++ The Bringers of Despair - A Black Legion Community ++

[Darnok]

Anyone feel the equipment choices in the new CSM is some level of trolling or challenge to CSM players? The faction most famous for conversions is forced out of the gate into converting all our best gear once again.

Quite frankly I would have less issues with this if the models were better suited to conversions - way too many models in the new kits can be built one way and one way only. It feels more "buy five boxes to get your kit armed properly" than "get some conversions done!" really...

[MegaVolt87]

 

Anyone feel the equipment choices in the new CSM is some level of trolling or challenge to CSM players? The faction most famous for conversions is forced out of the gate into converting all our best gear once again.

Quite frankly I would have less issues with this if the models were better suited to conversions - way too many models in the new kits can be built one way and one way only. It feels more "buy five boxes to get your kit armed properly" than "get some conversions done!" really...

 

 

This is true, but we are leveling up our skills by dealing with it as a side benefit I guess. If I went back in time to show my past self my improvements, old me would not believe it. 

[Prot]

Look at it this way, converting our best gear is gatekeeping the band wagoners out. Only the dedicated will persist with actually modeling and painting the good units properly. The net list people can move on and stay out with their hack job armies that disrespect the faction and opponent, just to be on the bleeding edge of the meta at a point in time. Look at Prot's havocs, the guy loves chaos, he put in the effort for the power.

 

Thanks so much. That means a lot to me.

 

Black Legion probably won’t be super popular in competitive events but I don’t care. They’re one of the last that I haven’t done for Chaos in the last 20 years.

 

Ideally I want to build this particular army up into the 10k point range.

 

I’m entering a tournament this weekend and will no doubt get my butt handed to me but I’m going to field pure Black Legion even though I’ll doubt I’ll see any pure Astartes. Lol

[MegaVolt87]

 

Look at it this way, converting our best gear is gatekeeping the band wagoners out. Only the dedicated will persist with actually modeling and painting the good units properly. The net list people can move on and stay out with their hack job armies that disrespect the faction and opponent, just to be on the bleeding edge of the meta at a point in time. Look at Prot's havocs, the guy loves chaos, he put in the effort for the power.

Thanks so much. That means a lot to me.

Black Legion probably won’t be super popular in competitive events but I don’t care. They’re one of the last that I haven’t done for Chaos in the last 20 years.

Ideally I want to build this particular army up into the 10k point range.

I’m entering a tournament this weekend and will no doubt get my butt handed to me but I’m going to field pure Black Legion even though I’ll doubt I’ll see any pure Astartes. Lol

Yeah my IW's are my focus as well. I am aiming for 10k pts plus across 40k and 30k. Tired of chasing meta, I just want something to work on that holds my enthusiasm and interest. As I get older, find less need to inflate my errr ego being super competitive. Band wagoners ruin any faction MIO. I am living through the frater here checking out the great BL and SoH armies here. Mabye I will do a BL kill team.

[Midnightmare]

@ Prot - those Havocs look great mate, massive kudos. Have you used them in game testing yet and how did they perform? Looking forward to seeing how they get in in the tournie!

 

(They are my next unit you see :D )

[Prot]

@ Prot - those Havocs look great mate, massive kudos. Have you used them in game testing yet and how did they perform? Looking forward to seeing how they get in in the tournie!

 

(They are my next unit you see )

 

Actually I've probably played 20+ games with them. Mostly competitive, but not 'tournament' yet.  I'm finding my Black Legion revolve around a 1-2 punch and the Havocs are the first part of it.

 

The Havocs are a very good Black Legion unit to me (of any build) but the Chaincannons are very mediocre as a single squad unless you have to crush (Cacaphony) some big chaff squads. Then they can seem incredibly potent. 

 

Tournament wise I don't know if I'll take Black Legion. I play certain units because they're fun, and some of it isn't really working at a super competitive level.

[Closet Skeleton]

Got two tournaments coming up and want to use the first to practice for the latter. Thinking of bringing black legion.

 

I wrote this list and I know its a bad idea but I might try it out at the first event.

 

Battalion

 

Abaddon

 

Dark Apostle

 

Terminator Sorcerer

(can buy Angel's bane), force staff

 

Exalted Champion

chainsword, (gorisvex's teeth), bolt pistol

 

2 dark disciples

 

19 Chaos Space marines

2 plasma guns, combi plasma and chain axe champion

 

20 Chaos Space marines

2 plasma guns, combi plasma and power fist champion

 

20 Chaos Space marines

2 reaper chaincannons, combi plasma and power sword champion

 

20 Chaos Space marines

2 melta guns, combi melta and power axe champion

 

15 Raptors

2 plasma guns, plasma pistol and power fist champion

 

1999 total

[Prot]

Your list reminds me of how expensive marines can feel. You need real damage output in a competitive tournament. I think you have a fun list there but you might be immensely disappointed with it. Please playtest that list first.

[MegaVolt87]

I would split those 20 man units into 10 man, shorten the raptors to kit them out with champions and 2 other weapons. That way you have more needed weapons and melee from the champs. I ran my BL similar as footsloggers back in the day, the extra specials and champs are what you need. 

[Closet Skeleton]

I can't afford that many marines and take the extra champions and specials unless I drop Abaddon. I really should split one 20 man blob into a 10 and two 5s to get a second battalion. Or go 20 20 15 15 5 5 and swap those 2 chaincannons for 4 heavy bolters.

 

The Raptors are what I have built and are one unit for a warptime first turn charge. Which does work with the terminator sorcerer, just not optimally since a few guys have to string back and I really want to be tagging as much as possible.

 

My only playtest option is at a one day tournament so that's how its going to have to go. The second tournament is ETC so I have no idea how competitive its going to be (probably a bit).

[MegaVolt87]

You have enough chaos marines and HQ's to split to a second battalion, halving the strength of each CSM unit for extra champs and weapons. The points will come from reducing the raptors which are not that great and don't score. The chainlord is a chaos lord with jump pack and the relic, your exalt is too slow and a waste for this, and not as good as the proper chain lord. you would be better off forgetting about warp time raptors, taking the extra champs + squad weapons and detachment for bulk CP's to spend on pre game stuff like extra relics + strats etc would get you further than such a one trick pony. Tourney boards are usually terrain lite, and your raptors would be hard to hide + easily shot off the board and still not that great warp timed, not enough combat power. Raptors would be better at 5 man each if you are set on them with combi plas and plasma gun, still not that great. I have them in my list raw with just a claw champ as a screen/tar pit. You are trying to do a death star, but warp time raptors are a crappy one, unless you are trying to deliver three jump pack chaos lords with meat shields. (chain lord, 2 hammer lords). 

[Taurulf]

Hey guys , quick question I have just bought the chaos half of shadowspear , what should I buy next to compliment what’s in the box ?

[Closet Skeleton]

Tournaments aren't always 'terrain-lite', the one I'm going to this weekend won't be while the next one is a gamble.

 

Exalted champion is for the rerolls to wound, gorisvex's teeth isn't for dealing damage its just the cheapest decent relic. I expect to be able to survive 2 turns of shooting at most so I need to get units into combat to try and shut some of the opponent's firepower down and being able to reroll all wounds is one of the few chaos equalizers that don't have fleshmetal guns.

 

The Raptors aren't an attempted deathstar when they're the cheapest unit in the list, they're a distraction to shut down firepower. I'd swap them for terminators but I don't want to give my opponent a target for damage 2. Raptors score against non-troops. If I had more than 80 marines without jump packs I'd go pure troops but the raptors are the other basic power armoured unit I own.

 

I probably will need a second battalion though and I'll need to hold a home objective so can't have the whole army be relying on Abaddon's fearless aura.

 

I'll try this one out at the weekend then. If its a complete disaster I'll go back to my brigade list.

 

Battalion

 

Abaddon

 

Dark Apostle

 

2 dark disciples

 

18 Chaos Space marines

Bolt guns 2 plasma guns, combi plasma and power sword champion

 

16 Chaos Space marines

Chainswords, 2 plasma pistols, plasma pistol and chainaxe champion

 

18 Chaos Space marines

Bolt guns 2 plasma guns, combi plasma and power fist champion

 

15 Raptors

2 plasma guns, plasma pistol and power fist champion

 

Battalion

 

Terminator Sorcerer

(can buy Angel's bane), force staff

 

Exalted Champion

chainsword, (gorisvex's teeth), bolt pistol

 

18 Chaos Space marines

Bolt guns 2 melta guns, combi melta and power axe champion

 

5 Chaos Space marines

Bolt guns, combi-bolter champion, heavy bolter

 

5 Chaos Space marines

Bolt guns, combi-bolter champion, heavy bolter

 

2000 total

[Prot]

Seems like you've got it figured out. Good luck Skeleton. Let us know how it goes.

 

Hey guys , quick question I have just bought the chaos half of shadowspear , what should I buy next to compliment what’s in the box ?

 

The 'quick' answer would be: Lord Discordant(s). it's an easy way to take advantage of some of the units in the box while making the army a little better than what's in the box.

[Taurulf]

 

 

The 'quick' answer would be: Lord Discordant(s). it's an easy way to take advantage of some of the units in the box while making the army a little better than what's in the box.

Cool, yeah that seems like a good shout , will start with that !! Cheers Prot

Went for lord discordant and some havocs

[MegaVolt87]

You could get more shadowspear CSM's from Ebay and lots of plasma guns to do plasma chosen as another unit to add on the cheap $$$. 

[Taurulf]

Yeah I had thought about that , the chaos marines are sold out online at the moment so that might be the best option in the meantime

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

 

Look at it this way, converting our best gear is gatekeeping the band wagoners out. Only the dedicated will persist with actually modeling and painting the good units properly. The net list people can move on and stay out with their hack job armies that disrespect the faction and opponent, just to be on the bleeding edge of the meta at a point in time. Look at Prot's havocs, the guy loves chaos, he put in the effort for the power.

Thanks so much. That means a lot to me.

Black Legion probably won’t be super popular in competitive events but I don’t care. They’re one of the last that I haven’t done for Chaos in the last 20 years.

Ideally I want to build this particular army up into the 10k point range.

I’m entering a tournament this weekend and will no doubt get my butt handed to me but I’m going to field pure Black Legion even though I’ll doubt I’ll see any pure Astartes. Lol

Yeah my IW's are my focus as well. I am aiming for 10k pts plus across 40k and 30k. Tired of chasing meta, I just want something to work on that holds my enthusiasm and interest. As I get older, find less need to inflate my errr ego being super competitive. Band wagoners ruin any faction MIO. I am living through the frater here checking out the great BL and SoH armies here. Mabye I will do a BL kill team.

 

 

Similar position here, I don't play armies for competitive. Generally I find it to be a waste of time, money, and effort. 

 

I play the factions that are cool and I tend overall to do very well with them. I have a small Irons force that I flirt with in addition to my Black Legion and my Thousand Sons (Yes I have a thing for chaos lmao) 

[Prot]

My problem is I have this almost sadistic addiction to playing very competitive environments with goofy lists. Every once in a while I ramp it up but I went pure fun to an ITC GT a few weeks ago and man was I getting sick of Eldar flyers and skimmers.

 

There’s a lot of flexibility in the codex for everyday play but I see the main competitive draw from the codex is (not black Legion) Disco Lords. I guess I’m okay with that but if I’m being honest a small part of me feels there’s some real opportunities missed.

 

I have a gut feeling some large gaps are going to be filled by the Chaos Knights codex.

[Sagentus]

My problem is I have this almost sadistic addiction to playing very competitive environments with goofy lists. Every once in a while I ramp it up but I went pure fun to an ITC GT a few weeks ago and man was I getting sick of Eldar flyers and skimmers.

 

There’s a lot of flexibility in the codex for everyday play but I see the main competitive draw from the codex is (not black Legion) Disco Lords. I guess I’m okay with that but if I’m being honest a small part of me feels there’s some real opportunities missed.

 

I have a gut feeling some large gaps are going to be filled by the Chaos Knights codex.

 

Got to say Prot, your write up on the ITC tourney was a good read, shame you couldnt have got another win. Always interesting to here people experiences with the new units

[Lysimachus]

Worked up a list for BL + Renegade Knights, C+C would be very much appreciated!

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356723-2k-black-legionquestor-traitoris/?p=5335095

[Closet Skeleton]

Ended up winning one game out of three. Had some bad luck against Tau and Magnus + World Eaters and made a lot of mistakes. It did take 5 turns for triple riptides to table me though and if I'd rolled better and killed one earlier I'd have a chance. Against World Eaters he dispelled a critical warptime with his 4+ stratagem and I messed up my first turn charges.

 

So I'm probably going to try the list again to see if I can learn to use it a bit better.

 

edit: more detailed report

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339226-cs-plogging-for-chaos-nurgles-menagerie/?p=5337567

[Taurulf]

Ok guys . So this is my first list I’ve come up with based around the shadowspear boxset. Any pointers or ideas greatly appreciated

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [47 PL, 2CP, 891pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

 

Gametype: Open

 

Gifts of Chaos (1 Relic) [-1CP]

 

Legion: Black Legion

 

Use Beta Rules

 

+ HQ +

 

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 100pts]: First Among Traitors, Illusory Supplication, No Chaos Mark, The Black Mace, Warlord

 

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne, Talisman of Burning Blood

. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

 

+ Troops +

 

Chaos Cultists [6 PL, 77pts]: No Chaos Mark

. 11x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun

. 2x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon

. Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Heavy stubber

. Cultist Champion: Shotgun

 

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 71pts]: Mark of Khorne

. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Plasma pistol

. 4x Marine w/ Chainsword

 

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 142pts]: No Chaos Mark

. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Combi-bolter

. 8x Marine w/ Boltgun

. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon

 

+ Elites +

 

Greater Possessed [8 PL, 140pts]

. Greater Possessed: No Chaos Mark

. Greater Possessed: No Chaos Mark

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Havocs [7 PL, 181pts]: No Chaos Mark

. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-plasma

. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon

 

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [37 PL, 704pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Legion: The Scourged

 

+ HQ +

 

Master of Possession [5 PL, 98pts]: Force stave, Infernal Power, Mark of Tzeentch

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Havocs [7 PL, 131pts]: Mark of Tzeentch

. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-plasma

. 3x Havoc w/ heavy bolter: 3x Heavy bolter

. Havoc w/ reaper chaincannon: Reaper chaincannon

 

Obliterators [18 PL, 345pts]: Mark of Tzeentch, 3x Obliterator

 

Venomcrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: Mark of Tzeentch

 

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [21 PL, -1CP, 402pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Legion: Black Legion

 

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Host Raptorial

 

+ HQ +

 

Haarken Worldclaimer [6 PL, 115pts]

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Raptors [5 PL, 99pts]: No Chaos Mark

. 3x Raptor

. Raptor Champion: Lightning Claw, Plasma pistol

. Raptor w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

 

Raptors [5 PL, 94pts]: No Chaos Mark

. 3x Raptor

. Raptor Champion: Lightning Claw, Plasma pistol

. Raptor w/ special weapon: Flamer

 

Raptors [5 PL, 94pts]: No Chaos Mark

. 3x Raptor

. Raptor Champion: Lightning Claw, Plasma pistol

. Raptor w/ special weapon: Flamer

 

++ Total: [105 PL, 1CP, 1,997pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

[Bjornas]

Hey! old-time Chaos player here looking for some gameplay and modelling advice.

 

I played alot of 40k in 4th-5th ed, mainly SM, after that I had a break from gaming until I got into AoS in 2016, which is now my main game. However I have an old BL army packed up and after seeing the new Abaddon model I have been thinking about buying a few more models and take it out for a spin. I've only managed to get hold of the 2017 codex so far though. So, a few questions:

 

-First off, what the funk is going on with force org. charts these days?! What was wrong with the good old 2 troops/1hq? Could someone please explain briefly how army selection works? 

 

-Abaddon, love the new model, what kind of units/style of army benefit from his abilities the most? I'm not too keen on cultists as I'd like to keep the model count low, but how about marines or termies?

-Love the new termies too, are they worth the investment?

-Land Raiders and Rhinos, useful these days? Is it possible to transport Abaddon somehow or does he need to slog it?

-Daemons, how do they work? Can they be used in a CSM army?

-That Lord Executioner guy, looks cool or how is he?

-General must-haves in the new book? Mind you, I've played like two 500pt games with Orks in 8th ed, so I barely know how the game works these days

 

-Converting: I'm planning on getting a few WB and SoH heads from Forgeworld and put them on 10-20 CSMs, I want a kind of mix of pre- and post-heresy in the unit to get a veteran/bodyguard feel for Abaddon. I think it's gonna look awesome. However I've also stared longingly at the SoH Reavers for some time, but they look rather small. Does anyone know how they blend in scale-wise with the new CSMs?

 

I think that's it for now, sorry for such basic questions but I hope you see where I'm coming from thankful for any feedback!

 

/Bjornas

[Dr_Ruminahui]

The way force org charts work is set out in the main rulebook, but in brief:

 

- Most force org charts give you Command Points ("CPs"), which are the resource you use for Stratagems.  These are in the final pages of the codex, and basically let you let you do nifty stuff like shooting twice with a slaaneshi unit, or recycling some cultists.  Each stratagem has a CP cost, usually between 1 and 3.  An army that is built legally is called "battle forged" and automatically gets 3 CP.

 

- The various force orgs (I think they are now called formations) have mandatory elements and optional elements.  I am only listing the mandatory ones, as typically you can fit whatever forces don't fit under any particular mandatory requirements as part of the optional requirements of your various formations.

 

- Unlike previous editions, an army can be composed of various formations.  It can also be built from multiple codexes, though the entire army will typically have to share a keyword (such as an army with renegade knights, daemons, chaos marines and lost and the damned all sharing the CHAOS keyword).  The rules for the various factions within a given codex (such as the CSM LEGIONS) strongly incentivise not mixing factions or codexes within a given formation.

 

- The best formation in terms of limited resources for CPs is the Batallion, for which you need 2 HQs and 3 troops and gives 5 CPs (the 3 in the rule book got errataed).

 

- There are a variety of formations that require 3 of one slot + 1 HQ.  So, there is one that requires 3 Elites, another 3 fast attack, another 3 heavy support (plus the HQ choice).  There is also a HQ one that only requires a "flat" 3 HQs (rather than the 3 + 1 formula of the others).  Each of these gives 1 CP.

 

- There are some other formations that I won't go into here, some of which are specifically for flyers, super heavies or fortifications. 

 

My advice is to paint up 2 HQ choices and 3 troops and whatever else you want and not worry too much about formations when building your army - with those foundations, you can basically field most anything you might paint, and if you can't just paint another HQ.

 

I'll leave your other questions for others to answer.