[HH1.0] Legio Custodes Tactica

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

The list seems littered with so many mistakes and ambiguities at the moment, it's a bit disappointing.

 

I'm thinking the 6 or 7 things aren't top bad.

[TompiQ]

The list seems littered with so many mistakes and ambiguities at the moment, it's a bit disappointing.

Yeah, it's slightly disheartening that inferno took so long yet still contains such glaring copy-paste issues.

 

Here's the jetbike images btw:

 

http://i1307.photobucket.com/albums/s588/mikefrench178/weekender%202017/20170204_113034_zpssxmsp7ev.jpg

 

http://i1307.photobucket.com/albums/s588/mikefrench178/weekender%202017/20170204_113030_zps5jgtkp0w.jpg

Edited February 7, 2017 by TompiQ

[Charlo]

 

 

Speaking of rules as written, jetbikes. We've seen the models, and it seems quite clear from them that a weapon upgrade replaces the bolter cannon. HOWEVER, RaW you get to upgrade the whole squad for 5/25 points, similar to LA veterans getting Melta Bombs for 25pts no matter the number of vets.

Clear, in your opinion. The model doesn't really indicate that it couldn't be given an extra weapon and the rules certainly imply the bolt cannon having an under/over slung attachment weapon, plus the cost of 25 points (!?!?) to replace to a Las thing is kinda crazy if you don't keep your current...

Well, there's a picture of the actual models with each weapon option literally on display, and they all occupy the same slot on the bike.

 

However, you're missing my second point. Re-read the rules for them. Any SQUADRON may upgrade its weapons for 5/25pts. RAW you pay 25 points in total, and your 3-6 jetbikes get las-pulsers. Thus I'm fine giving up the dual weapons.

 

Still, wish they had guardian spears...

 

 

Oh lawd okay that is per squad... Hot damn.

 

Why is that weird rule there then T_T

[TompiQ]

 

 

 

 

Speaking of rules as written, jetbikes. We've seen the models, and it seems quite clear from them that a weapon upgrade replaces the bolter cannon. HOWEVER, RaW you get to upgrade the whole squad for 5/25 points, similar to LA veterans getting Melta Bombs for 25pts no matter the number of vets.

Clear, in your opinion. The model doesn't really indicate that it couldn't be given an extra weapon and the rules certainly imply the bolt cannon having an under/over slung attachment weapon, plus the cost of 25 points (!?!?) to replace to a Las thing is kinda crazy if you don't keep your current...

Well, there's a picture of the actual models with each weapon option literally on display, and they all occupy the same slot on the bike.

 

However, you're missing my second point. Re-read the rules for them. Any SQUADRON may upgrade its weapons for 5/25pts. RAW you pay 25 points in total, and your 3-6 jetbikes get las-pulsers. Thus I'm fine giving up the dual weapons.

 

Still, wish they had guardian spears...

Oh lawd okay that is per squad... Hot damn.

 

Why is that weird rule there then T_T

"Future proofing", which is a bloody stupid considering the rule is part of the unit and not the jetbike itself, in which case it'd make sense.

 

My personal take on it is that the Agamatus originally had guardian spears, but that it was considered too op during playtesting and they toned it down to a power lance. Hence they would have had the guardian bolter too and the rule would've made sense. They just forgot to omit it and now excuse it as future proofing instead.

[Charlo]

Yeah, I really don't get why they don't have a G spear to be honest.

[nightwrench]

I wonder if there is a weapon option missing to upgrade each jetbike to a spear for x points.  If they had the ability to take the melta spears they would slag any tank (armored ceramite or not) when you take the pulse laser into account.  Then you have a STR6 AP2 squad hitting what ever came out on the charge. 

 

They would be an answer to almost every unit in the game.  Right now their weakness is against 2+ in CC.  I wish one could upgrade to a spear of some sort.  I also wish the jetbike was an option for Shield Captain.  That would be brutal and you would see three of them leading bike squads all over the field.

 

I really like the jetbikes more and more.  Maybe in 8th edition we can throw a melta bomb. 

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

I wonder if there is a weapon option missing to upgrade each jetbike to a spear for x points. If they had the ability to take the melta spears they would slag any tank (armored ceramite or not) when you take the pulse laser into account. Then you have a STR6 AP2 squad hitting what ever came out on the charge.

 

They would be an answer to almost every unit in the game. Right now their weakness is against 2+ in CC. I wish one could upgrade to a spear of some sort. I also wish the jetbike was an option for Shield Captain. That would be brutal and you would see three of them leading bike squads all over the field.

 

I really like the jetbikes more and more. Maybe in 8th edition we can throw a melta bomb.

A shield captain jetbike would be busted as hellllll.

.

 

 

 

...I love it.

[Charlo]

I even like just a squad of three with the bolt cannons.

 

9 BS5 S6 AP3 shots with heliothermic at 36"... Goodbye, automata!

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

I even like just a squad of three with the bolt cannons.

 

9 BS5 S6 AP3 shots with heliothermic at 36"... Goodbye, automata!

 

I mean....you still have to roll a 5 for castellex and then they have to fail on a 6 you are more likely not going to kill them with the helio rounds and just wound them to death.

[nightwrench]

I would upgrade to the Adrathic Devestator before I kept the bolt cannon.  The bolt cannon is good against light armor and marines with better range.  The detonation is still a toughness test and a bot only fails on a 6.

 

The devastator is the same strength but one less shot.  It is AP2 and will down multi wound terms and MC  more realiably.  I am considering one squad of 6 bikes with those.  I play both AoD and strait 40k with my heresy armies.  I run into a lot of MC in my games or way to many Salamander players.  Actually it will do better than the bolt cannon.  It has armorbane as well and is AP2 so that is the same as +1 on the chart.  It is worth the 5 points for the squad to lose 6 shots for guaranteed instant death.

 

You can also deal with armor 12/13 that much easier than you can with the bolt cannon.  Honestly you can threaten a Spartan even with the flare shield.  2d6+ str is an average of 12 versus the Spartan in the front arc.  With volume of fire you should strip some hull points off.  It will shred a Sicaran and predator.  A non ion-shield facing will also be a threat.  I think I have talked myself into one squad.  Dealing with bots is the main reason.  I know that at least two people in my group are going to be running 1k Sons and their bots.

Edited February 7, 2017 by nightwrench

[wildweasel]

 

 

 

 

 

Speaking of rules as written, jetbikes. We've seen the models, and it seems quite clear from them that a weapon upgrade replaces the bolter cannon. HOWEVER, RaW you get to upgrade the whole squad for 5/25 points, similar to LA veterans getting Melta Bombs for 25pts no matter the number of vets.

Clear, in your opinion. The model doesn't really indicate that it couldn't be given an extra weapon and the rules certainly imply the bolt cannon having an under/over slung attachment weapon, plus the cost of 25 points (!?!?) to replace to a Las thing is kinda crazy if you don't keep your current...

Well, there's a picture of the actual models with each weapon option literally on display, and they all occupy the same slot on the bike.

 

However, you're missing my second point. Re-read the rules for them. Any SQUADRON may upgrade its weapons for 5/25pts. RAW you pay 25 points in total, and your 3-6 jetbikes get las-pulsers. Thus I'm fine giving up the dual weapons.

 

Still, wish they had guardian spears...

Oh lawd okay that is per squad... Hot damn.

 

Why is that weird rule there then T_T

"Future proofing", which is a bloody stupid considering the rule is part of the unit and not the jetbike itself, in which case it'd make sense.

 

My personal take on it is that the Agamatus originally had guardian spears, but that it was considered too op during playtesting and they toned it down to a power lance. Hence they would have had the guardian bolter too and the rule would've made sense. They just forgot to omit it and now excuse it as future proofing instead.

I suspect (for reasons posted after your post) this is the case. Guardian spears would give them AP2 charges and more massed light infantry killing power. Especially since them just having vanilla power lances in an army that is virtually entirely specialist super rad kit is...thematically jarring. Like let the lance enhance their Hammer of Wrath in some fashion or something.

[TompiQ]

Idd, going to be bummed about the power lance for ages to come. Might even magnetize the lance so I can swap it for a spear for display purposes (and a faint hope that Mr Bligh changes his mind).

 

Regarding bikes with devestators, I imagine the most effective way to run them is by having Tribune Tankfudger (praesidium shield, paragon spear, digital lasers, cyber-familiar) as your warlord. 3 units of six, and then pick master of ambush as your trait. Proceed to infiltrate these four units (Tankfudger can hide solo and go on a killing spree by himself, because he's awesome) in prime positions. Wreck face, reap profit.

 

I'm still torn between them and the las-pulsers. Devestators means a secure 12 shots that are literally devastating vs most targets, average of 10 hits and an expected result of 2-4 dead automata a turn. But the pulsers have twice the range and so can play way safer...

 

Thoughts?

[nightwrench]

I am planning on running a squad of devastators and two squads of las-pulsers.  In larger games I have to deal with a Knight, Spartan and a Pravian with bots.  With the split fire you can actually target 4 units effectively.  Some games instead of the knight I have to deal with AV14 spam.  Spartan, Typhon and normal land raiders.  The typhon is not as scary against the jetbikes.  With proper positioning it should get at most 3 bikes.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

I think it's so weird the speeders don't have the pulsars or the devastator options. Shame I love their esthetic a ton.

[nightwrench]

The can upgrade the cannon to a twin linked devastator for a pretty steep point cost per model.

 

The concept of the Pallus is the same as the Javelin.  The Pallus has more survivability but less dakka for the cost.  I wish the Pallus had a secondary weapon.  For the amount of hull points and armor value and a 4++ it is comparable to the jet bikes but the bikes are a bit cheaper with a better weapon. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

With Valdor, would the rule not have to say "with the Legio Custodes special rule" to keep dread out and explicitly allow a unit with that rule to qualify for it? Right now it's just a Legion Custode Unit, which doesn't mean a unit with the legio custodes rule. Just like a Legiones Astartes unit doesn't mean "a unit with the Legiones Astartes rule". Every other example of where that rule is required will actually say it needs a unit with the rule specifically. An example from Inferno itself is Ahrimanl:his warlord trait rule explicitly requires a unit with the "Legiones Astartes (Thousand Sons) special rule" to qualify.

 

Here's the thing though...rules wise, nothing actually defines what a Legio Custodes unit is, aside from having a special rule called Legio Custodes. Why would Shadow of the Throne need to specify that Valdor gets it, if there's no difference between models with and without the rule? Its not like there's a Legio Custodes Army List  to simply say "man you're being super nit-picky; everything in the list is a Legio Custodes unit". IMO they meant to say "a unit with Legio Custodes special rule" just like for LA stuff, but dropped the ball. Honestly, the entire Talons list has been pretty low-quality in terms of polish  

 

 

The list seems littered with so many mistakes and ambiguities at the moment, it's a bit disappointing.

 

I'm thinking the 6 or 7 things aren't top bad.

 

 

They delayed the book so many times to make sure it was done properly and we got a lot of problems. Ambiguity and vagueness is one thing, since language can be annoying and what you think makes sense in your head actually has multiple meanings. Not having weapon profiles is kind of a huge thing though.  

[TompiQ]

The Pallas being able to always jink thanks to its machine spirit is great, but it lacks any CC potential (obviously) and will sweat as soon as it faces a Sicaran. They aren't bad but I much prefer the bikes which I reckon are more survivable in general (can't be 1 hit KO:d except for actual instant death weaponry, 2+ save vs any non-ap2 weaponry, 5++ without ID risk vs those that are).

 

I've settled on the Corvae Las-Pulsers over the devestators. 18 of them in combination with three Caladius means I can stay back and use my full damage potential without putting my bikes at risk vs plasma etc. as well as weight of fire from lesser weaponry. That coupled with their speed means I'll get to dictate the flow of battle vs almost any enemy.

 

I am however considering swapping some of my custodian troops for sisters to free up points as well as provide some anti-psyker potential, in which case I might go Tankfudger over Valdor for the infiltration WL trait anyway. Being able to position those 18-54(avrg 36) lascannon shots on side armour turn 1 is nasty... Definitely shifts my list towards gunline over generalist if I lose deep striking custodians, since those are my major CC threats vs medium marine units... I'd probably want to keep 2 squads for the arae-shrikes though. Gah, give me my bikes so I can playtest!

[Charlo]

Sisters can infiltrate anyway if you want, with a nuncio... Then Valdor brings in the Banana boys with teleport :D

[Unknown Legionnaire]

By the way, did Ixion Hale come with a set of his own personalized rules ? Or is he just a stock Custodes Shield Captain ?

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm definitely a huge fan of tank-tribunes and the jetbikes. Really hoping that they're not crazy expensive in $ like the pallas is.

[Lonewolf86]

The Pallas being able to always jink thanks to its machine spirit is great, but it lacks any CC potential (obviously) and will sweat as soon as it faces a Sicaran. They aren't bad but I much prefer the bikes which I reckon are more survivable in general (can't be 1 hit KO:d except for actual instant death weaponry, 2+ save vs any non-ap2 weaponry, 5++ without ID risk vs those that are).

 

I've settled on the Corvae Las-Pulsers over the devestators. 18 of them in combination with three Caladius means I can stay back and use my full damage potential without putting my bikes at risk vs plasma etc. as well as weight of fire from lesser weaponry. That coupled with their speed means I'll get to dictate the flow of battle vs almost any enemy.

 

I am however considering swapping some of my custodian troops for sisters to free up points as well as provide some anti-psyker potential, in which case I might go Tankfudger over Valdor for the infiltration WL trait anyway. Being able to position those 18-54(avrg 36) lascannon shots on side armour turn 1 is nasty... Definitely shifts my list towards gunline over generalist if I lose deep striking custodians, since those are my major CC threats vs medium marine units... I'd probably want to keep 2 squads for the arae-shrikes though. Gah, give me my bikes so I can playtest!

 

Yeah I think looking at the two on paper, the jetbikes look a better unit than the Pallas speeders. Pricing too-they are 180 pounds for three of them!

 

It's a shame I want to order some custodes stuff but apart from the dreadnought and the Calladius is there anything else 'essential'. How do you see the coronus being used? It's not particularly well armed and isn't an assault vehicle. Won't it be better to deep strike in infantry and save points? Might be good for a Sagittarum squad?

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

 

 

The Pallas being able to always jink thanks to its machine spirit is great, but it lacks any CC potential (obviously) and will sweat as soon as it faces a Sicaran. They aren't bad but I much prefer the bikes which I reckon are more survivable in general (can't be 1 hit KO:d except for actual instant death weaponry, 2+ save vs any non-ap2 weaponry, 5++ without ID risk vs those that are).

 

I've settled on the Corvae Las-Pulsers over the devestators. 18 of them in combination with three Caladius means I can stay back and use my full damage potential without putting my bikes at risk vs plasma etc. as well as weight of fire from lesser weaponry. That coupled with their speed means I'll get to dictate the flow of battle vs almost any enemy.

 

I am however considering swapping some of my custodian troops for sisters to free up points as well as provide some anti-psyker potential, in which case I might go Tankfudger over Valdor for the infiltration WL trait anyway. Being able to position those 18-54(avrg 36) lascannon shots on side armour turn 1 is nasty... Definitely shifts my list towards gunline over generalist if I lose deep striking custodians, since those are my major CC threats vs medium marine units... I'd probably want to keep 2 squads for the arae-shrikes though. Gah, give me my bikes so I can playtest!

Yeah I think looking at the two on paper, the jetbikes look a better unit than the Pallas speeders. Pricing too-they are 180 pounds for three of them!

 

It's a shame I want to order some custodes stuff but apart from the dreadnought and the Calladius is there anything else 'essential'. How do you see the coronus being used? It's not particularly well armed and isn't an assault vehicle. Won't it be better to deep strike in infantry and save points? Might be good for a Sagittarum squad?

I have no idea how to use the tank it's so underwhelming compared to every other entry. Why is it less armored than the caladius?

 

I guess I can see it with tanktribune with squad of the sagittarum! He tanks for them when they hop out and fire their death beams and dare anyone to charge them all while tanking with the 3++ reroll and giving minus 1 To hit the unit. He then splits off and the sagittarum can stand and blast (i hate that they have nothing to get around their guns being heavy).

[TompiQ]

Sisters can infiltrate anyway if you want, with a nuncio... Then Valdor brings in the Banana boys with teleport :D

I completely overlooked the fact that they could take nuncios! Hot diggity dang, I need me some sisterinos in my lists.

 

Yeah I think looking at the two on paper, the jetbikes look a better unit than the Pallas speeders. Pricing too-they are 180 pounds for three of them!

 

It's a shame I want to order some custodes stuff but apart from the dreadnought and the Calladius is there anything else 'essential'. How do you see the coronus being used? It's not particularly well armed and isn't an assault vehicle. Won't it be better to deep strike in infantry and save points? Might be good for a Sagittarum squad?

My main gripe with the Coronus is the price in pounds. Beyond that it is actually quite worthwhile for its price - 135 points is roughly equivalent to a lascannon predator with bolter sponsons, and you get a flare shield, an extra hull point and stronger secondary weaponry as well as an equal/stronger main gun (one less str, one higher ap. Also exoshock). On top of this it's a fast skimmer that can carry 6 of the Emperors finest.

 

I'd definitely take one for Saggitarum, but they could also form a great vehicle based army providing target saturation together with Caladius tanks. 3 Caladius and 2 Coronus with 3 custodians each is 1185 points and a great basis for a mechanized Talons list. Sprinkle in sisters for more scoring (either in their own transports or infiltrating/outflanking) or dreadnoughts for more high AV fronts. Fast attack can be Pallas or Jetbikes depending on taste, both will see an increased survival rate thanks to target saturation.

I guess I can see it with tanktribune with squad of the sagittarum! He tanks for them when they hop out and fire their death beams and dare anyone to charge them all while tanking with the 3++ reroll and giving minus 1 To hit the unit. He then splits off and the sagittarum can stand and blast (i hate that they have nothing to get around their guns being heavy).

I would actually run the Tankibune with a sisters squad. The acquisitor is an assault vehicle, and has room for 12... Run a 10-woman strong Oblivion Knight Cadre and Tankibune, have him tank for the squishy ladies or split off to charge on his own. Edited February 8, 2017 by TompiQ

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

I will likely be doing my best to run pure custodes. It's my version of rule of cool but great point about the sisters having assault vehicle. Won't likely pick up the glorious death zepplin as it looks large and pricey.

[Lonewolf86]

 

Sisters can infiltrate anyway if you want, with a nuncio... Then Valdor brings in the Banana boys with teleport

I completely overlooked the fact that they could take nuncios! Hot diggity dang, I need me some sisterinos in my lists.

 

Yeah I think looking at the two on paper, the jetbikes look a better unit than the Pallas speeders. Pricing too-they are 180 pounds for three of them!

 

It's a shame I want to order some custodes stuff but apart from the dreadnought and the Calladius is there anything else 'essential'. How do you see the coronus being used? It's not particularly well armed and isn't an assault vehicle. Won't it be better to deep strike in infantry and save points? Might be good for a Sagittarum squad?

My main gripe with the Coronus is the price in pounds. Beyond that it is actually quite worthwhile for its price - 135 points is roughly equivalent to a lascannon predator with bolter sponsons, and you get a flare shield, an extra hull point and stronger secondary weaponry as well as an equal/stronger main gun (one less str, one higher ap. Also exoshock). On top of this it's a fast skimmer that can carry 6 of the Emperors finest.

 

I'd definitely take one for Saggitarum, but they could also form a great vehicle based army providing target saturation together with Caladius tanks. 3 Caladius and 2 Coronus with 3 custodians each is 1185 points and a great basis for a mechanized Talons list. Sprinkle in sisters for more scoring (either in their own transports or infiltrating/outflanking) or dreadnoughts for more high AV fronts. Fast attack can be Pallas or Jetbikes depending on taste, both will see an increased survival rate thanks to target saturation.

I guess I can see it with tanktribune with squad of the sagittarum! He tanks for them when they hop out and fire their death beams and dare anyone to charge them all while tanking with the 3++ reroll and giving minus 1 To hit the unit. He then splits off and the sagittarum can stand and blast (i hate that they have nothing to get around their guns being heavy).

I would actually run the Tankibute with a sisters squad. The acquisitor is an assault vehicle, and has room for 12... Run a 10-woman strong Oblivion Knight Cadre and Tankibute, have him tank for the squishy ladies or split off to charge on his own.

 

 

 

Sisters can infiltrate anyway if you want, with a nuncio... Then Valdor brings in the Banana boys with teleport

I completely overlooked the fact that they could take nuncios! Hot diggity dang, I need me some sisterinos in my lists.

 

Yeah I think looking at the two on paper, the jetbikes look a better unit than the Pallas speeders. Pricing too-they are 180 pounds for three of them!

 

It's a shame I want to order some custodes stuff but apart from the dreadnought and the Calladius is there anything else 'essential'. How do you see the coronus being used? It's not particularly well armed and isn't an assault vehicle. Won't it be better to deep strike in infantry and save points? Might be good for a Sagittarum squad?

My main gripe with the Coronus is the price in pounds. Beyond that it is actually quite worthwhile for its price - 135 points is roughly equivalent to a lascannon predator with bolter sponsons, and you get a flare shield, an extra hull point and stronger secondary weaponry as well as an equal/stronger main gun (one less str, one higher ap. Also exoshock). On top of this it's a fast skimmer that can carry 6 of the Emperors finest.

 

I'd definitely take one for Saggitarum, but they could also form a great vehicle based army providing target saturation together with Caladius tanks. 3 Caladius and 2 Coronus with 3 custodians each is 1185 points and a great basis for a mechanized Talons list. Sprinkle in sisters for more scoring (either in their own transports or infiltrating/outflanking) or dreadnoughts for more high AV fronts. Fast attack can be Pallas or Jetbikes depending on taste, both will see an increased survival rate thanks to target saturation.

 

True it does have some merits. I think I will pick one up when Inferno comes up for order (hopefully Friday) along with a Caladius and the dreadnought. I will hold back on more than one Caladius as the second weapon option looks better and I doubt FW will be selling the turret as an upgrade!!