some armor.

Edited February 18, 2017 by sturguard

[Nova_chron]

If Suzies charge deathsworn they get no bonus attacks as our snazzy grenades are defensive grenades

[sturguard]

 

 

Dude, one thing - you can't take drop pods with Bloodied Claw because they are imobile.

 

Ran

 

A lot of people ignore that, though. FW doesn't seem to know they're Immobile or doesn't count them as Immobile, because the Word Bearer Rite "Last of the Serrated Sun" is literally a drop pod assault and also restricts you from "Immobile" units.

 

How can you ignore that, the drop pod(s) unit entries all say Immobile in their special rules section-

[grouj]

Serious question because I don't want to mess up lol. Would you tool up your Deathsworn with fists or blades? Part of me wants to go with fists for all comers, but part of me wants blades for enemy terminators with fists. Thoughts?

[Purge the Daemon]

Serious question because I don't want to mess up lol. Would you tool up your Deathsworn with fists or blades? Part of me wants to go with fists for all comers, but part of me wants blades for enemy terminators with fists. Thoughts?

Fists have some use for sure against custodes where with rad grenades you instant death them. But frost blades are better for most legion units a lot of which have unwieldy weapons.

[Runefyre]

 

 

 

Dude, one thing - you can't take drop pods with Bloodied Claw because they are imobile.

 

Ran

 

A lot of people ignore that, though. FW doesn't seem to know they're Immobile or doesn't count them as Immobile, because the Word Bearer Rite "Last of the Serrated Sun" is literally a drop pod assault and also restricts you from "Immobile" units.

 

How can you ignore that, the drop pod(s) unit entries all say Immobile in their special rules section-

 

How can you not? In Serrated Suns any unit that can take a rhino DT can also take a drop pod DT. What would be the point of that when you can't even take drop pods?

 

Would be funny if Deathsworn got 2 wounds in the update...lol. It would dang near guarantee the unit gets to swing back.

Is there an update in the works? Because the Wolves rules need SO many revisions, it's not funny.

[Coptimas]

 

 

While they don't have an exact comparison in space wolves let's look at Suzerain who cost the same points and fill the exact same slot and role

Perhaps ill check the books and work out what a confrontation between an equally pointed Deathsworn vs Suzerains looks like.

So Suzerain squad of ten bumps into a Deathsworn squad of ten, Deathsworn are 330 pts for ten with rad grens, Suzy's are 325 pts stock.

 

It doesn't matter who gets the charge, the out come is the same, the Deathsworn win combat, with 9 dead Suzy's and five dead Deathsworn, on average rolls if we charge them, or 7 dead Deathsworn and 10 dead Suzy's if they charge us.

 

This is approximates and based on averages. It's a vacuum and does not in anyway show the usefulness of Deathsworn, but fun non the less.

 

 

If Suzerain charge they have 2A base +1 for charge they also would hit on 3's. Due to Deathsworn being ws4 not on the charge.

 

30/6*4 =20 hit's 5 of which auto wound due to cutting edge

 

15 normal hits in 4's to wound is 7.5

 

5+7.5 =12.5

 

The deathsworn don't even get to fight.

 

If we charge we don't get a charge bonus due to defensive grenades.

 

So they have 20 attacks hitting on 3's.

 

The math adds up to them killing 7 if they do not have counter attack or 12.5 if they do.

 

If they have no counter attack (one of their rights of war gives this) we get 30 attacks on 4s 15 hits wounds on 2 which is 12.5 wounds. They get a 5++ causing 8.33 deaths.

 

 

If Suzerain charge they have 2A base +1 for charge they also would hit on 3's. Due to Deathsworn being ws4 not on the charge.

 

 

But the Deathsworn have defensive grenades, so they have two attacks. Cutting edge auto wounds on six's, so the 20 attacks, hit 12/13 times, on average causing 7 wounds. The Deathsworn then hit back, dead or alive due to DotDW USR and with counter attack which equals 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds and they will make 4 saves, 10 dead Suzy's. Deathsworn win combat.

 

We charge them, 30 attacks, 15 hits, 13 wounds, 4 saves again and 9 dead Suzy's. They hit first but it matters not, 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5/6 wounds, we still win combat.

 

Next time I do one of these Ill put the workings out, makes it easier. I must say though, it's all close and not a for gone, but the Rads and the Power Axes are awful. The results are very similar when you do the same with the Gal Vorbak, Deathsworn win combat, although the Gal Vorbak can take power weapons but this increases there cost considerably. 

Edited February 18, 2017 by Coptimas

[Caillum]

Deathsworn are pretty good it seems. :)

[sturguard]

All the deathsworn math is in a vacuum. What happens when they get shot with plasma and never get to do anything? No invul, 1 wound, expensive. Id be interested to see the math in 10 Legion terminators with pfists against Dorn, I would suspect they beat him too and cost less than the Deathsworn. Another question that was not answered is how do you get all those models in base with just say Dorn and ignore his retinue? Anyhow, what about this list- 2500 pts Orbital Strike

 

Russ

Wulfkin

Anvillus Drop Pod

 

2x Dreads, dual pfist, dual gravguns, 2 HK missiles in Legion Drop Pods

2x Gray Slayers, 2Pfist, AA- Legion Drop Pod

2x Vets, AA, in rhino with MM, Outflank and Marksmen

5 Legion Terminators- plasmablaster, 3 combiplasma

2x Javelins with MM/CML

1 Lightning, 2xKraken, Phosphex Bomb Cluster, Battle Servitor

 

roughly 2414.  Grey Slayers are for objectives, Vets outflank with their multimelta rhinos (hey its the only unit SW can actually use their acute senses on without taking a special character, how about that), terminators deep strike in. First turn Russ and 2 Dreads pod down on a flank so they arent exposed to all the enemy fire. I would expect turn 1 to lose a dread, maybe a wolfkin and maybe Russ has a few wounds on him, all told though, that isnt bad. Turn 2 Russ should charge something, the Wolfkin can charge something and the remaining dread charges something.

 

The nice thing about the list is with Russ' rules, the Vets are troop choices, the Gray Slayers are troops and the terminators score. So most of my army can score. I would say it is extremely Wolfy- I mean you have Russ, his wolves, you have units of his hardened warriors (Vets) that actually use acute senses and outflank (as somehow GW has never given SW the ability to outflank their army, even though they have acute senses) you have Grey Slayers (the bulk of the legion represented) and SW dreads (which always get alot of love in the novels) and the terminators are Russ' bodyguard. Could I flesh it out a bit more in 3k pts, yes, but I am not a fan of going that high point wise yet. If I bumpted it to 3k I would probably add in more termies, and maybe some ICs.

Edited February 18, 2017 by sturguard

[Runefyre]

You can't take rhinos in orbital assault I'm afraid. You're locked into taking pods for your vets, as they must star in a vehicle with deep strike, and must start in their dt if they take one.

 

So no outflanking vets