[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[Coptimas]

It's not legal, no Compulsory HQ. I like it though, anti armour, anti air, obs are looked after, blobs and deathstars can be dealt with, no psyker presence or good rerolls on DtW could hurt but not often. 

Edited February 18, 2017 by Coptimas

[sturguard]

Well if that is the case, then I guess I do this-

 

Russ

Wulfkin

Anvillus Drop Pod

 

3x Dreads, dual pfist, dual gravguns, 2 HK missiles in Legion Drop Pods

3x Vets, AA, 2x Missile Launcher, Machine Killers

5 Legion Terminators- plasmablaster, 3 combiplasma

2x Javelins with MM/CML

1 Lightning, 2xKraken, Phosphex Bomb Cluster, Battle Servitor

 

Now Russ drops down with 3 dreads, then the rest starts coming in turn 2.

[sturguard]

It's not legal, no Compulsory HQ. I like it though, anti armour, anti air, obs are looked after, blobs and deathstars can be dealt with, no psyker presence or good rerolls on DtW could hurt but not often. 

Now, as far as the compulsory, can I take a Damocles as the compulsory HQ? If so, then my rolls and deep striking would be better of course and solve some potential issues.

[sturguard]

You can't take rhinos in orbital assault I'm afraid. You're locked into taking pods for your vets, as they must star in a vehicle with deep strike, and must start in their dt if they take one.

 

So no outflanking vets

Runefyre you are incorrect, I just checked the rules.

 

orbital Strike says-

All units in the army that are eligible of taking a rhino as a dedicated transports MAY instead select a Legion Drop Pod. So I dont have to take them.

 

Outflanking Vets are back in!

[Caillum]

"Orbital Assault" doesn't allow any units that cannot Deep Strike. And the Damocles is specifically mentioned as being a non-Compulsory HQ. Maybe triple-check the rules before you triple-post. :P Edited February 18, 2017 by Caillum

[sturguard]

Dang it, okay so the vets have to go back in a pod. I also didnt account for the dreadnought drop pods cost over a legion drop pod, but the good news is I didnt think I could take Contemptor Cortus Class Dreads, which I can. The box dreads have +1 WS, and have a bit more shooting with the 2 HK missiles, but I think the contemptors abilities are better, +1 front armor, 5+ invul, and being able to add +1 to move and charge distances.

 

What do folks think of this setup-

dual pfist with dual graviton guns? Yes short range (18 inches) and small blast (no overwatch) but with the haywire they are almost always going to cause a hull point, even on armor 14 and against infantry heavy armies, I toss down difficult and dangerous terrain templates to slow them down. I like the idea of having 2 ccws, I think it makes them a huge threat to armor and even other dreads, especially since the contemptor can add 1 to its initiative and strike at 5. I am open to other configs however if someone has idea.

 

What about the vets? I could replace 2 GS units for a 5 man vet squad with a missile launcher. These would be objective grabbers (but on the other have a GS squad sitting in the backfield with all cc weapons takes itself out of the game essentially).

[Caillum]

Dual-grav Cortus is a tried and true loadout. Best thing is that their Graviton Pulse markers won't do a thing to them as they have Move Through Cover! But I take a chainfist on one arm (it isn't a specialist weapon in HH) for more anti-Tank.

 

OA seems to be one of the better options for The Rout. Grey Slayers (or Veterans when you take Russ) make up the second wave units, allowing you to put Leviathans and Dreadclaws full of nasties in the 1st Turn wave! :)

[Jarkaira]

Where are your chainfists? You never know when it would come handy to have can opener with you instead of banging huge box of ceramite with fists.

[Robzilla]

All the deathsworn math is in a vacuum. What happens when they get shot with plasma and never get to do anything? No invul, 1 wound, expensive. Id be interested to see the math in 10 Legion terminators with pfists against Dorn, I would suspect they beat him too and cost less than the Deathsworn. Another question that was not answered is how do you get all those models in base with just say Dorn and ignore his retinue?

The maths in a vacuum thing is all well and good, but discounting their effectiveness because out outside factors is foolishness.

 

It's like saying 'legion terminators are bad, because they will die to a vindicated shell half the time' or 'can't take suzerians, the opponent may have plasma.

 

I understand also that nine times out of ten, a primarch may have a retinue. Because often it would be daft not to (not always mind). But guess what? You have an army too, outside of that single 300pt unit. The same constraints you are putting in that neuter this units effectiveness, are the same as many other units out there barring a very small select few.

 

For example, sure, ten legion terminators with power fists fare well against Don, Assuming cataphractii, they will lose about 2 to 2.6 models, depending on his rampage, or charging bonus.

 

The remaining 8 (lets be generous) cause five wounds on the charge, or three wounds if charged.

Dorn lives.

 

So strictly speaking worse at this job than the deathsworn. At 40pts more expensive.

 

And as you keep pointing out, they are still one wound models. Sure an invulnerable may help, but they will still go down to weight of fire and AP2, so what's the point?

 

Plus there's the transport issue (minor issue for deathsworn, major for a 10 man terminator squad).

 

Does this mean terminators are bad? Of course not. Just like deathsworn aren't.

They are a tool to be used sensibly, and to good effect, depending on your opponents list, and the events that occur during the game.

 

Vacuum maths doesn't make something good.

 

But equally, and perhaps even more so, saying 'but it will just get shot' (or equivalent) doesn't make it bad.

[Jarkaira]

As we do live in post-truth era of mankind in which just feeling something is right makes it right it is hard to counter anything with hard facts no matter how waterproof they would be.

 

It is enough to feel SW is bad and nothing can change a person's view upon that if they feel so.

 

But how do I know it is so? Be cause I feel so :)

[sturguard]

Okay, I think this is now legal- 2500pt Orbital Strike- it currently sits at 2490

 

Russ                                                                                                      

Wolfkin                                                                                               

Anvillus Dreadclaw Drop Pod (FA)                                           

Centurion- Terminator Armor, GFB, combiplas                  

 

2x Contemptor Cortus, dual fist/grav                                     

2x Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod                                            

2x10 Vets, with Artificer Armor, Marksmen, Drop Pod   

 

Lightning                                                                                             

2 Javelins                                                                                            

5 Terminators, 2 pfist, plasmablaster, 2 combiplas            

5 Terminators, 2 pfist, plasmablaster, 2 combiplas

 

So Russ pods down with the Wolfkin and 2 Contemptors turn 1. Obviously I am not going to do alot of damage, so I attack a flank, be prepared to lose a contemptor and maybe 1 of the wolfkin, however, turn 2 is when the fun starts. Bad reserve rolls can hurt, however I think I have enough units that I will have something come on.

 

2 squads of vets are anti troop (non elites).

2 squads of termies- obviously elite infantry and light armor with the plasma

Centurion joins one of the termie squads

Lighting has the ability to pick on armor and elite infantry and provide some anti air.

 

What I dont like-

I am still spending 385 pts on transports that have no guns and offer no mobility after the drop. I guess that is just the  price of putting dreads in the list. Maybe that makes them a liability.  Thoughts?

[defl0]

I feel like we really got the short end of the stick out of Inferno. I mean, how can Varagyr be more expensive than Sekhmet who have 2w and can use their psychic powers to move 12 inches and throw S10 pie plate and be good enough in close combat to probably at least bring the varagyr with them in the grave if they fight each other.

 

We are an assault legion with rules to reflect that but we have some overpriced subpar special units who just can't justify the purchase of expensive assault transport.

 

I just can't see how I can win agaisnt my buddy's TS (who plays a least 2 squads of sekhmet) without playing a generic flavourless shooting heavy legion astartes list.. Even his HQ (ml3 biomancy praetor with 3++ save) can easily beat mine in a duel. I feel like the only way of having the upper hand in close combat is including Russ which I won't allways do.

 

Sorry for being a little whiny, I'm usually not this kind of guy but I felt like sharing my thought this time.

 

You can't look at them in a vacuum. The could easily be WS6, 5 attacks on the charge, wounding on 2+ w. AP3 at initiative or a powerfist and re rolling 1s to hit and wound plus you get the S5 hammer of wrath attack EACH. 

 

SWs is all about layering rules. 

[sturguard]

As we do live in post-truth era of mankind in which just feeling something is right makes it right it is hard to counter anything with hard facts no matter how waterproof they would be.

 

It is enough to feel SW is bad and nothing can change a person's view upon that if they feel so.

 

But how do I know it is so? Be cause I feel so

 

Bad is a subjective word, obviously. When compared to Custodes and 1k Sons, I think bad is pretty accurate word. However, when compared to alot of the other pre-existing legions, I would say SW are on par with most of them. The problem with them is alot of their rules have no synergy (and of course there are plenty of issues to be cleared up via FAQ). Now as far as Deathsworn, I don't like to play the "what if" scenario and take things in vacuum because that isnt realistic, especially comparing close combats. When you do that you assume that somehow the squad gets into combat with no losses, in a game of 30k which is geared more towards shooting than close combat, that is a big reach. When I also look at a squad you compare versatility- what happens if my opponent has no primarch, what happens if they have all tanks etc. Terminators are a more versatile unit than Deathsworn- they can have heavy weapons to shoot, they have an invulnerable save, they can at times deep strike without needs a transport. If you want to play Deathsworn, fantastic, I am sure there will be battles where they fare well, however, I think saying the are good because in a vacuum they can beat unit x.y and z in close combat is probably an overstatement in their value. This has nothing to do with are they good and do I like them.

 

Now my personal opinion is they are over priced for what they can do- just close combat. Again, this is all just my opinion take it with a grain of salt. I know in general what armies I will play against and my general meta, I don't know yours or anyone else.

[Robzilla]

SNIP

 

Very fair point here, and well put. I think they do cover different roles in a list, but I'd be a liar if I didn't say there was a degree of overlap.

Undoubtedly, terminators are the more versatile of the two, and I will agree they are a safer pick.

[Runefyre]

 

I feel like we really got the short end of the stick out of Inferno. I mean, how can Varagyr be more expensive than Sekhmet who have 2w and can use their psychic powers to move 12 inches and throw S10 pie plate and be good enough in close combat to probably at least bring the varagyr with them in the grave if they fight each other.

 

We are an assault legion with rules to reflect that but we have some overpriced subpar special units who just can't justify the purchase of expensive assault transport.

 

I just can't see how I can win agaisnt my buddy's TS (who plays a least 2 squads of sekhmet) without playing a generic flavourless shooting heavy legion astartes list.. Even his HQ (ml3 biomancy praetor with 3++ save) can easily beat mine in a duel. I feel like the only way of having the upper hand in close combat is including Russ which I won't allways do.

 

Sorry for being a little whiny, I'm usually not this kind of guy but I felt like sharing my thought this time.

 

You can't look at them in a vacuum. The could easily be WS6, 5 attacks on the charge, wounding on 2+ w. AP3 at initiative or a powerfist and re rolling 1s to hit and wound plus you get the S5 hammer of wrath attack EACH. 

 

SWs is all about layering rules. 

 

Only the theign gets 5 attacks on the charge, the rest max out at 4 (2 base, +1 2ccw, +1 charge bonus). I wouldn't factor fury of the pack bonus from Pale Hunters in there, it will almost never come into play. If I have to dedicate my expensive varagyr and another unit to take them down, either both units are screwed (If I don't have Russ) or I'm dedicated waaay too many points into that combat.

The HoW gimmick is really wonky. It's disappointing that if I want to use the bonus I have to intentionally reduce my chances of even making the charge.

 

And I don't see how WS6 and lots of attacks factor against a 3++ (or 4++ that can sweep advance), free force weapons, 2 wounds to pad against concentrated small arms fire, and the ability to take both tartaros and cataphractii terminator armour. And that's before we get to their psychic powers. All for the low low price of 5 justaerin terminators (who are worse by comparison as well).

 

The other thing is Varagyr don't gain any benefit from a good chunk of our rules (hunter's gait, no Hit and Run, can't be taken in Bloodied Claw) whereas Sekhmet have an insane RoW that is tailored specifically to using them.

 

On a different note, I'm wondering if Deathsworn shouldn't have a sergeant character (with WS5 and 3 attacks), 'cause otherwise the 50 point investment in the initial 5 models feels alot higher than other units.

 

I also want FW to not take forever with fixing Frost Weapons. Give swords rending or something.

 

And Pale Hunters should allow charge from outflank. That would be huge (but far from unbeatable, you just gotta stay away from the table edges).

[Purge the Daemon]

Only the theign gets 5 attacks on the charge, the rest max out at 4 (2 base, +1 2ccw, +1 charge bonus). I wouldn't factor fury of the pack bonus from Pale Hunters in there, it will almost never come into play. If I have to dedicate my expensive varagyr and another unit to take them down, either both units are screwed (If I don't have Russ) or I'm dedicated waaay too many points into that combat.

The HoW gimmick is really wonky. It's disappointing that if I want to use the bonus I have to intentionally reduce my chances of even making the charge.

 

And I don't see how WS6 and lots of attacks factor against a 3++ (or 4++ that can sweep advance), free force weapons, 2 wounds to pad against concentrated small arms fire, and the ability to take both tartaros and cataphractii terminator armour. And that's before we get to their psychic powers. All for the low low price of 5 justaerin terminators (who are worse by comparison as well).

 

The other thing is Varagyr don't gain any benefit from a good chunk of our rules (hunter's gait, no Hit and Run, can't be taken in Bloodied Claw) whereas Sekhmet have an insane RoW that is tailored specifically to using them.

 

On a different note, I'm wondering if Deathsworn shouldn't have a sergeant character (with WS5 and 3 attacks), 'cause otherwise the 50 point investment in the initial 5 models feels alot higher than other units.

 

I also want FW to not take forever with fixing Frost Weapons. Give swords rending or something.

 

And Pale Hunters should allow charge from outflank. That would be huge (but far from unbeatable, you just gotta stay away from the table edges).

Varagyr straight up get no benefit from either dedicated right of War. The +1 Attack should litterally never happen because no unit needs 600 points of terminators + characters + another unit charging in first just way to much dedication to one single combat. The toned down hit and run doesn't work on them and the consensus here is if you use power armoured characters to give it you are either that guy or it just shouldn't be allowed. Bloodied Claw furrious assault? Doesn't affect them at all and +1 combat resolution is extremely trash when most things they fight will be stubborn or fearless. They don't even benefit from half our legion rules. Why do we actually have unique terminators...

 

They also have a ludicrously high initial cost of 60 points for their sergeant uhm okay.

 

Deathsworn also have an insanely high cost especially if you want rad grenades on a small squad they are far to expensive.

 

And frost weapons are wonky the sword is a straight downgrade to claw axe is a straight down grade from a power fist. Which means only the great frost blade and claw are even use able. Claws aren't that great period only time I'd take it is +1A on Varagyr cause the other options suck more for it. At least the great frost blade has some use but it's super restricted to who can take it unlike power scythe which are the same weapon without master crafted but do cost less.

 

It will cost your Centurion 25 points to take a great frost blade a blade of perdition for comparison is 20.

[sturguard]

If I use the Primarchs Chosen Rite of War how many HQs would I need in my 2500 pt force, just 2?

 

I dont want to start a discussion about whether you think we are free to take the Rite of War, I am going to play according to Russ' rules which say if he is the warlord you can take Vets and Terminators as troops and my gaming group is fine with that.

 

So under Primarchs Chosen, he becomes the Warlord and Compulsory HQ. That means I would need another HQ as well per the 1 per 1000 pts rule for SW. I could use the Wolfkin to fill that HQ slot correct?

 

So all arguments aside on whether we could take Primarchs Chosen RoW- assuming I can, I need 2 HQs, and I have 2 (Russ and Wolfkin) is that correct?

 

Thanks

[Coptimas]

You would need 3 HQ's and thats what you have done. However, despite my agreeing that Russ is the warlord and a HQ choice, and that vets/Vara are compulsory troops choices, you still need an additional Praetor/Centurion as per our legion rules. I agree with all the rest and it's how I would interpret it.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Coptimas

[Purge the Daemon]

If I use the Primarchs Chosen Rite of War how many HQs would I need in my 2500 pt force, just 2?

 

I dont want to start a discussion about whether you think we are free to take the Rite of War, I am going to play according to Russ' rules which say if he is the warlord you can take Vets and Terminators as troops and my gaming group is fine with that.

 

So under Primarchs Chosen, he becomes the Warlord and Compulsory HQ. That means I would need another HQ as well per the 1 per 1000 pts rule for SW. I could use the Wolfkin to fill that HQ slot correct?

 

So all arguments aside on whether we could take Primarchs Chosen RoW- assuming I can, I need 2 HQs, and I have 2 (Russ and Wolfkin) is that correct?

 

Thanks

You always need a Praetor or Centurion as a compulsory HQ choice. First line of the army building is that is our only option for compulsory HQ and it is a MUST take option. (The text specifies must take) Edited February 18, 2017 by Purge the Daemon

[sturguard]

Yes but once again the Rite of War clearly says the Primarch becomes the compulsory HQ choice, which in theory over rides one of the Space Wolf rules saying that you need a Praetor or Centurion as the compulsory HQ. So who is the compulsory HQ- Russ per the RoW or the Praetor as per the SW rules.

 

The whole set of rules is a hot mess. If I am already over riding one of the SW rules saying that only Grey Slayers are compulsory troops, I might as well go all in and just take Russ as my compulsory HQ.

 

Read the Lord and Master rule for Primarchs Chosen.

 

I am not saying you guys are wrong and that I am right, I am just saying nothing is clear and it certainly could go either way.

 

I just wanted to make sure I had the correct number of HQs- which is at least something that is a bit clearer (though still not clear with all the discussion on it).

Edited February 18, 2017 by sturguard

[Nova_chron]

You would need 3 regardless due to having 2500 points. The rule states one HQ per 1000 or part thereof

 

Also compulsory HQ is not the same as must be warlord so while you have to have Russ as a compulsory due to primarch's chosen you will also have to have a centurion or praetor per our legion rules so in effect you have 2 compulsory HQ choices followed by a necessary one more due to being at 2500 points so your minimum is 3 HQ choices

Edited February 18, 2017 by Nova_chron

[Coptimas]

0 - 999 pts = 1 HQ, 1000 - 1999 pts = 2 HQ's, 2000 - 2999 pts = 3 HQ's

Edited February 18, 2017 by Coptimas

[Nova_chron]

It would actually be 0-1000 one, 1001-2000 two, 2001-3000 three, etc etc for our HQ requirements as until you break the 1000 point threshold on each you don't go up

[Coptimas]

It would actually be 0-1000 one, 1001-2000 two, 2001-3000 three, etc etc for our HQ requirements as until you break the 1000 point threshold on each you don't go up

 

Not according to our actual RAW, "1001-1999 points, at least two HQ choices must be included". Its ambiguous again.

[Purge the Daemon]

According to hersey 30k the wolf kin and command squads do not count as an HQ for us and apparently is just actual HQ choices. Apparently this is according to Alan's reply at the weekender. This just seems dumb as hell to me what do I want more characters for.

 

Also what is the purpose of the blurb saying they count as an HQ (specifically an HQ not characters) for the purposes of all special rules missions and objectives, like nothing actually affects HQ units specifically especially when they can never be your Warlord or are independent characters.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Purge the Daemon