Sception Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 How the heck did i read that that wrong.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5289901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 An entire round of your opponent being unable to contest objectives? That sounds immensely powerful to me. I have my doubts about if that was the intention, but if the errata doesn't say anything about it man that's a sweet stratagem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5289917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Talarian Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 So you can contest all objectives on the board as long as you have a black legion model within 3” of it? :o that’s.... glorious. More reason to bring marines instead of cultists then :). I like the thematic of having many legionnaires Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5289950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreaterChickenofTzeentch Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 An entire round of your opponent being unable to contest objectives? That sounds immensely powerful to me. I have my doubts about if that was the intention, but if the errata doesn't say anything about it man that's a sweet stratagem. It is 3CP and has to be timed correctly since it's at the start of the battle round and telegraphs your intentions if you haven't planned around that fact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5289976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Closet Skeleton Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 So you can contest all objectives on the board as long as you have a black legion model within 3” of it? that’s.... glorious. More reason to bring marines instead of cultists then . I like the thematic of having many legionnaires Nope, it just disables all abilities like objective secured. A single outnumbered black legion model would still not control the objective unless its from a troops unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5290094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreaterChickenofTzeentch Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 So you can contest all objectives on the board as long as you have a black legion model within 3” of it? that’s.... glorious. More reason to bring marines instead of cultists then . I like the thematic of having many legionnaires Nope, it just disables all abilities like objective secured. A single outnumbered black legion model would still not control the objective unless its from a troops unit. Also disables all abilities that depend on number of models in the enemy unit. As long as a single Black Legion model is there, all "objective control" abilities turn off. Leaving it with just raw numbers on their side and you still have everything else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5290377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Closet Skeleton Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 So you can contest all objectives on the board as long as you have a black legion model within 3” of it? that’s.... glorious. More reason to bring marines instead of cultists then . I like the thematic of having many legionnaires Nope, it just disables all abilities like objective secured. A single outnumbered black legion model would still not control the objective unless its from a troops unit. Also disables all abilities that depend on number of models in the enemy unit. As long as a single Black Legion model is there, all "objective control" abilities turn off. Leaving it with just raw numbers on their side and you still have everything else. That doesn't sound different from what I was trying to say so despite the "Also" at the start of your post I can't tell if you're trying to disagree or not .World Killers doesn't disable to the ability of models to control objectives, just abilities that grant control of objectives. 1. The objective rules for matched play state that the player with the most models with 3" of the center of the objective marker controls the objective. 2. Every codex has a rule that grants certain units in battleforged detachments the ability to control markers regardless of the amount of models. 3. Said abilities specifies that if two models have similar rules then the two abilities cancel out going back to step 1 but discounting models who don't have such an ability. 4. World Killers disables abilities at step 2, so step 1 applies as its entirely about the rules of objective markers and not the rules/abilities of models. If the player using the Black legion stratagem has models with a step 2 ability (either Black Legion troops with the Warmaster's Legion ability or allied troops) then instead you're going from a step 3 situation to a step 2 one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5290800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayniac Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 World Killers is only pick a unit isn't it? It's not army-wide (it would be insane if that was the case). And just so I'm understanding it doesn't mean they can't contest, it just turns off their Objective Secured equivalent right? So if you had 1 CSM near an objective and they had let's say 3 Intercessors, with that stratagem (assuming it targeted that 1 CSM) you would control the objective, but if you had 5 Terminators by 10 Guardsmen (assuming they live lol) you would not control it since the Guard, while losing their ObjSec, still outnumber you and you don't have ObjSec, so the default control rules come into play? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5290883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 Nah, its army wide. Some of us, myself included, read it wrong because, yeah, its kind of crazy. But you activate it at the start of the battle round, and until the end of the battle round all your black legion units project an absec cancelling aura, while maintaining their own obsec ability if any. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5290889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreaterChickenofTzeentch Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 So you can contest all objectives on the board as long as you have a black legion model within 3” of it? that’s.... glorious. More reason to bring marines instead of cultists then . I like the thematic of having many legionnaires Nope, it just disables all abilities like objective secured. A single outnumbered black legion model would still not control the objective unless its from a troops unit. Also disables all abilities that depend on number of models in the enemy unit. As long as a single Black Legion model is there, all "objective control" abilities turn off. Leaving it with just raw numbers on their side and you still have everything else. That doesn't sound different from what I was trying to say so despite the "Also" at the start of your post I can't tell if you're trying to disagree or not .World Killers doesn't disable to the ability of models to control objectives, just abilities that grant control of objectives. 1. The objective rules for matched play state that the player with the most models with 3" of the center of the objective marker controls the objective. 2. Every codex has a rule that grants certain units in battleforged detachments the ability to control markers regardless of the amount of models. 3. Said abilities specifies that if two models have similar rules then the two abilities cancel out going back to step 1 but discounting models who don't have such an ability. 4. World Killers disables abilities at step 2, so step 1 applies as its entirely about the rules of objective markers and not the rules/abilities of models. If the player using the Black legion stratagem has models with a step 2 ability (either Black Legion troops with the Warmaster's Legion ability or allied troops) then instead you're going from a step 3 situation to a step 2 one. There are also abilities that increase the number of models in the unit for the purposes of objective control (Infernal Quest from Renegade Knights makes the Knight count as 10 models). WK appears to cancel those too and that's what I was referring to. Not saying you are incorrect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5290955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Lord Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 This could play into our Dark Crusaders trait. Rushing for an objective while still being able to use bolters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5290965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Talarian Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 Exactly what I’m thinking Furnace :) Follow-up question. Would a unit of 20 be able to hold 2 objectives with this? Or are units still limited to holding one objective? I’m like big units of 20 more and more now Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5290990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreaterChickenofTzeentch Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 Exactly what I’m thinking Furnace Follow-up question. Would a unit of 20 be able to hold 2 objectives with this? Or are units still limited to holding one objective? I’m like big units of 20 more and more now I don't see anything in any of the current missions where a given unit can only hold one objective, and most objective rules in missions seem to discuss models rather than units, but I could have missed something. Anyone else got more info? This could play into our Dark Crusaders trait. Rushing for an objective while still being able to use bolters. It's almost like the current author compensated for the mediocre trait by actually giving it something important to do. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5291033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 So is the Black Legion trait any good? It doesn't seem it, especially in a world where the beta bolter rule exists. +1Ld is nice but still. Eh? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5291071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Talarian Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 I don’t see how it’s horrible either, though. If you need to move, and potentially a or further, you can advance and still shoot. Is it the best one out there, no, but usless, imo no Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5291098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Lord Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 Also, undivided icon on unmarked troops, big leadership boost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5291109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 So is the Black Legion trait any good? As a rule? No. If you don't absolutely need to run, then this trait foesnt make doing so a good option, as you loose way too much firepower with the -1 to hit on top of not being able to double tap. A drastic decrese in ranged offense in exchange for what might only be a single extra inch of movement is just not a great trade. The trait is only worth using at all if you did absolutely need to run, either to make it into range for a last second objective grab or because there was nothing in range or line of sight otherwise. Even then, though, the light scattering of inaccurate shots you'll get are unlikely to make much of a difference compared to just not shooting at all. It's not at all the worst legion trait, and our strats, relics, warlord traits, and special character more than make up for it, imo. I don't mean to project too much negativity here. And you don't want to forget you have it when you do run. Just dont let the trait trick you into running when you shouldn't - which is basically in most situations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5291110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Lord Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 I wonder if the obsec denial opens opportunities for mind games. For example, I know one of the Genestealer cults gets a deny stratagem power....knowing you can do this might make them hold it in reserve in expectation of countering this....sorry, the gears in my head are spinning :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5291133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreaterChickenofTzeentch Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 I wonder if the obsec denial opens opportunities for mind games. For example, I know one of the Genestealer cults gets a deny stratagem power....knowing you can do this might make them hold it in reserve in expectation of countering this....sorry, the gears in my head are spinning Nothing to apologize for. Stratagem guessing games are yet another level of game that's played at the table, and yes, this has some potential in that department, as does Punishing Volley. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5291176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aiwass Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 I wonder if the obsec denial opens opportunities for mind games. For example, I know one of the Genestealer cults gets a deny stratagem power....knowing you can do this might make them hold it in reserve in expectation of countering this....sorry, the gears in my head are spinning Nothing to apologize for. Stratagem guessing games are yet another level of game that's played at the table, and yes, this has some potential in that department, as does Punishing Volley. Psy-ops making the opponent to make bad moves or assumpions, restrict their movement, change plans are good. Nice to meet you, Alpharius! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5291182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Closet Skeleton Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 Black Crusaders is a 'miss it when you don't have it' ability rather than an ability worth relying on for anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5291183 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreaterChickenofTzeentch Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 I wonder if the obsec denial opens opportunities for mind games. For example, I know one of the Genestealer cults gets a deny stratagem power....knowing you can do this might make them hold it in reserve in expectation of countering this....sorry, the gears in my head are spinning Nothing to apologize for. Stratagem guessing games are yet another level of game that's played at the table, and yes, this has some potential in that department, as does Punishing Volley. Psy-ops making the opponent to make bad moves or assumpions, restrict their movement, change plans are good. Nice to meet you, Alpharius! Hilariously, Legio XX are one of the few CSM factions I have no army for. Thousand Sons, The Scourged, and Sons of the Cyclops will have to do in that department. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5291205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Lord Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 I wonder if the obsec denial opens opportunities for mind games. For example, I know one of the Genestealer cults gets a deny stratagem power....knowing you can do this might make them hold it in reserve in expectation of countering this....sorry, the gears in my head are spinning Nothing to apologize for. Stratagem guessing games are yet another level of game that's played at the table, and yes, this has some potential in that department, as does Punishing Volley. Psy-ops making the opponent to make bad moves or assumpions, restrict their movement, change plans are good. Nice to meet you, Alpharius! Wait....I am Alpharius? I mean, I am Alpharius! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5291233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 'Chaos lord in terminator armor' and 'chaos sorcerer in terminator armor' are both 'terminator' units, per their keywords. Ah, I see. Nevermind me then. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5291238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
olsol Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 What do you guys think the sightless helm is best used on? I think it's pretty bloody deadly on the Lord Discordant Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/page/30/#findComment-5291285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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