dracpanzer Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Not ruleswise. They're 2W seraphim superiors WT=warlord trait and yea, 5 wounds 40 Meltabombs cover the cost of the Geminae as well? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4615718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother carc Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Seems to do so. There's only one point value and no mention of anything else. I'll go back today and try to grab a picture of the page Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4615723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dracpanzer Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 If she is all you say she is for that cost, and can still join units, thats insane. Â My regular opponents would be begging me to run my 6 dom squad build. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4615726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERJAK Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 If she is all you say she is for that cost, and can still join units, thats insane. Â My regular opponents would be begging me to run my 6 dom squad build. Agreed, 2+4++ 5w EW for 200points is pretty nuts even without the resurrect. Or everything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4615736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant of Dante Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 She does sound like she'll be bad at fighting anything that's actually good in cc. Â The Gemini rules sound neat. I still don't like the warpy fluff for Celestine, but that ship has clearly sailed. Now I have to decide whether to accept it or write it all off. The fluff I've seen so far is (imo) stupid enough that I'm not going to have much of a problem ignoring it. Â Sorry I'm kinda annoyed right now Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4615740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERJAK Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 She does sound like she'll be bad at fighting anything that's actually good in cc. Â The Gemini rules sound neat. I still don't like the warpy fluff for Celestine, but that ship has clearly sailed. Now I have to decide whether to accept it or write it all off. The fluff I've seen so far is (imo) stupid enough that I'm not going to have much of a problem ignoring it. Â Sorry I'm kinda annoyed right now Attach a Chapter Master on a bike. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4615769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.T. Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 She does sound like she'll be bad at fighting anything that's actually good in cc. It's the 2+ saves that will stop her. Assuming her stats are unchanged and the twins have four attacks on the charge then the three of them combined, charging in, would inflict... about 3/4 of a wound on a generic T4 2+ save model. Â Hit and run, pick a softer target. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4615785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dracpanzer Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017  She does sound like she'll be bad at fighting anything that's actually good in cc.  It's the 2+ saves that will stop her. Assuming her stats are unchanged and the twins have four attacks on the charge then the three of them combined, charging in, would inflict... about 3/4 of a wound on a generic T4 2+ save model. Hit and run, pick a softer target. I always prefer to use meltaguns on 2+ saves, and I have them by the score. Using Celestine against 2+, well, you are doing it wrong.  The kicker is that she "reportedly" can still join a unit along with her Geminae. Speaking strictly Sisters, a squad of Seraphim rolling shred to roast the 2+ you might have to charge if you can't avoid it. Carries through the rest of the turn now, might make for a bit more than 3/4 a wound I bet. Against anything less than 2+ and that combo will wreck someone's day.  Any word yet on what the AoF that Celestine gives other units? From the WD battle report it just seemed like a morale effect, but they never explained it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4615812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 So I ended up posting this on Dakka about some backlash over Celestine but I think it fits here too: Â We don't have proof that the warp itself is the source of the power which leaves a less psyker solution: the warp is a medium for the Emperor's light (like a river bed full of water). His light (by means of the Golden Throne) carries to all corners of the galaxy, likewise it could reach the saints of the Imperium through the warp the same way without being of the warp. It could also be the means sanctioned psykers us to derive their powers: by forging a connection to the Emperor's light over the warp thus making them safer than warp touched witches. Â Any psychic residue in any of the powers? A side effect of feeding the souls of psykers to the Golden Throne to keep it going and not actual psychic powers from the warp. Â But that's my interpretation without reading the whole story. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4615842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dracpanzer Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I don't see how it matters. The warp is the conduit of "divine" energy in the 40k universe. To me the difference between psychic powers and AoF is that one is manifested by psykers bending the warp to their will through their witch powers. The other are manifestations of the Emperors favor for the benefit of the Sisters who are not psykers. I'm sure you could say that being mortal beings the Sisters spirits do have an influence in the warp, but singing prayers over the din of battle doesn't even come close to being a psyker. Â Even with Celestine, the blurb says that she goes willingly, but the decision to send her comes from the Big E. He puts her together and sends her out to wreck face. Its not an issue for me, Celestine and the SoB serve their God willingly, he blesses them with his guidance and protection. The other 40k gods are filth and speak only Heresy. Â In other words, don't feed the trolls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4615894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant of Dante Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I don't see how it matters. The warp is the conduit of "divine" energy in the 40k universe. To me the difference between psychic powers and AoF is that one is manifested by psykers bending the warp to their will through their witch powers. The other are manifestations of the Emperors favor for the benefit of the Sisters who are not psykers. I'm sure you could say that being mortal beings the Sisters spirits do have an influence in the warp, but singing prayers over the din of battle doesn't even come close to being a psyker.  Even with Celestine, the blurb says that she goes willingly, but the decision to send her comes from the Big E. He puts her together and sends her out to wreck face. Its not an issue for me, Celestine and the SoB serve their God willingly, he blesses them with his guidance and protection. The other 40k gods are filth and speak only Heresy.  In other words, don't feed the trolls. Sorry if I'm a Troll :P Just trying to explain my position. Anyway, moving on . . . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4615907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqui Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 People conveniently forget that the Warp isn't just composed of the Chaos Gods. Think of the Warp as Yin and Yang - positive and negative. The part of the Warp that Imperials use is the opposite of what powers Chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4615913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 Do not forget that the gods themselves are schizophrenic about their own themes. Khiren is both martial honorable and senseless butchering for example. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4615920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.T. Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Using Celestine against 2+, well, you are doing it wrong. Â Well that is the crux of the issue - Celestine is the big damn hero of the faction, but using her to engage enemy characters (including, notably, the character presented as her key adversary in her new release) is 'doing it wrong'. Using her to engage any elite heavily armour unit is wrong, and she really should be avoiding anything with a high toughness too like daemon primarchs and greater daemons. Â She is Celestine, slayer of rhinos and tactical marines :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4616084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant of Dante Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Using Celestine against 2+, well, you are doing it wrong. Well that is the crux of the issue - Celestine is the big damn hero of the faction, but using her to engage enemy characters (including, notably, the character presented as her key adversary in her new release) is 'doing it wrong'. Using her to engage any elite heavily armour unit is wrong, and she really should be avoiding anything with a high toughness too like daemon primarchs and greater daemons. She is Celestine, slayer of rhinos and tactical marines ^this. She's the hero of the faction, but rather than an avenging angel (regardless of how I see her fluff that's how I think of her) she plays more as a specialized precision weapon. *shrug* I suppose there's nothing wrong with that, and Strength 5 is respectable, but with no way of getting by 2+ saves, she has to be careful about where she goes on the board, but I at least don't want her wasting turns trying to find a good target, since she's so expensive (and close combat is fun :P) But it sounds like she will still work well with Seraphim. Just, I would never let her fight Abbadon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4616291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isolia Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Â Using Celestine against 2+, well, you are doing it wrong. Well that is the crux of the issue - Celestine is the big damn hero of the faction, but using her to engage enemy characters (including, notably, the character presented as her key adversary in her new release) is 'doing it wrong'. Using her to engage any elite heavily armour unit is wrong, and she really should be avoiding anything with a high toughness too like daemon primarchs and greater daemons. Â She is Celestine, slayer of rhinos and tactical marines :p But that's how you win wars :) Â It is also a boon if you ask me, if she jumps at an infantry unit, it protects our troops from said unit. We then have the chance to throw our heavy hitters (dominions, exorcists, pen engines depending on the situation ) towards the bad bosses while keeping them safe from infantry thanks to other assets which include Celestine. It makes for a dissymmetric board which can be an advantage. Trick is to make it work, granted ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4616295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dracpanzer Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Â Using Celestine against 2+, well, you are doing it wrong. Â Â Well that is the crux of the issue - Celestine is the big damn hero of the faction, but using her to engage enemy characters (including, notably, the character presented as her key adversary in her new release) is 'doing it wrong'. Using her to engage any elite heavily armour unit is wrong, and she really should be avoiding anything with a high toughness too like daemon primarchs and greater daemons. Â She is Celestine, slayer of rhinos and tactical marines :p I would say that mixing the story of what she is doing in the book with what some want her to do on the table is always going to miss the mark. In the book she manages to stab Abbadon, there's that 3/4 of a wound for you. Â On the table for me, she has always been a jump pack heavy flamer that can put some wounds down on 3+ reliably, more importantly she brings hit and run and Initiative 7. If they give her EW like we are hearing along with the Geminae and the ability to join a unit she's getting a huge buff. Is she a chapter master on a bike? Â No, but I don't need her to be. Like I said earlier, meltaguns are my favorite way to deal with 2+ not my jump pack heavy flamer girl who helps keep all the pretty girls alive by running away when they have to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4616316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackScorpion22 Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Â Â Using Celestine against 2+, well, you are doing it wrong. Â Well that is the crux of the issue - Celestine is the big damn hero of the faction, but using her to engage enemy characters (including, notably, the character presented as her key adversary in her new release) is 'doing it wrong'. Using her to engage any elite heavily armour unit is wrong, and she really should be avoiding anything with a high toughness too like daemon primarchs and greater daemons. Â She is Celestine, slayer of rhinos and tactical marines :p I would say that mixing the story of what she is doing in the book with what some want her to do on the table is always going to miss the mark. In the book she manages to stab Abbadon, there's that 3/4 of a wound for you. Â On the table for me, she has always been a jump pack heavy flamer that can put some wounds down on 3+ reliably, more importantly she brings hit and run and Initiative 7. If they give her EW like we are hearing along with the Geminae and the ability to join a unit she's getting a huge buff. Is she a chapter master on a bike? Â No, but I don't need her to be. Like I said earlier, meltaguns are my favorite way to deal with 2+ not my jump pack heavy flamer girl who helps keep all the pretty girls alive by running away when they have to. Speaking of this, do we have confirmation that she kept her hit-and-run special rule? Â On another topic, I would have liked to see her be only able to join units of seraphim, which would prevent silly death stars that celestine used to join specifically to give them hit and run. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4616333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant of Dante Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Well, Dante is I 6 with Hit and Run, so there's already that opportunity, and with him being S6 AP 2 and hitting at initiative (for just a few more points than Celestine+friends apparently), I'm not sure it's really giving anyone a new exploit. But I would be annoyed if Celestine started showing up in tons of lists were she's the only Sister present. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4616341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 People conveniently forget that the Warp isn't just composed of the Chaos Gods. Think of the Warp as Yin and Yang - positive and negative. The part of the Warp that Imperials use is the opposite of what powers Chaos. Â Would love a source on that one, because I think not. Â Its not opposite, its the same stuff used by someone else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4616365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.T. Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Well, Dante is I 6 with Hit and Run, so there's already that opportunity, and with him being S6 AP 2 and hitting at initiative (for just a few more points than Celestine+friends apparently) He's a few points more with ~4 wounds on the charge against T4 2+, has a melta pistol, 4 wounds of eternal warrior, some other odds and ends. Hits a little softer against low toughness 3+ or worse saves but harder against big targets like wraightknights and magnus. Though probably better off assaulting from deepstrike with his golden host formation than hanging out with a deathstar - there are always white scars for hit and run. Â If i'm not mistaken Celestine is now the same cost as the Sanguinor? Another AP3 sword user. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4616373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackScorpion22 Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Well, Dante is I 6 with Hit and Run, so there's already that opportunity, and with him being S6 AP 2 and hitting at initiative (for just a few more points than Celestine+friends apparently), I'm not sure it's really giving anyone a new exploit. But I would be annoyed if Celestine started showing up in tons of lists were she's the only Sister present. Dante is also a LoW, which severely limits how he can't be fitted into non-BA armies and even some BA formations. I wouldn't mind seeing Celestine be a sisters LoW, since we now have a cheap HQ in the form of priests and being LoW would ensure people have to take at least a cad of sisters to use celestine. non sisters armies can always take the triumverate formation to get celestine but it is point expensive so I am OK with that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4616385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 However, Celestine is miles ahead of the Sanguinor. She is tougher, can get back up and has respawning ablativ wounds. To be fair, I do not really mind AP3. Sure, it is cool to have the main character of a faction to handle anything, a la Thunderwolf Lord. But here is the thing, I do not see glory in war. In this case I take th DA approach. There is no pleasure in killing, but it is a necessity and need to be done with utmost efficiency to avoid unnecessary casualties and waste of resource. And a sole character, as strong as he might be, will still be inferior to a whole unit. I learned this from AoS. Stormcast characters, while solid, are better at supporting the army whereas the elite hitters are capable of toppling just about anything. That is what Celestine is. She is not a duelist. She is there to support as tank, chaff killer, safety net for routing units and her AoF bubble. She is a beacon of hope that will see her army prevail and not a glory hog who will go for the biggest enemy she can find. Leave the glory mongering to the SW, otherwise their ego might not be able to handle it :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4616386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dracpanzer Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 But I would be annoyed if Celestine started showing up in tons of lists were she's the only Sister present. If Celestine is all they say she is, and is an Imperial faction formation able to join units with her Geminae, you better get used to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4616387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Â But I would be annoyed if Celestine started showing up in tons of lists were she's the only Sister present. If Celestine is all they say she is, and is an Imperial faction formation able to join units with her Geminae, you better get used to it. Â Â Well, it gives players the opportunity to paint her differently and create our own Saint. Didn't Saint Sabbat have a running with Gaunt's Ghosts? It would awesome if they could represent that. As for the power games, who cares if they take her. They wouldn't give a rats arse who that model is in the fluff. They only see rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328820-the-return-of-celestine/page/12/#findComment-4616391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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