Battle Report, RG/AM vs CSM warband

[Deliverance]

Eternal war

Crusade

Hammer & Anvil

 

1500v1500

Raven Guard & Astra Militarum vs Chaos SM Warband

 

So I wanted to use the following list

 

Captain with Swiftstrike & Murder, and Raven's Fury

5 Sternguard,

5 VV, Sgt with TH/SS, 4 with DLC

1 Land Speeder,

With a 10th Co,

5 Sniper scouts, with camo,

10 CCW scouts, split into 2 groups of 5, with their own multimelta LSS

 

However, in my haste to get to my local store, I forgot two speeders at home, so I had to work around and edit the list, so I ended up adding a melta to the Sternguard, adding camo cloaks to the other 10 scouts as well as having 5 more sniper scouts and a heavy Bolter in the main sniper unit, as the Chaos OpFor was cultist heavy. I had a cap of 750, so I also added a vet sgt with nihulis to use up some points and ended up giving the rest of the points to my AM comrade, because I was mostly at a loss with any other things I could tinker with.

 

So we went first and immediately went to work, seizing objectives, and taking shots at the chaos sorcerers that were embedded in cultist meat-shields.

 

Making a long story short, the scouts were incredibly effective infiltrated into terrain, I will see if I am able to upload some photos of the board.

 

 

 

The story of the game however, was my AM friend's manticore and Pask making short work of, well, everything chaos had to field. I made several precision shots on his Sorcerers, as well as my captain finishing off his Hellbrute (which enraged and charged me due to my Vet Sgt glancing him twice) and threatening to contest an objective at the bottom of the screen. Man, that Captain was about to go to work on those squishy cultists!

I never got to see my main hammer unit, the VV, in action. I was intent on bringing them in, then failed the reserve roll, then the Chaos player graciously conceded at the top of turn 3. The picture is from that moment, after he had lost his psykers and daemon prince, and several dozen cultists and a dozen or so marines

I didn't utilize the sternguard as well as I had hoped. The Prince was threatening to swoop right over to them and contest that objective until Pask said hello with 15 wounds, so I was keeping the Sternies back on the Obj.

The scouts performed admirably, exactly what I had wanted, especially from the Vet Sgt. I think I might have to make that little combo almost mandatory against light/medium armor armies

The captain didn't have much to show for my plan for him, but he did soak up a TON of enemy fire from cultists and marines during turn 1, when he was hidden partially behind some terrain and was sitting pretty with a beautiful cover save.

 

Moving onto the second game we played

 

1000/1000

RG/AM v CSM

 

Capt 140

SSM

RV

 

Libby 65

2. 25

Ex Tenebris 10

100

 

Scouts

Camo

Snipers x2

140

Vet Sgt, 10

Nihilis 15

25

305

 

VV basic 95

 

500

 

Game ended 12-9 VP in our favor due to LR forcing cultists off objective

 

So, I never have much dabbled with Psykers, and my opponent was bringing two, so I wanted to try the Libby out with divination, and I added the relic storm Bolter because I was digging the stat line on it.

OpFor brought a ton of chaos spawn this time around which ended up being really effective as he stole the initiative and ended up slicing through one unit of snipers during turn 1, although I did manage to land a few wounds with overwatch.

I moved my captain down the flank to engage his terminator armored sorc, which, after two turns of combat, ended with the sorc hacking him down, without taking a single wound himself. Poor rolling by me, and great rolling by Lou, the chaos player, led to that. I can chalk that one up to just poor target choice and poor luck. The captain usually performs very well for me

 

The librarian casted some nice beneficial powers for me, until my opponent couldn't see any of the AM tanks and dedicated 6 Lascannon shots to kill my Librarian, which he did in turn 2. So, that was a bummer as I wasn't able to really use the librarian much at all..:/

 

First unit of scouts were sliced and diced immediately due to a nice charge roll by some chaos spawn, I was over eager and infiltrated them a bit far ahead

 

Second unit of scouts did well, added some wounds on some spawn and eventually his warlord, and ended up holding a critical objective in our backfield after AM had moved up and erred by leaving it behind.

 

The basic VV squad came in turn 3 and surprise took an objective from the enemy (I was hoping for a turn 4 end, which wasn't the case) but were promptly shelled by two chaos predators and hellbrute, and then Lou brought his Terminator Librarian over to slice them into nothing.

 

All in all, it was a close game, I was carried by the AM player through the last turn and a half, and the game ended in 12-9 VP in the Good Guy's favor, due to Pask shooting a cultist unit just off an objective on the bottom of the last turn. Measured, the cultists were just about 1/8" away from controlling the objective, which, needless to say, Lou was simply catatonic about.

It was a fun game to (mostly) watch, as bad luck and bad deployments (as well as the expensive librarian experiment) really did me in.

 

Would love to hear some feedback, perhaps a list tweak or advice about the original 750 and the rough draft 750 I had to sling together, and any criticism about the 500 is also welcomed as long as it is constructive! Thanks guys, look forward to hearing back from some of you!

Edited September 25, 2016 by Deliverance

[Race Bannon]

Thank you for this!  My first thought was that at 500 points, two IC is one too many.  At such low points you'll either need more bodies, or a better way to deliver the firepower.  Rolls are rolls though and that's the one variable in any game that can ruin any plan.

[Deliverance]

Definitely, if had another unit of scouts or perhaps made the Veterans a little more killy, it would've been a better allocation of points, but hey, hindsight is 20/20

This upcoming weekend I have drill and won't be able to get any games in, but I'll definitely try for a game or two on Tuesday, probably 1000pts against Lou's chaos warband again

[GreyCrow]

Hey ! Wecome to the Ravenspire ! :D

 

So, like Race said, 500 points is very, very light in terms of points. 2 HQ will eat up a sizeable amount of this budget and limit your opportunities for a combined arms approach.

 

Despite the comments about lists like the Double Demi Company being easy mode due to 350-500 points of free transports, Marines are actually a very tough army to play because we have to manage both the macro (strategy, list building, what weapons you bring to the fight for which reasons) and the micro (tactics, movement, deployment) parts of the game quite efficiently in order to win the game. And that's because we have a crippling disadvantage : a low amount of bodies, meaning we have to be extra careful about what we do and when.

 

Due to recent evolutions in the game and in meta, Marines have also been "nerfed" in their survivability. High amount of AP2-3, larger amount of shots from non AP high S weapons. We can't count as much on the humble Marine to single handedly carry the game for us.

 

____

 

However, if we follow real life modern army design philosophies, we have real opportunities to make an army that shines, both in theming and effectiveness.

 

If we care less about the power armoured überman fantasy, and look at the units for what they really are, we observe the following :

- The advantage of Marine units lie in their good balance between survivability and firepower. Model per model, our units have greater survivability than comparable enemy units, as well as correct firepower.

- Therefore, when placed in situations to maximize their survivability (based on what counter weapons we prevent the enemy to bring), we have an advantage.

- Due to low model count however, our armies are very vulnerable for each casualty, and we have very hard counters for out units (being extremely vulnerable to AP2 on regular infantry, tanks that don't like being flanked, speedy units that are quite fragile)

 

Conclusion :

- Due to our advantage in survivability but low model count, we can maximize survivability by bringing units that require very different counters as well as units with wildly different efficiency zones. A well balanced combined arms approach can thus ensure the best possible attrition.

- Due to low model count, we can maximize effectiveness by delaying commiting vulnerable units by going second and using reserves to prevent the enemy from targeting the units.

- Our infantry being very efficient against other infantry but very expensive as well as lacking weapons to ensure a wider target engagement profile, we don't need to have too many of them.

- The different Arms should work in concert to maximize 

 

To that effect, I found that Arms of 400 to 500 points in lists gave a good balance between having enough oomph and enough variety.

To give you an example, imagine having 500 points of Whirlwinds with Thunderfire Cannons for an Artillery arm. 3 TFCs and 3 Whirlwinds are roughly 495 points. At this level, you get quite a brutal Artillery Arm.

 

Same goes for a shock assault force of 10 TH/SS Terminators. Dropped somewhere, they can really change the shape of the battlefield.

 

If you start looking at your army with this "arms" approach, you'll be able to make quite a few nice things ;)

[polkadragon]

I like your list, in fact I was going to use this as a 750 point list for an upcoming Escalation tournament.

 

However, when I punch it in, it seems to add up to 769 points instead of 750?

 

 

1500v1500
Raven Guard & Astra Militarum vs Chaos SM Warband

So I wanted to use the following list

Captain with Swiftstrike & Murder, and Raven's Fury
5 Sternguard,
5 VV, Sgt with TH/SS, 4 with DLC
1 Land Speeder,
With a 10th Co,
5 Sniper scouts, with camo,
10 CCW scouts, split into 2 groups of 5, with their own multimelta LSS

Edited October 11, 2016 by polkadragon

[Deliverance]

 

I like your list, in fact I was going to use this as a 750 point list for an upcoming Escalation tournament.

 

However, when I punch it in, it seems to add up to 769 points instead of 750?

 

 

1500v1500

Raven Guard & Astra Militarum vs Chaos SM Warband

 

So I wanted to use the following list

 

Captain with Swiftstrike & Murder, and Raven's Fury

5 Sternguard,

5 VV, Sgt with TH/SS, 4 with DLC

1 Land Speeder,

With a 10th Co,

5 Sniper scouts, with camo,

10 CCW scouts, split into 2 groups of 5, with their own multimelta LSS

 

Speaking of math problems, I'm getting 755! :(

Captain 140

Land Speeder 45

Stern guard 110

Vanguard Veterans 180

Sniper Scouts 70

CCW Scouts w LSS(MM) 105

CCW Scouts w LSS(MM) 105    

I'm getting 755, which is a noob mistake on my end as well :/

[polkadragon]

I like your list, in fact I was going to use this as a 750 point list for an upcoming Escalation tournament.

However, when I punch it in, it seems to add up to 769 points instead of 750?

1500v1500

Raven Guard & Astra Militarum vs Chaos SM Warband

So I wanted to use the following list

Captain with Swiftstrike & Murder, and Raven's Fury

5 Sternguard,

5 VV, Sgt with TH/SS, 4 with DLC

1 Land Speeder,

With a 10th Co,

5 Sniper scouts, with camo,

10 CCW scouts, split into 2 groups of 5, with their own multimelta LSS

Speaking of math problems, I'm getting 755!

Captain 140

Land Speeder 45

Stern guard 110

Vanguard Veterans 180

Sniper Scouts 70

CCW Scouts w LSS(MM) 105

CCW Scouts w LSS(MM) 105

I'm getting 755, which is a noob mistake on my end as well :/

Yeah I made a math error while pointing out your math error

FYi, I've since revised my 750 points list:

CAD

* Captain, Raven's Fury, Double Lightning Claw

* 5 Sniper Scouts (Vet. Serg with Nihilus)

* Landspeeder, Assault Cannon

* 5 Assault Marines

SSKT

* 5 CCW Scouts, LSS (MM)

* 5 CCW Scouts, LSS (MM)

* 5 Vanguard Veterans (TH/SS, 4 x double LC)

749 points

Note that this Escalation tournament allows for one less troop choice at the 750 point level, so my CAD only needs one troop choice

Edited October 12, 2016 by polkadragon

[Deliverance]

I like your list, in fact I was going to use this as a 750 point list for an upcoming Escalation tournament.

However, when I punch it in, it seems to add up to 769 points instead of 750?

1500v1500

Raven Guard & Astra Militarum vs Chaos SM Warband

So I wanted to use the following list

Captain with Swiftstrike & Murder, and Raven's Fury

5 Sternguard,

5 VV, Sgt with TH/SS, 4 with DLC

1 Land Speeder,

With a 10th Co,

5 Sniper scouts, with camo,

10 CCW scouts, split into 2 groups of 5, with their own multimelta LSS

Speaking of math problems, I'm getting 755!

Captain 140

Land Speeder 45

Stern guard 110

Vanguard Veterans 180

Sniper Scouts 70

CCW Scouts w LSS(MM) 105

CCW Scouts w LSS(MM) 105

I'm getting 755, which is a noob mistake on my end as well :/

Yeah I made a math error while pointing out your math error

FYi, I've since revised my 750 points list:

CAD

* Captain, Raven's Fury, Double Lightning Claw

* 5 Sniper Scouts (Vet. Serg with Nihilus)

* Landspeeder, Assault Cannon

* 5 Assault Marines

SSKT

* 5 CCW Scouts, LSS (MM)

* 5 CCW Scouts, LSS (MM)

* 5 Vanguard Veterans (TH/SS, 4 x double LC)

749 points

Note that this Escalation tournament allows for one less troop choice at the 750 point level, so my CAD only needs one troop choice

I like the list for sure! I find myself with so many list ideas and so little time to actually play any of them, which i think is a problem we all have, right? :D

Might you remove Nihilus and vet sgt and perhaps throw a flamer in with the assault squad? I know there seems to be mixed reviews but in the several games I've played since using a flamer with a bare bones jump squad, its been tremendous, i even managed to wound Abaddon with it :D

I only make the above point because for the armor you'll most likely face in a 750 game, two multimeltas and a TH should manage to take care of it, not to mention the Assault Cannon has the same S as Nihilus (if i am not mistaken,) although in larger point games, i usually always include Nihilus for the split fire capabilities.

[Deliverance]

Grey,

Sorry for the delayed response, been working and a buddy is home on leave from the US Navy so been catching up with him!

 

What you have to say is really spot on. SM are a tough dance to sort out, because we can't outshoot the shooty ones and we usually can't outchop the choppy ones! However, if you are stubborn like me, you usually end up trying to prove a point and outchop the choppy ones, and its even better when your dice rolls are gifted by Corax himself :P 

 

However, i view SM as a lance. A quick, hard alpha strike, used deftly and with care, will end an opponent quickly. Furthermore, with the RG fluff and Chapter Tactics, it lends even more credence to my view. We aren't meant to sit back and rely on artillery and bodies to drown the enemy, because on a point per model scale (as well as the fluff) SM are priced heavily. We, as SM players, face a heavy "tax" for our benefits - stat line of 4, 3+ et cetera, which can be easily countered. I'd even go as far to say that the most competitive lists for other armies are built with ganking SM in mind..

 

That leads into my main point, which is that we have a great unit that is multi-capable of accomplishing the mission - whether its surviving on an objective, or kicking the enemy out of the objective, and SM can be the heroes of the lore if used correctly - even the Space Wolves or Flesh Tearers don't charge directly into the heavy bolter line if they can use some cover to avoid getting lit up.

 

So what we have is a capable, survivable, living hero in each model, essentially. Now combine that with some great RG stuff like assaulting out of reserve and pin-pointing where those models can land and gank a squad of baddies, and you have the basis of what you should be doing, in my opinion, with Raven Guard. We aren't a shooty army, for the most part, ( i do love me some scouts holding the backcourt) we are meant to be behind the enemy, claws at the ready, before they even know it.

 

That combat doctrine is what i try to bring into my games when i play, and usually it works really well, and almost always, win or lose, its fun and enjoyable for me, because, at least for a turn or two, (and usually more,) there is some..drama to the game. Either my opponent or i are sweating, relying on a dice roll, or for that charge distance to have a certain outcome. It injects some life into the game for me as well as fitting my idea of the fluff of my favorite space marine force. 

 

 

Let me know what you guys think!

[Race Bannon]

Deliverance, that "drama" is why I play the game.  Very little games I've played do the same for me.  Maybe I'm biased?  Regardless, I'd rather lose and it be a literal nail-biter.  You know, "that one roll" that can make or break the game you know is about to happen (versus recalling when it did happen).

[Deliverance]

Race,

Exactly. I play the game for that action, that momentuous dice roll or whatever it may be. It's what makes the game fun for me. I enjoy 40k as a hobby, assuredly, but in a time where we can restart the video game or what have you, playing the game and injecting that "drama" and gravitas is what really pulls me in and keeps me coming back for sure

[Prot]

Interesting in theory but don't you think Marines (generally speaking) shoot better than they assault?

 

Do you think the Chapter Tactics can actually tip that balance? (using your example of Wolves, or something like... Daemonkin?)

[Race Bannon]

Generally speaking Marines *do* shoot better. The RG CT helps with positioning units toward attempting to be more effective, as I see it.

[Deliverance]

Marines do shoot better, but as we are Raven Guard, i think we are geared more towards assault, plus, close combat is just cooler :P