++ The Bringers of Despair - A Black Legion Community ++

[Bjornas]

The way force org charts work is set out in the main rulebook, but in brief:

 

- Most force org charts give you Command Points ("CPs"), which are the resource you use for Stratagems.  These are in the final pages of the codex, and basically let you let you do nifty stuff like shooting twice with a slaaneshi unit, or recycling some cultists.  Each stratagem has a CP cost, usually between 1 and 3.  An army that is built legally is called "battle forged" and automatically gets 3 CP.

 

- The various force orgs (I think they are now called formations) have mandatory elements and optional elements.  I am only listing the mandatory ones, as typically you can fit whatever forces don't fit under any particular mandatory requirements as part of the optional requirements of your various formations.

 

- Unlike previous editions, an army can be composed of various formations.  It can also be built from multiple codexes, though the entire army will typically have to share a keyword (such as an army with renegade knights, daemons, chaos marines and lost and the damned all sharing the CHAOS keyword).  The rules for the various factions within a given codex (such as the CSM LEGIONS) strongly incentivise not mixing factions or codexes within a given formation.

 

- The best formation in terms of limited resources for CPs is the Batallion, for which you need 2 HQs and 3 troops and gives 5 CPs (the 3 in the rule book got errataed).

 

- There are a variety of formations that require 3 of one slot + 1 HQ.  So, there is one that requires 3 Elites, another 3 fast attack, another 3 heavy support (plus the HQ choice).  There is also a HQ one that only requires a "flat" 3 HQs (rather than the 3 + 1 formula of the others).  Each of these gives 1 CP.

 

- There are some other formations that I won't go into here, some of which are specifically for flyers, super heavies or fortifications. 

 

My advice is to paint up 2 HQ choices and 3 troops and whatever else you want and not worry too much about formations when building your army - with those foundations, you can basically field most anything you might paint, and if you can't just paint another HQ.

 

I'll leave your other questions for others to answer.

Thanks for that, much appreciated, gives me a much better understanding of what I'm reading when I'm looking at army lists these days :D

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Abaddon does not transportation as he can teleport onto the battlefield. Chaos Terminators are generally poor in performance. Our good units are Daemon Princes, Abaddon, Lord Discordant, Cultists, Khorne Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Rhinos, Havocs, Obliterators, Maulerfiends, Sorcerers with Jump Pack, Chaos Xiphon Intercepter, Contemptors, Leviathans, Master of Possession, and Greater Possessed. Edited July 4, 2019 by Daemon Prince Marbas

[Dr_Ruminahui]

As for daemons, yes they can be used in your CSM in 3 ways (its a bit complicated):

 

1.  You can put daemon units and CSM units in the same formation.  This is generally a bad idea, as you lose any LEGION benefit on your marines and any CHAOS GOD benefit on the daemons, and potentially the use of both CSM and CD strategems.

 

2.  You can reserve points (so, basically don't spend them - meaning that if you reserve 200 points in a 2000 point army, your army list is only 1800 points) that you can then use to summon daemon units during the battle (basically, you spend the appropriate points from your reserve whenever you summon a unit).  This can have advantages in that it effectively gives all your daemons deepstrike, and it allows you to choose what daemon unit you want at the time of summoning rather than at list creation, but is generally not recommended as the summoning rules are kind of crappy (summoning requires a character not to move, you can only summon in an area around the character, the summoning may fail and the summoning can harm or kill your character).  As well, unless you have a separate CD formation, you don't get access to the CD stratagems.

 

3.  You can field multiple formations, with individual formations containing either CSM or CD.  This currently is the best way to do it, as you get to keep all the individual benefits of each codex (like LEGION rules and strategems), plus get to enjoy where the two codexes synergize (for example, the heralds in the Daemons codex buff all daemons of a given mark, which includes CSM daemon units like our daemon engines, possessed, etc).  The only real drawbacks are that you have to use a strategem (and thus CPs) to deepstrike your daemons, and some tournaments/gaming groups restrict the number of formations you can use.

 

 

Personally, I would start with force drawn solely from the CSM codex, then add daemons slowly after you have become accustomed to the rules.  That way you don't have to worry as much of the complication of a whole different rule set, plus you'll have a better understanding of how the daemons compliment your list and where you might be better off using the points for stuff from the CSM codex instead.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Dr_Ruminahui

[dakkamasta]

Greetings fellow Black Crusaders! I hope you all have been enjoying using the new models and rules that we've gotten over the last few months.

 

As I've been finally getting around to revamping my Black Legion collection to include some of the new model range, I'm trying to re-style my army to be pure Black Legion (whereas I used to make extensive use of other legions due to crappy rules for ours) so that I can make the most of it's strengths. I'll be adding Abbadon, new CSM squads, havocs, discordant, etc.

 

With that said, I've been really leaning towards dusting off my chaos bikers and biker sorcerers as they're starting to look like a great option now. Specifically in min sized units with an extra combi-bolter on the champion. With bolter discipline the unit can put out 16 shots at 24" (+14" move) and can also make use of our trait, since they can advance for a 20" move onto a far objective if need be, whilst still shooting 8 shots (better than nothing right?). I feel this complements a footslogging force surrounding Abbadon quite well since you can keep the mass of your army together walking up the table whilst the bikes take care of the far away objectives and simultaneously provide respectable anti-chaff firepower for their cost.

 

The same principle applies with the sorcerers. Up to 20" move for optimal psychic support and more durable than with a jump pack. They can also take a 2nd combi-bolter for 8 shots a turn, one of which can upgrade to Angelsbane for some really solid shooting, at least for a support character. Not to mention making use of Council of Traitors for a bonus Warlord Trait. I know a lot of people like terminator sorcerers but I don't like how slow they are and I would never deep strike them because imo they should be casting powers as often as possible to justify their points. *Something I noticed afterwards is that they're also better against the ever present Vindicare as they're T5 and arn't infantry, so they get wounded on a 4+ instead of a 2+.

 

I really think these are sleeper units for us now if run in this specific way as it makes the most of what Black Legion offers as a legion. 

 

Thoughts? Has anyone had any success running bikes recently?

[Khornestar]

Anyone play around with the Veteran Raider trait? I’m envious of that one, wish it was a codex WL trait. Potential for so much fun with many many different units and configurations.

[Abaddon303]

Bikes are great, I actually run them as Abaddon's bodyguard and it's suprisingly effective. You can advance Abaddon and the bikes keep up with him easily. Give them triple plasma and you're still hitting on 3s refilling with all those bolters and plasma. T5 and 2 wounds makes them a little harder to shift and allows you to get Abaddon up the board whilst still utilising his rerolls efficiently in a fast moving castle.

The new +1 attack rule means they can be a little more effective in melee too.

My only problem with bikers is I only have 6...

[Closet Skeleton]

Anyone play around with the Veteran Raider trait? I’m envious of that one, wish it was a codex WL trait. Potential for so much fun with many many different units and configurations.

 

I used it on my Dark Apostle when I took my Abaddon and 98 friends list after the 5+ command point regain turned out to be almost useless since I was spending all 15 of my CP on the first two turns.

 

Its not exciting but it has uses when you're getting extra warlord traits from council of traitors. There are going to be games where it doesn't do anything.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Still trying to peel the smile off my face after seeing Shock Assault and thinking about the combos with some of the BL stuff (Merciless Fighters, anyone?).

To the new folks thinking about what to buy, Terminators can function IF you keep them cheap. Chainaxe/Combi-Bolter with maybe one Chainfist or other big CC weapon. Combi-Plasma if you're planning on some kind of power combo. Make it as easy as possible for them to get their points back before they inevitably die.

[Prot]

This Shock Assault thing is good, not great but good. I still see it helping my BL characters the most but I will say one thing... the game is largely shooting and one unit that everyone hyped up was Possessed. I love them.. .always, always have loved Possessed as an idea, a narrative, and a terror squad on the table.

 

I never saw them as the power unit everyone was acting like they would be at release, but this is a little nugget of hope. A small, but potentially very helpful piece to my efforts on these guys. 

 

I went the hard and long route of making 10 man squads, using Rhino's and supporting with Dark Apostles, and the Elite Posssed, and MoP's as well! I tried pretty hard to make this work. My biggest issue was relying on too much support and against flying armies it was nearly useless as a tactic. I may try again just because of Shock Assault.

[MegaVolt87]

Shock assault is a great buff, so much so I am now thinking of doing this list I drafted up a while back as my next CSM army.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328488-the-bringers-of-despair-a-black-legion-community/?p=5309112

 

Probably add 2 JP hammer lords and standard raptors, since they are cheap, more attacks and just for body count to get to 2k points. I had a black tide BL army in 3-4th ed as my first army, that was mid range + melee, I loved the play style. Earliest I could do it is next year, still have so many IW's to do in the meantime.... 

[GrimdarkDragon]

Greetings fellow heretics! I am new around here and am glad to have chosen the Black Legion as a army to get back into the hobby with. I am in the middle of creating my warband, but when I finally do reveal the name and story, I do hope it is something others will enjoy.

 

WE ARE RETURNED!

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Welcome

[Sonoftherubric21]

This Shock Assault thing is good, not great but good. I still see it helping my BL characters the most but I will say one thing... the game is largely shooting and one unit that everyone hyped up was Possessed. I love them.. .always, always have loved Possessed as an idea, a narrative, and a terror squad on the table.

 

I never saw them as the power unit everyone was acting like they would be at release, but this is a little nugget of hope. A small, but potentially very helpful piece to my efforts on these guys. 

 

I went the hard and long route of making 10 man squads, using Rhino's and supporting with Dark Apostles, and the Elite Posssed, and MoP's as well! I tried pretty hard to make this work. My biggest issue was relying on too much support and against flying armies it was nearly useless as a tactic. I may try again just because of Shock Assault.

 

It feels like their top-tier potential is incredible BUT you need to commit tons of resources to them for return. This also depends on your opponent. a Flyer spam army against that wouldn't be a fun or useful game for potential on either side lol. 

 

Or you could just take Obliterators and a squad of Zerkers and get near the same output....its an annoying level of opportunity cost. For sure. 

 

I would also argue that the Possessed Word Bearers may have equivocal, if not far better, potential with less needed resources (some CP for sure) and a caster that you would take anyway with a stellar relic. 

 

I think with Black Legion we have D3 + 1 (Hateful) +1 Merciless if the unit outnumbers. The random attacks is mitigated.

 

Under Word Bearers with a nearby Master of Union lord (+1 attack to all possessed nearby) you get D3 +1 Master +1 Shock AND they become D2. (The D2 is kinda the kicker) but add to this the fact that Master of Union affects nearby Greater possessed meaning they slam into something with SEVEN attacks with a very solid statline. 

 

Either of these can be comboed with Ritualist Daemonkin and a nearby Master of Possession to allow for +1 on top of it for a CP If you wanted to commit this much to the build. IMHO in that case I would probably run 40 possessed, or 30 at least in 15/15. It is very much an "all in" strategy. I do hope eventually someday when we get a new kit that they re-do the statline so that they are the rumored Chaos answer to aggressors but lacking guns. (along with the rumored 3 Wound statline to accompany). Its strange because my Greater Possessed have never let me down, they hit hard and fight really well with what is effectively a weaker powerfist. Not a bad unit by any stretch. 

 

I love possessed in the lore and in the novels its one of those interesting character developments, but on the table the Greater Possessed are (to my eyes) the ACCURATE version of what possessed should be. Its like Venom or Carnage on crack, with a similar body count! 

[Closet Skeleton]

I think Word Bearers have the better possessed but neither of them will be viable at 22 points per model. At 18 points per model and that further 5 point reduction on rhinos both will be usable but still suffer from being melee units in a shooting game.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I think Word Bearers have the better possessed but neither of them will be viable at 22 points per model. At 18 points per model and that further 5 point reduction on rhinos both will be usable but still suffer from being melee units in a shooting game.

Aren't Possessed down to 20ppm now or am I missing something? I agree that 18 would be great, but I don't think they're at 22 anymore. Is there another supporting cost being averaged that I didn't see (Icon, buffing unit, etc.)?

[Closet Skeleton]

 

I think Word Bearers have the better possessed but neither of them will be viable at 22 points per model. At 18 points per model and that further 5 point reduction on rhinos both will be usable but still suffer from being melee units in a shooting game.

Aren't Possessed down to 20ppm now or am I missing something? I agree that 18 would be great, but I don't think they're at 22 anymore. Is there another supporting cost being averaged that I didn't see (Icon, buffing unit, etc.)?

 

I forgot they'd gone down in chapter approved.

[Midnightmare]

Greetings fellow Legionnaires, looking to get back in the hobby and a I have quick question -

 

If I were to take a Black Legion Lord on a Juggernaut, I would be taking him from the index armed with a Chainsword.

 

Change his detachment to ‘Bringers of Despair’ for 1CP

 

Give him Ghorisvex’s teeth for another 1CP (in addition to his first Chainsword?)

 

Profit?

 

I don’t own the Vigilus Ablaze book you see. Abaddon is my Warlord, and thinking of a secondary HQ. Looking at a Daemon Prince or a Sorcerer. Any other tricks I could make a Juggerlord more killy? I will be primarily playing 1750pts, using 2 squads of Terminators, Bikers (travelling with Mr Jugger) a Deredeo and Rapier Laser Destroyers, some Havocs if points allow and for troops some min size CSM :tu:

Edited November 28, 2019 by Midnightmare

[Khornestar]

Talisman relic for advance + charge is nice, though no weapon relic would be possible at that point.

[Midnightmare]

Thinking a Thunder Hammer could be a good weapon to be bringing with the Talisman?

[Khornestar]

Thinking a Thunder Hammer could be a good weapon to be bringing with the Talisman?

 

Man, for a hot second it was definitely the best weapon a juggerlord could take. However, in the last round of big FAQ/errata updates, they said index (soon to be "legacy") units can't take thunder hammers. I believe they intend points to be current for upgrades to index units, but restrict them only to the options they had available when their rules were written.

 

Power fists also strike at S10, just variable damage. However, 9 points versus 40... A juggerlord is already pretty expensive for what he does, so IMO slapping a now 40 point upgrade is too much. On a jump lord or other infantry characters, slightly more reasonable. 

[Midnightmare]

Fair points all, that is quite a big points difference!

 

Noting that the Juggernaut movement is only 8” I think the Talisman is definitely the better artefact when compared to the Chainsword, especially as he will be competing with my Slaanesh Daemon Prince with wings for a spot, and be hanging out with Bikers :tu:

[Closet Skeleton]

Change his detachment to ‘Bringers of Despair’ for 1CP

 

I don’t own the Vigilus Ablaze book you see. Abaddon is my Warlord, and thinking of a secondary HQ. Looking at a Daemon Prince or a Sorcerer.

 

Bringers of Despair does nothing for Abaddon unfortunately, the stratagems are all morale based, the relic is a irrelevant axe that sorcerers can't take and the warlord trait is a reroll bubble that's redundant with Abaddon around and the keyword and therefore most of the stuff only with the exception of a morale mitigation stratagem works purely on terminators anyway. Its not useless in a terminator spam army but its a waste of CP otherwise. Black Legion have Council of Traitors so you do benefit a lot from taking a Dark Apostle and Sorcerer for your other HQs, its worth it for the reroll 1s warlord trait on the sorcerer alone.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Closet Skeleton

[Midnightmare]

 

 

Change his detachment to ‘Bringers of Despair’ for 1CP

 

I don’t own the Vigilus Ablaze book you see. Abaddon is my Warlord, and thinking of a secondary HQ. Looking at a Daemon Prince or a Sorcerer.

Bringers of Despair does nothing for Abaddon unfortunately, the stratagems are all morale based, the relic is a irrelevant axe that sorcerers can't take and the warlord trait is a reroll bubble that's redundant with Abaddon around and the keyword and therefore most of the stuff only with the exception of a morale mitigation stratagem works purely on terminators anyway. Its not useless in a terminator spam army but its a waste of CP otherwise. Black Legion have Council of Traitors so you do benefit a lot from taking a Dark Apostle and Sorcerer for your other HQs, its worth it for the reroll 1s warlord trait on the sorcerer alone.

Yeah I get what you mean, a shame really - who doesn’t want to call their Terminators the Bringers of Despair! I am only running two squads so prob best doing without.

 

I have had some thoughts on a Khorne Lord with a Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer (despite the cost) and the Spineshiver Blade - the extra attacks would be at strength 5 and may well prove worthwhile for a shade over 130pts.. Any fancy buffs worthwhile in him? It would leave me enough spare points to squeeze in a Sorcerer

[Closet Skeleton]

Thunder hammers are going up to 40 points in chapter approved, relic slot weapons have an advantage in not costing that many points.

 

The black legion relic chainsword is better than the spineshiver blade.

 

Spamming lords just isn't something I do for fluff reasons so I don't really have an opinion and don't use smash-captain style play. I always take a dark apostle or extra sorcerer or even an exalted champion instead and use buffed units over heroes.

 

Master of Executions is alright if you want a cheap hitting things hero.

[Midnightmare]

The good thing about my heroes (villains!) is that I always magnetize them, so point increases/weapon effectiveness tend not to worry me. Lessons I have learned the hard way!

 

Going to be trying out the Chainsword for sure, same with Spineshiver Blade - I have always found Daemon Weapons the most fun with the D6 hits despite rolling my fair share of 1’s.....my skill at that is legendary.

 

I don’t use Apostle’s or the Master of Executions, as I don’t tune much in the way of transports so need TDA, Bikes or Jump Pack flavour Sorcerer.