++ The Bringers of Despair - A Black Legion Community ++

[Wayniac]

It is; it says so in the first HH black book. No worries there.

 

Besides, we know that there's at least a certain amount of modularity to cataphractii-pattern armor. Look at the Blightlords; all of the marines in that kit were wearing full suits of it at one point. It's still possible that the suit he's wearing in 40k is based around the same exoskeleton.

 

As for Falkus, at the risk of being labeled a terrible nitpicker I wanna say that while it's possible - and definetely likely - for him to wear a jury-rigged subtype of terminator armor, there's no definite proof of him doing so. Also, where's that lore blurb about Horus stockpiling Indomitus armor from? I've never heard about that before.

The only thing remotely similar to that is the notion that Horus ensured that the forces loyal to him got "the best equipment" (which is why a lot of the traitors had MkIV armor) prior to the heresy.

 

I always thought that Indomitus pattern Terminator Armor wasn't heavily used during the heresy, but from looking it up that appears to either have been incorrect or a retcon since it seems to have come out around that timeframe after all.  Same with MkVII armor which apparently came out around the Siege of Terra (so would have been only for the Loyalists) even though that just seems incredibly weird.

[BrainFireBob]

@AHorriblePerson:

 

That's old fluff, explaining why Chaos Terminators exist and why their armor is the same as loyalist- Horus made sure the newest and best went to his armies first, and raided the "storehouses of new Terminator armor on Mars". We're talking thin red book age fluff, so far as I'm aware- maybe even 2nd edition.

 

Later, this armor began to be described as "Indomitus" or Mark III Terminator armor, to differentiate it from the old, rather horrid Rogue Trader mark.

 

Step in FW with the Horus Heresy material, book I they invent Cataphractii armor.

 

So, by combining two old plot elements- Chaos still had a disproportionate amount of Terminator armor because Horus plundered the storehouses and made sure the "new" Terminator armor went to his supporters first- and the fact that all the models were in what became labeled as Indomitus armor, Horus disseminated Indomitus armor as it was the newest and the best.

 

Really, Indomitus armor needs a description along the lines of being the easiest to maintain, making it the Mark V "Heresy" analog. Mark V armor was a kit-bash of primarily Mark IV (the most advanced as a core) which turned out to be difficult to maintain when the supply chain was disrupted, with bits of older marks that were readily available and cross compatible. I really do enjoy the image of a lot of marines not understanding what all the "extra" plugs on their armor are for; when they're to connect features that older marks didn't support and are still being built in by the copy-exact Mechanicum.

 

Either Indomitus was the terminator suit that resulted out of the Heresy- say, it's what you get when you repair Cataphractii with Tartaros parts and slap on extra armor plates to hide the gaps, or start modifying Cataphractii plate to increase mobility- or it was becoming the standard mark already. Either way, it explains why Loyalists and Chaos both still have it- it's the easiest to maintain.

 

I confess, these are the kinds of details I really enjoy in my scifi/fantasy stories. Horus launched a wildly successful initial rebellion, but ran into trouble. Horus had quietly horded the latest and best technology for his supporters. Horus had an initial edge. Horus then ran into a supply chain problem, and his brothers using "outdated" gear didn't nearly so much.

 

Similarly, I'm hoping that the Battle for Terra results in another Black Rage event- that the Blood Angels going full on Angry Marine en masse is unanticipated by the traitors, and it offsets the advantage of their daemons. Their being on the front lines and not really observed by other loyalists creates some serious story potential- have Dorn be surprised that their "delaying rearguard action" is still a full fledged battle two days in, even though contact has been apparently been lost with many units, with Rage-embracing Blood Angels taking on the entire traitor force with bullet, blade, fist, and teeth. 

 

Then again, I'm enough of a romantic to enjoy the concept that the Blood Angels haven't fallen to Khorne for the same reason Khaine didn't- they're blessed with a perfect, pure, unalloyed rage, and Slaanesh and Khorne are incidentally at loggerheads over them as a result.

[Closet Skeleton]

I am sure Abaddon is in Cataphractii when Termies up in ADB’s books, though I could be wrong. I always assumed that he had a new suit of Indomitus refitted//resized/built for him at some point in the eye.

 

Its cataphracti by name in the text, no actual description is given.

 

 

I bet his cataphractii was special built for him anyway in the heresy...

I assume he has special built custom armour which is cataphracti enough to be called that. His current armour is another custom suit so despite being more Indomitus style isn't any pattern.

 

It is; it says so in the first HH black book. No worries there.

 

Besides, we know that there's at least a certain amount of modularity to cataphractii-pattern armor. Look at the Blightlords; all of the marines in that kit were wearing full suits of it at one point. It's still possible that the suit he's wearing in 40k is based around the same exoskeleton.

 

As for Falkus, at the risk of being labeled a terrible nitpicker I wanna say that while it's possible - and definetely likely - for him to wear a jury-rigged subtype of terminator armor, there's no definite proof of him doing so. Also, where's that lore blurb about Horus stockpiling Indomitus armor from? I've never heard about that before.

 

Blightlords are in full cataphracti with the exception of some shoulder pads (as is the Dark Imperium Lord of Contagion). Presumably the Death Guard legion just favours Cataphracti the way they favour the similarly outdated Mark III.

 

There's no blurb about Horus stockpiling Indomitus armour because it predates terminator armour having names. Lore about Horus stockpiling terminator armour and those suits being what chaos terminators wear goes back to the very introduction of chaos terminators. When Indomitus was the only design of terminator being shown in artwork it was stated that terminator suits were often relics going back to before the heresy.

 

The history of power armour marks comes from Rogue trader at the point where the original armour got designated as Mark VI and the new standard Mark VII was released. But for years until cataphracti was designed for the Horus heresy card game terminator armour was just terminator armour and it was all ancient relics.

 

 

I always thought that Indomitus pattern Terminator Armor wasn't heavily used during the heresy, but from looking it up that appears to either have been incorrect or a retcon since it seems to have come out around that timeframe after all.  Same with MkVII armor which apparently came out around the Siege of Terra (so would have been only for the Loyalists) even though that just seems incredibly weird.

 

 

Mark VII being a heresy era suit is a little less weird when you recognize that the standard modern power armour you get in plastic kits isn't actually Mark VII, its a hybrid made of mostly Mark VI and VII parts with some Mark IV parts. Only in 2nd ed was Mark VII actually the normal armour type.

[Marshal Loss]

It is mentioned in Black Legion that Abaddon has already begun to make alterations to the suit of armour he wore during the Heresy - presumably ADB inserted this to justify a slow change to the Indomitus styled suit he wears in 40k.

 

 

Abaddon wore his battleplate – once the dark wargear of the Justaerin, though in the unreliable timelessness since the destruction of Horus Reborn he had already made several modifications. Another aspect that set Abaddon apart from many of our brothers was his refusal to rely on armourcraft slaves. Abaddon refused to let anyone tend to the maintenance and modification of his black war-plate. The trophies that hung from his armour were all those he had ­hammered into place himself. The trinkets and charms were those he had carved or fashioned. The repaired patches and sections of reinforcement were each done by his own hand. A legionary has no choice but to let machines and thralls aid in his armouring, when the ceramite plates must be mounted and driven and drilled into place, but that was the limit of Abaddon’s tolerance.

[Deadass]

 

There's no blurb about Horus stockpiling Indomitus armour because it predates terminator armour having names. Lore about Horus stockpiling terminator armour and those suits being what chaos terminators wear goes back to the very introduction of chaos terminators. When Indomitus was the only design of terminator being shown in artwork it was stated that terminator suits were often relics going back to before the heresy.

 

I'm aware. Putting the new lore into that context could easily mean that Horus stockpiled Tartaros-, Indomitus- or Saturnine-pattern armor, or maybe even all of them since they were developed simultaneously. You specifically mentioned Indomitus earlier, that's why I asked for a source.

 

@BrainFireBob - the reason why Indomitus-pattern armor is the most widespread suit of terminator armor available is fairly simple - it's the only type that the Adeptus Mechanicus at large still has the schematics for. The rest must either have been forgotten, destroyed or hidden away.

 

Marshal Loss provided a quote for the in-universe explaination of Abaddon seemingly switching from Cataphractii to Indomitus, and that's the one I tried to explain aswell. Ten thousand years of warfare simply forced Abaddon to replace his armor plating with what was available, most of which was of course Indomitus-pattern. Him having another custom-fitted suit built doesn't make any sense. The actual explaination is as we all know a lot simpler: He's been the figurehead of an entire faction, and his miniature and artwork have depicted him as wearing Indomitus armor for over twenty years. It's iconic, that's why.

 

 

Either way, I feel like we're going off-topic. Something else I've been meaning to ask is wether anyone here has seen any attempts at converting members of the Ezekarion besides Khayon, Lheor and Falkus? I want to get around to that aswell someday and would like to see what has been done already.

[Furnace Lord]

The way Ceraxia is described, I feel like a Lord Discordant could provide the base for a conversion of her. Such a conversion is beyond my powers, but I'd love to see one.

[Excessus]

Such a conversion is beyond my powers, but I'd love to see one.

 

We all start somewhere... ;)

[Furnace Lord]

 

Such a conversion is beyond my powers, but I'd love to see one.

 

We all start somewhere...

 

I'm a patient man, one project at a time. Small steps corrupt :)

[Midnightmare]

The way Ceraxia is described, I feel like a Lord Discordant could provide the base for a conversion of her. Such a conversion is beyond my powers, but I'd love to see one.

That would be awesome!!

 

*hamster starts wheel turning*

[Excessus]

 

 

Such a conversion is beyond my powers, but I'd love to see one.

 

We all start somewhere...

 

I'm a patient man, one project at a time. Small steps corrupt

 

 

A little kitbash here, a little weapon swap there...suddenly there's green stuff in the mix... :D

[Closet Skeleton]

@BrainFireBob - the reason why Indomitus-pattern armor is the most widespread suit of terminator armor available is fairly simple - it's the only type that the Adeptus Mechanicus at large still has the schematics for. The rest must either have been forgotten, destroyed or hidden away.

 

Marshal Loss provided a quote for the in-universe explaination of Abaddon seemingly switching from Cataphractii to Indomitus, and that's the one I tried to explain aswell.

 

 

The admech don't make Space Marine armour, chapter serf artificers do. Chaos don't seem to have Dark Mechanicum guys on hand to maintain their armour either at least in ADB novels.

There's contradictory HH setting art on what kind of armour Abaddon is wearing. Of course he may just have multiple suits, most noblemen in armour wearing cultures did.

[Midnightmare]

My guys had a little outing this afternoon, posed for some photos, picked some daisies, had a picnic and Abaddon tore Ahriman limb from limb then Drach’nyen ate his soul.

http://i.imgur.com/601lyNs.jpg

Drach’nyen claims that powerful soul!

http://i.imgur.com/joir7Lq.jpg

Had a look at the new Shadowspear stuff too, by the Dark Gods they are even more awesome in the flesh!

[Deadass]

 

@BrainFireBob - the reason why Indomitus-pattern armor is the most widespread suit of terminator armor available is fairly simple - it's the only type that the Adeptus Mechanicus at large still has the schematics for. The rest must either have been forgotten, destroyed or hidden away.

 

Marshal Loss provided a quote for the in-universe explaination of Abaddon seemingly switching from Cataphractii to Indomitus, and that's the one I tried to explain aswell.

 

 

The admech don't make Space Marine armour, chapter serf artificers do. Chaos don't seem to have Dark Mechanicum guys on hand to maintain their armour either at least in ADB novels.

There's contradictory HH setting art on what kind of armour Abaddon is wearing. Of course he may just have multiple suits, most noblemen in armour wearing cultures did.

 

 

Of course the AdMech produces space marine power armor. There's a part in one of Nick Kyme's Salamander novels where they recover a forge ship full of it.

And I've honestly not seen HH-era art of Abaddon wearing anything but cataphractii, or armor that would eventually be known as cataphractii.

 

The way Ceraxia is described, I feel like a Lord Discordant could provide the base for a conversion of her. Such a conversion is beyond my powers, but I'd love to see one.

 

Oh yeah, definetely. Anacharis Scoria from FW would be another good base for her I think.

I have yet to see anyone having a go at Telemachon, which surprises me considering we've got art for him and all.

[Marshal Rohr]

Is anyone else in the US getting inordinately long delays in delivery for Shadowspear? Mine is scheduled to be delivered on the 25th.

[Gederas]

Is anyone else in the US getting inordinately long delays in delivery for Shadowspear? Mine is scheduled to be delivered on the 25th.

Not for me. Mine showed up at my FLGS (non-GW even) yesterday.

 

... But that might also be because the actually had over a dozen ordered, and I was the only one who hadn't paid for their box (I paid for the two I split last Friday, paid for my full one yesterday) so they kind HAD to ship all them. :lol:

[Akylas]

Is anyone else in the US getting inordinately long delays in delivery for Shadowspear? Mine is scheduled to be delivered on the 25th.

Mine shows as arriving on the 27th. It's shipped already so that seems a bit unlikely unless they expect it to get lost in the warp an extra week or something. :p

[Marshal Rohr]

I’m only one state away from Memphis so I’m a little miffed to be sure

[Deadass]

Well, I got my copy of Shadowspear today. Gonna put the Obliterators together soon, but I'll have to wait for my legion torsos to arrive before I can build some marines... I also need to find a shop that sells small chains, as I need some for the marines' mirror coins.

[Furnace Lord]

A small rules and modeling question, as I have been out of the game for a while. If a unit of Chaos Marines has a mark, does it need to be represented on the model in some way? Do you differentiate your marked models in any special way? I am considering simply keeping the Black Legion paint scheme, but painting the shoulder pads a different color and putting the mark on one. Say, red for Khorne and Mark of Khorne on one shoulder, Eye of Horus on the other.

[Panzer]

You don't have to anything but as always the less confusing it is for you and the opponent the better. Painting the shoulder pads a different colour would be perfectly sufficient imo.

[Prot]

I’ve had a recent proxy game with the new stuff as Black Legion vs Dark Eldar and although I won, I got basically tabled.

 

I’m still going forward with the plan, but I did find Abaddon ( in his current iteration) to be a difficult fit for the Black

Legion Daemonkin.

 

I think a potential fix would be some Terminator enhancements. Although everything (as I write this) feels too expensive. I’m hoping this is fixed but at the same time I am a little worried that Abaddon comes in a little too jacked up. While I notice some people want him capable of ripping apart Ultramarines and Guilliman, I prefer to keep him cheap.

 

Looking forward to all of these releases. The HQ choices feel insanely difficult to decide on and at the same time I feel like we are entering a very anti character meta in the game.

[Midnightmare]

I actually like Abaddon in his current form (ruleswise!), although I know I am in the minority. I find he can have a go at most things, he has good auras and adds CP’s. I like how Drach’nyen is similar to the old Daemon Weapon rules, which again, I think I am in the minority. So, I am hoping only for a couple of extra wounds maybe and/or toughness as much more, I agree with Prot, would make him cost prohibitive. The one thing I really want him to keep is deepstrike, with him being at the tip of the spear and all, though I would also be miffed if he lost access to riding his Land Raiders.

[the emperor is scottish]

I’ve had a recent proxy game with the new stuff as Black Legion vs Dark Eldar and although I won, I got basically tabled.

 

I’m still going forward with the plan, but I did find Abaddon ( in his current iteration) to be a difficult fit for the Black

Legion Daemonkin.

 

I think a potential fix would be some Terminator enhancements. Although everything (as I write this) feels too expensive. I’m hoping this is fixed but at the same time I am a little worried that Abaddon comes in a little too jacked up. While I notice some people want him capable of ripping apart Ultramarines and Guilliman, I prefer to keep him cheap.

 

Looking forward to all of these releases. The HQ choices feel insanely difficult to decide on and at the same time I feel like we are entering a very anti character meta in the game.

I don't see this happening. I think this guy will be a proper lord of war possibly on primarch power level. I'm pretty sure I read/heard somewhere that he will be able to go toe to toe with papa G. However I think this is just conjecture.

[Midnightmare]

^^ I think you re probably right on that one. It of course won’t stop me using him, just means I will have less on the table! I am just hoping that he keeps deep strike, though if his powers go through the roof I can see them dropping it. He has to be gah v’maukris :P

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

I hope summoning gets a redo like they've done in AoS with Depravity Points or whatever the equivalent for the other Chaos Gods besides Slaanesh.