++ The Bringers of Despair - A Black Legion Community ++

[Balthamal]

Cultist blobs are dead imo. Without the benefit of traits to actually improve them they're simply dirt cheap bodies. If anything take them as min squads and sit them on backfield objectives and tide of traitors one further up the board. CSM really offer a lot more than they previously did - have seen a couple of games where 20 man squads have really punched above their weight. Granted they're of more use with Red Corsairs but there's much more of a case to include them over cultists across the board now

[the emperor is scottish]

Cultist blobs are dead imo. Without the benefit of traits to actually improve them they're simply dirt cheap bodies. If anything take them as min squads and sit them on backfield objectives and tide of traitors one further up the board. CSM really offer a lot more than they previously did - have seen a couple of games where 20 man squads have really punched above their weight. Granted they're of more use with Red Corsairs but there's much more of a case to include them over cultists across the board now

One of the best pieces of advice I've been given to fit in with a themed list i'm going for is furies with the Mark of Nurgle. sort of to act as a flying shield/tar pit

I thought that sounded pretty good. 

[Panzer]

I honestly don't see how cultist blobs are dead. They barely benefitted from Legion traits anyway.

[MegaVolt87]

What do you guys think about chosen with chain axes and plasma pistols to be like the 30k Reavers? Probably easier to use berserkers, but all those plasma pistols.... 

[the emperor is scottish]

What do you guys think about chosen with chain axes and plasma pistols to be like the 30k Reavers? Probably easier to use berserkers, but all those plasma pistols.... 

This was how i was planning on running my Chosen 

[Brother Talarian]

Did cultists retain the heretic Astrates keyword?

If not, I can see how they’re a bit less value as BL as they’re no longer fearless when running with Abby.

 

If they didn’t.... they’re no different than before?

[Panzer]

Did cultists retain the heretic Astrates keyword?

If not, I can see how they’re a bit less value as BL as they’re no longer fearless when running with Abby.

 

If they didn’t.... they’re no different than before?

 

They literally only lost access to the Legion traits. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Brother Talarian]

I don’t see how they’re any different then TBH.

They bring 10 less models as a max unit, 30 is still a good number and you can spend the points elsewhere.

[Panzer]

Yeah I agree.

[Sception]

They're one point more expensive than they used to be, are limited to 30 per unit, and they lost the legion trait, which, for black legion in particular, was not particularly amazing for them anyway. This on top of previous nerfs like tide of traitors 1/game. They are the most nerfed unit in 40k. But that said...

 

They're still less than half the price of csms per wound, more like 1/3 the price after factiring weapon upgrades in. They're still heretic astartes. They're still black legion keyword. They still get tide of traotors, albeit 1/game. They're still fearless with abaddon about. They still bubble wrap. They get boots on the ground, all the better with world killers.

 

CSMs are a fair bit better than they used to be, between poonts reductions, the chaincannon, beta bolter rule if that becomes a thing, etc. but the biggest thing Black Legion csms got out of 8.2/vigilus was workd killers combined with boots on the ground, and again, that's something our cultists got too.

 

 

At the same time, the deep seated problems with marines in 8e still remain. You still pay a lot of points for an armor save that loses a lot of its effectiveness in the face of any ap at all. You're still talking about mostly medium to short ranged units that don't move very fast on foot and lack quality transport options, and while beta bolters is nice, it tends to make marines even slower by discouraging movement at all so you can double tap bolters at long range.

 

None of that is to say csm units are outright bad or cultist units terribly great, I just personally don't think the balance has completely inverted from the previous paradigm. In 8e, fearless blobs are still pretty good, and while i dont know for sure, i still expect that when everything settles down abaddon + cultist blobs will still be among the things we field.

[Prot]

Just a small note: I did enjoy the +1 LD on them when Abe wasn't around. I am pretty sure I lose a fair amount more as a result. (I don't walk Abe up the board like some people do.)

[Sception]

You lose exactly one more per morale test, amounting to one to two more per battle round.

 

Even if you don't walk abaddon with your cultists, if you run a dark apostle - which is a good call generally if you're running large infantry blocks, especially for black legion with council of traitors - then as long as he's around nearby cultist units can use his leadership, including his legion trait boost.

 

Walking abaddon, while not my preference either (mostly for narrative/aesthetic reasons) is still worth considering, not only making your cultists fearless, but also granting his rerolls to havocs that can advance with the blobs while pumping out heavy weapons fire. A BoD field commander can still deep strike with your termies to provide rerolls there.

 

On the other hand, if you're running a BoD detachment then any old termie hero or squad can help an extra unit of cultists ignore morale for some CP investment. Between the generic and specialist ikstrats, you can render two cultist blobs immune to morale by feeding them a total of 3cp per morale phase. Pricey, but potentially worth considering.

[Prot]

You lose exactly one more per morale test, amounting to one to two more per battle round.

 

 

That is correct. Cultists lives matter. 

 

 

Even if you don't walk abaddon with your cultists, if you run a dark apostle - which is a good call generally if you're running large infantry blocks, especially for black legion with council of traitors - then as long as he's around nearby cultist units can use his leadership, including his legion trait boost.

 

 

This is the tough part... since the new rules, I find I am running the Apostle along with the unit that I'm trying to give -1 to hit to. He runs very differently now in my army with his new rules. In fact I'm thinking of pulling him entirely from my lists. 

[Sception]

He does run very differently. Both the apostle and the unit he wants to buff needing to be on the table - not embarked in transports or waiting to deep strike in - dramatically cganges his use. That said, the leadership aura is nice for cultist blobs, especially as they dont get the legion trait, and several of the prayers are phenomenal, and with council of traitors he's a solid platform for trusted war leader.

 

If you're running any big infantry units at all, I think he's a good choice.

[Panzer]

I'm honestly kinda surprised how much people liked the old aura considering few are using a Chaplain for loyalist armies even if they have proper melee units like Blood Angels or such. Most are more than happy with just a Captain since you'd only miss on 2s anyway and the Captain himself does a lot more than a Chaplain in melee.

[Dallas Drake]

I played 2 games with the DA before I decided that 110 points was too expensive for what he does. Also, I rolled a 1 in one game and CP it to roll another 1

[Prot]

I'm honestly kinda surprised how much people liked the old aura considering few are using a Chaplain for loyalist armies even if they have proper melee units like Blood Angels or such. Most are more than happy with just a Captain since you'd only miss on 2s anyway and the Captain himself does a lot more than a Chaplain in melee.

 

 

Well while that's entirely true... keep in mind a Chaplain isn't tying to keep together a thin veil of a million deformed bodies with zero training, poor hygiene skills, and the propensity to die to a stiff breeze!.

 

A friend of mine often jokes every time he sees me pull out my tray upon tray of cultists: "Those are your true Veterans of the Long War". The first time he said this I looked at my army and realized he was right. Some of my cultists date back to my "bloodpact" army and are easily some of the oldest models I play!

I played 2 games with the DA before I decided that 110 points was too expensive for what he does. Also, I rolled a 1 in one game and CP it to roll another 1

 

That literally just happened to me last game. I was on the fence about him before, but I just feel like for approx. 110 points there's much better choice. 

[Dallas Drake]

I played 2 games with the DA before I decided that 110 points was too expensive for what he does. Also, I rolled a 1 in one game and CP it to roll another 1

 

That literally just happened to me last game. I was on the fence about him before, but I just feel like for approx. 110 points there's much better choice. 

 

 

When I saw him on paper I was excited, but on the table, slogging on foot doing very little really, meh. Oh well. I think I'll try a Master of Executions next, Emperor's Children or a Black Legion one could be insane. Don Hooson talks about this on his last blog post.

 

I've had bad times with all the uber combos using new characters/powers, I'm starting to design lists that have 1 or 2 key power rolls in them (i.e a unit that needs Warptime rather than Warptime, DA -1, Miasma, Glamour, etc). Also, auras that just work or go off are insane, as such I think the Purge are going to be the most competitive army we see from this new release, especially if they stay Pantheon and not just Nurgle.

[RolandTHTG]

I'm honestly kinda surprised how much people liked the old aura considering few are using a Chaplain for loyalist armies even if they have proper melee units like Blood Angels or such. Most are more than happy with just a Captain since you'd only miss on 2s anyway and the Captain himself does a lot more than a Chaplain in melee.

 

I think it was because chaos had decent-to-good melee units before, where a old Apostle boosted them with the rerolls, while the one consistent thing I've heard from loyalists is that outside of bloodangels you shouldn't even try to melee. 

[Furnace Lord]

Has anyone run the Cultist/Apostle detachment from Vigilus? I've heard nothing about it so far.

[Panzer]

 

I'm honestly kinda surprised how much people liked the old aura considering few are using a Chaplain for loyalist armies even if they have proper melee units like Blood Angels or such. Most are more than happy with just a Captain since you'd only miss on 2s anyway and the Captain himself does a lot more than a Chaplain in melee.

 

I think it was because chaos had decent-to-good melee units before, where a old Apostle boosted them with the rerolls, while the one consistent thing I've heard from loyalists is that outside of bloodangels you shouldn't even try to melee. 

 

 

Yeah but again even Blood Angels don't really take Chaplains.

[Wayniac]

I'd definitely say it makes the army play more akin to the Sons of Horus' hyper aggressive infantry gunline with Obliterators or a Host Raptorial to break the enemy's back.

I am perfectly fine with this.  "Tip of the Spear" is a great visual strategy.  Straight for the throat.

[Prot]

 

I'd definitely say it makes the army play more akin to the Sons of Horus' hyper aggressive infantry gunline with Obliterators or a Host Raptorial to break the enemy's back.

I am perfectly fine with this.  "Tip of the Spear" is a great visual strategy.  Straight for the throat.

 

 

I think once people get more games under their belt they'll start really enjoying this. I agree, it's very indicative of the army which is an aggressive alpha. I now plan for this during deployment and combined with the Dev battery Shoot in your opponent's first phase (if it works) is more of the same. 

 

 

 

As far as the cultist formation, unfortunately that's the only one I haven't tried. I've played the other ones a few times each but don't find anything too attractive about that cultists detachment.

 

I only played BoD once now that I think of it. Still having big problems with Termies...very frustrating.

[Brother Talarian]

So I ran 10 termies with combi plas and chain axes alongside Abby and a sorc in term armor against custodes.

 

They did great, specifically Abby, what a weapon.

 

Got me to thinking, chosen of the pantheon can work well with the termies alongside 2-3 sorcs.

 

It’s an expensive unit, but man is it ever cool/good.

 

Drop termies down next to an apostle for additional awesomeness, or you can get another sorc.

 

Anyhow, termies wiped the unit of bikes and dropped the captain down to 1 wound. Abby slew several groups of custodes himself.

 

I also witnessed the fragility of termies in their current state... without Delighrful agonies I would have lost a lot more to shooting sooner.

 

Might just be against custodes, as they have -1/2 shooting weapons that do flat two dmg.

 

I used merciless killers on termies as well, rather cool. I forgot DTTFE.

 

I think combi-plasma and axes termies would be pretty useful in the BoD detachment, using plasma to kill elite/monster/vehicle and charge with axes vs single wound models.

[Panzer]

I also witnessed the fragility of termies in their current state... without Delighrful agonies I would have lost a lot more to shooting sooner.

 

Might just be against custodes, as they have -1/2 shooting weapons that do flat two dmg.

 

It'll be the same against most other armies unfortunately. Either they have Autocannons/Plasma or they have weight of dice. The only thing Terminators can endure properly is AP0.