++ The Bringers of Despair - A Black Legion Community ++

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Yup. One reason everyone poo-poo's on Warp Talons: there's no way to improve the odds of getting their "no-overwatch-after-deepstrikes" ability. Warp Time seriously helped them.

[Furnace Lord]

Well, maybe they'll get a stratagem with this whole Raptor detachment thing. I know they aren't technically Raptors but, meh, jump packs. I just like them because they look cool and are demonic :p

[Sception]

Yeah, dang, that really does knacker the talons something fierce, and they weren't really any good to begin with.

 

Anyway, back to abaddon, while the gimmick of using him as a buffed up, terminator armored ninja adsassin is dead, that wasnt really a competitive strategy to begin with, since anyone who knows what they're doing screens important targets from sirprise deployments regardless.

 

Regardless, the main strengths of abaddon are the two free CPs, black legion shooty force (maybe based on forgeworld dreads? Are they still the most efficient long range csm shooting?) with rerolls to hit screened by morale-immune cultists, plus abaddon himself as a slow but extremely potent melee threat in the center of your firebase that functions as a sort of area-denial unit that can threaten counter-assaults against any melee threats that manage to punch their way through your cultist screens.

 

Alternatively, you can throw him out in support of a mechanized assault list (deep striking him down on turn two as your melee units disembark their rhinos), or a deep striking oblit strike or even termie assault.

 

But, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this as I dont have much first hand experience in 8th, I dont think those sorts of csm forces, while more thematic, are as functional under 8e as 'shooty list with hoardy screens'.

 

 

The other sort of list I'm curious about once the new stuff is out is a daemon engine melee rush with maulers, defilers, and/or venomcrawlers advancing under the aura of a lord discordant. I'm not sure how well Abby might support that kind of a list. Rerolls would certainly be appreciated there, but with a lot of points on big monster units already, im not sure there'd be spare points left for both abby and the needed objective campers.

[Closet Skeleton]

But, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this as I dont have much first hand experience in 8th, I dont think those sorts of csm forces, while more thematic, are as functional under 8e as 'shooty list with hoardy screens'.

 

 

Chaos shooty lists aren't viable in 8th because chaos can't win firebase on firebase against really shooty factions. Endless Cacophony also means you're better off stacking buffs on one super shooty unit so you don't need to dedicate your whole army into being a firebase. Orks can outshoot chaos space marines if you try and rely on a protected firebase.

 

Chaos are way better in close combat than shooting so they need to be assaulting and relying on shooting units only as support. They might even be the third best army at that kind of mixed shooting/assault list, its just that the no 1 at that is knights (no 2 is shining spears) and there's a big gap between positions in that top 3.

 

The competitive Abaddon list (also the only chaos space marine list you see in tournaments) is Abaddon and 3-4 units of maximum sized cultists that push forwards with maybe the odd unit of obliterators for shooting. Then you ally in some daemons or tzaangors for teleporting horde assault but probably tzaangors along with some Thousand Sons cultists so you can bring Ahriman. Occasionally extra hammer units like alpha legion berzerkers or scarab occult terminators will sneak in there but they're of dubious value despite being effective every other game (which just isn't enough to win a tournament).

 

Competitive chaos lists don't use screens, they're horde armies that use buffs stacked on large units as their offense that duplicate units so any blob can function as a screen when its needed to.

[Panzer]

 

Chaos are way better in close combat than shooting so they need to be assaulting and relying on shooting units only as support. They might even be the third best army at that kind of mixed shooting/assault list, its just that the no 1 at that is knights (no 2 is shining spears) and there's a big gap between positions in that top 3.

 

Not to mention that many punchy Chaos units get punched themselves by characters like Custodes Captains or Captain Smash rather easily. CSM can't play a gunline but they also can't play a proper melee army. They are best at close-middle ranged shooting with melee support but they can't do that good enough to actually compete with the top lists.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

 

Chaos are way better in close combat than shooting so they need to be assaulting and relying on shooting units only as support. They might even be the third best army at that kind of mixed shooting/assault list, its just that the no 1 at that is knights (no 2 is shining spears) and there's a big gap between positions in that top 3.

 

Not to mention that many punchy Chaos units get punched themselves by characters like Custodes Captains or Captain Smash rather easily. CSM can't play a gunline but they also can't play a proper melee army. They are best at close-middle ranged shooting with melee support but they can't do that good enough to actually compete with the top lists.

 

 

Captain Smash isn't points efficient against khorne berserkers, I'd bet on the berserkers in that case to be honest. He's good because he counters high wound value expensive targets which chaos don't have. Custodes Captains are pretty underwhelming from what I've seen, they just don't do anything the jetbikes don't do and those are actually pretty easy to counter with stuff in the chaos codex (rhinos and helbrutes).

 

I'm pretty sure I got build a chaos space marine army to do okay against just about any melee army. Its shooty armies that they'll find hard to deal with.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

Chaos are way better in close combat than shooting so they need to be assaulting and relying on shooting units only as support. They might even be the third best army at that kind of mixed shooting/assault list, its just that the no 1 at that is knights (no 2 is shining spears) and there's a big gap between positions in that top 3.

 

Not to mention that many punchy Chaos units get punched themselves by characters like Custodes Captains or Captain Smash rather easily. CSM can't play a gunline but they also can't play a proper melee army. They are best at close-middle ranged shooting with melee support but they can't do that good enough to actually compete with the top lists.

 

 

Captain Smash isn't points efficient against khorne berserkers, I'd bet on the berserkers in that case to be honest. He's good because he counters high wound value expensive targets which chaos don't have. Custodes Captains are pretty underwhelming from what I've seen, they just don't do anything the jetbikes don't do and those are actually pretty easy to counter with stuff in the chaos codex (rhinos and helbrutes).

 

I'm pretty sure I got build a chaos space marine army to do okay against just about any melee army. Its shooty armies that they'll find hard to deal with.

 

 

Fair point about Captain against Berzerkers, but luckily those are easily dealt with even with Marine shooting already. Shoot the choppy and chop the shooty. Also I meant to write the Custodes BIKE Captains. My bad.   Those are actually pretty damn good and get used in tournament lists for a reason. Rhinos and Helbrutes aren't really counters since those are lackluster against the rest of the army usually so the bike captains don't have to deal with those in the first place.

[Brother Talarian]

Anyone think there’s a chance that Chosen can be taken as troops?

 

The “Warmasters Legion” might be giving me false hope... but exciting none the less

[Panzer]

I mean everything is possible but imo it's extremely unlikely. GW doesn't really change the FOC structure that way anymore in this edition with the exception of the four Cult units (but that's most likely due them getting their own Codex).

[Furnace Lord]

Pure speculation, but I think The Warmaster's Legion will just wind up being a rule that says Abaddon must be your warlord if he's included in a list.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

 

Fair point about Captain against Berzerkers, but luckily those are easily dealt with even with Marine shooting already. Shoot the choppy and chop the shooty. Also I meant to write the Custodes BIKE Captains. My bad.   Those are actually pretty damn good and get used in tournament lists for a reason. Rhinos and Helbrutes aren't really counters since those are lackluster against the rest of the army usually so the bike captains don't have to deal with those in the first place.

 

 

I assumed you meant bike captains and in my experience they just aren't that good or common. I've played against bike captains once and they weren't a big deal (but I was using tyranids and I did lose but the catachan infantry were harder to deal with).

 

Bike Captains were briefly popular because they plug a lot of holes and you can buy three in one box. In the UK they don't seem to have stayed a big feature of tournament lists in my experience. People either found they didn't work with their playstyle to be worth their high point cost or expanded into proper jetbike units. They got replaced by smash captains who are cheaper and more specialized.

 

Bike captains either hold back to protect themselves with the character rule in which case their very good fire rate still isn't actually points efficient or they jump forwards to tie things up and then get killed by mortal wounds after not actually doing their points in damage in melee. You have to really know what you're doing to get good use out of them.

 

Rhinos and Helbrutes aren't lackluster against anything, they're great things to have in any list.

[Panzer]

Dunno I still see them regularly in tournament lists so there must be some merit to taking them.

 

I disagree about the Rhino and the Helbrute though. They aren't bad to take in a CSM list because there aren't great alternatives in the Codex, however in a meta where much tougher vehicles get easily blown off the table turn one I wouldn't bank on Berzerkers getting anywhere just because they are in a Rhino and a Helbrutes only chance to survive a little bit longer is if there are more important targets the opponent wants to deal with (like Berzerkers in a Rhino for example).

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

As a note, all of the new reroll abilities we've been seeing (Tip of the Spear, Vicious Descent, etc) say "reroll" rather than "reroll failed." That's an important distinction that allows the rerolling of successes to either fish for certain numbers or reroll successes that were turned to failures by modifiers, much like Belisarius Cawl does for AdMech. That's a nice little bonus that can help against modifiers or when you really need to fish for the right number to trigger an effect.

[Brother Talarian]

Brothers,

Is running Abaddon just a bad choice? I’ve seen and heard a lot about him not being worth it.

 

How would you run Abby?

5-10 minimal termies and Abby? Invest and go combi-plasma?

 

Have Abby run up the field with a unit of 20 marines? There seem to be many strats that could make this work it seems.

 

Add a Dark Apostle for -1 to hit or 5++ they should be pretty durable.

 

What are your thoughts? I’d like to run Abby often in a semi-competitive environment (leaning on casual)

[Prot]

Bringers of Despair specialist detachment

 

1 CP brutal subjugation... we know.

 

1 CP  Chosen Enforcers to auto pass a moral test within 18" of BoD.

 

Yeeesh.

[Sception]

Abby's great. Makes everything better, from the best stuff to the worst. Fearless cultist hords are nice. Rerolling oblits, havoks, and fw dreads are nice. He's slow, but can deep strike, and once he's on the table he becomes a walking no-go zone, since nothing shy of a primarch wants to tussle with him, and even primarchs dont do so lightly, especially if you buff him up a bit, which is easy to do with all marks. And bonus cp is always good.

 

He's great, really.

[Brother Talarian]

Aye, I’ve heard about people running fearless cultist hordes with Abby but it doesn’t seem flavourful to me. Why I’m leaning towards a group of 20legionairs and apostle support. They would also benefit from merciless killers in CC I’d imagine.

 

Otherwise maybe an armoured column of rhinos rushing up with Abby, Havocs, marines(chosen) could be cool.

 

I love the idea of running him with 5-10 termies but fear that termies are still in an awkward spot and will just get shot off the board if they fail their charge.

 

How would you go about buffing him? Would you need several sorcerers?

 

3++ 5+++ regain D3 wounds etc?

[Sception]

I used to run him with a squad of slaaneshi combiplas terminators and a slaaneshi sorcerer to buff the termies. Worked well at the time, but that was early 8e. These days bubble wrap is more common and deep strikers land rurn 2, but these these things can work together. Clear the chaff turn one, drop the strike force turn 2 and hit so very hard that the opponent cant effectively strike back. Maybe some havoks with those new rotor cannons to help with that chaff clearing bit.

 

Probably not 'competitive', but I could see myself giving it a try.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Sounds exactly like what a competitive player would do. I say give it a try, you might surprise yourself. Those chain guns are going to take over the meta the way heavy grav did in 6th & 7th.

[Furnace Lord]

Aye, I’ve heard about people running fearless cultist hordes with Abby but it doesn’t seem flavourful to me. Why I’m leaning towards a group of 20legionairs and apostle support. They would also benefit from merciless killers in CC I’d imagine.

 

Otherwise maybe an armoured column of rhinos rushing up with Abby, Havocs, marines(chosen) could be cool.

 

I love the idea of running him with 5-10 termies but fear that termies are still in an awkward spot and will just get shot off the board if they fail their charge.

 

How would you go about buffing him? Would you need several sorcerers?

 

3++ 5+++ regain D3 wounds etc?

What kind of loadout would you do with the 20 marines, bolters or close combat?

 

Also, as a total noob to this edition, how does one properly bubblewrap something to protect it? Abaddon is huge, can normal marines protect him from gunfire?

[Sception]

For what it's worth, whether tourney viable or not, there's little more viscerably satisfying than the look on a hated rival's face when a deep strike assault nukes their strongest unit off the table in a single turn. Just watch out for the various derp strike interception abilities & strategems going around

[Brother Talarian]

I’ve been thinking about that quite a bit actually. Either 10/10 or 20 bolters.

 

At least 10 to benefit from BL trait by move/run. Brings Abby closer for assault next turn as well. And then 10 to swing chainswords and power wraps when I’m melee. Hopefully enough survive to use merciless killers. Dark apostle buffs would be cool as well!

 

Kill of CC on the way in, kill bolters off in melee? Probably need to test it out and see what works well :).

 

As for protecting Abby, you don’t need to worry about him being shot until he’s the closest enemy model from what’s shooting him. As he’s below 10 wounds! So simply having models that are 1/2” closer to the enemy keeps him safe.

[Sception]

Though I hear there's a lot more character sniping goinh around these days, so the supposed untargetability might not be quite all its cracked up to be. Still, abby's quite durable in his own right, and there are multiple options available to buff his durability if need be.

[Furnace Lord]

Ah thank you. I wasn't sure if bubblewrap was some kind of tactic to stop snipers, so it's just keeping a character under 10 wounds near something else so they can't be targeted.

[Excessus]

Yeah, because they can't be targeted (except with those nasty sniper dudes everyone seems to have except us) if they aren't the closest unit.