General Discussion Secundus

[Chief Captain Redd]

Hey brothers, I may be absent for the next week or so; I might pop in here or there. Emperor knows I need some escapism right now; one of my absolute dearest friends and a fellow 40k die-hard passed away after a hit and run. So I know I'm not going to be the most productive, for a bit.

[Nomus Sardauk]

The Djiin-Vah what now? :huh: Edited February 17, 2017 by SanguiniusReborn

[Skalpynock]

The Djiin-Vah what now? :huh:

Bastardised name of the Geneva Convention. A lesser known event of Imperial history that resulted in Raktra almost murdering the opposing party for their preposterous opinion on phosphex.

[Sigismund229]

Raktra: PHOSPHEX IS PART OF ANY HEALTHY, BALANCED WAR!

 

Redd: My condolences. Take as much time as you need

Edited February 17, 2017 by Sigismund229

[Sigismund229]

My start on a version of the Insurrection timeline with spoilers explaining what the event is. As you can see, I've tried to shoehorn in those legions who dissapear after the DoR wherever I can so that we don't have any who are ambushed and, for no discernable(in universe) reason, just vanish(something which afflicted the Scions Hospitalier, Drowned and Warriors of Peace)

 

031.M31

Day of Revelation

Taking place across the early months of the year 031.M31, the Day of Revelation was when Icarion and his legions first reveal their rebellion, ambushing the loyalist legions and inflicting heavy losses on all except the Halycon Wardens, who lose a few to battle and a number to defection. During these battles, two loyalist legions, the Iron Bears and Dune Serpents, are effectively shattered, losing their primarch and a good deal of their legion in the case of the Iron Bears and their primarch missing and losing 40% of their legion to defections in the case of the Dune Serpents. A third loyalist legion, the Void Eagles, lose a significant number of legionaries to defections severely reducing their strength when combined with the losses they take when ambushed by the (?), although not removing them from play.

 

By contrast, the only Insurrectionist legion to take significant losses were the Grave Stalkers, a small legion to begin with. The mauling they take from the Iron Bears cripples them as a legion for the first few years of the Insurrection and their numbers never recover sufficiently to be used as a conventional fighting force again.

 

031-032.M31

The Schism of Mars

As in canon, much of the Mechanicum led by Kelbor Hal side with the Insurrectionists(details to be filled in). However, fortunately for the Imperial Mechanicum, the Warmaster is on Terra when the Schism breaks out along with several thousand of his legion, a number which grows as more and more Halycon Wardens flood into the Sol System. Using this relatively undamaged force, the Warmaster’s forces, later joined by the Fire Keepers, gradually and bloodily retake Mars for the Emperor, forcing the Insurrectionist Mechanicum who haven’t already to flee.

 

031-033.M31

The Maelstrom Campaigns

As fighting spreads across the Imperium, Icarion makes a concerted effort to secure the heart of his power, the Maelstrom. Over the course of 2 years, his Harbingers gradually conquer it and its surrounding systems, sweeping aside the scattered Imperial resistance. While only a small seed compared to the vast expanse of the Imperium, this nucleus of systems are the seed from which Icarion’s empire will grow over the following few years.

 

035-036.M31

The Battle of the Forge

As he expands his empire, Icarion realises that while his resources are great, they are still not enough to keep his legions and armies supplied with war materials and recruits to fight the Insurrection, a war that is becoming far bloodier than anyone could have expected. With the legions steadily losing men and material at a rate never before seen, it needs replacing. So Icarion sends the Warbringers to bring the forge world of Iyacrax and its surrounding system into compliance, as it is second only to Mars in its production of arms and armour, having supplied 3% of legions supplies during the Great Crusade. The outer worlds fall quickly but the fighting on Iyacrax itself degenerates into a meatgrinder that reduces the world’s once great manufactories to ruins and rubble. Eventually, both sides agree that its not worth continuing the battle over Iyacrax’s ruins and withdraw. While Iyacrax remains nominally in Imperial hands, technically making it a pyrrhic Imperial victory, it’s a ghost of its former self, with almost nothing left to fight over.

 

038-047.M31

The campagins on the Eastern Fringe

Icarion sends the Steel Legion Drowned and Insurrectionist Dune Serpents to conquer the Eastern Fringe, garrisoned by the severely depleted Imperial Dune Serpents. However, the Dune Serpents don’t try and hold onto ground. Instead, they abandon the Imperial worlds of the Eastern Fringe and become a fluid force, waging a guerrilla war against the Insurrectionists and unleashing their full arsenal of chemical, biological and radiation weaponry. Using this and tactics of an unparalleled brutality, they fight the Insurrectionists to a standstill. While the Insurrectionists can take ground easily, they will then find the Dune Serpents rampaging through their backlines and disrupting their supply lines. Eventually, the Void Eagles get sent to retake lost ground on the Eastern Fringe and they interpret this as “retake or burn”.

 

041-043.M31

The Harrying of the North

Since the beginning of the Insurrection, the north of the Imperium has been a patchwork of conflicting loyalties. In 041.M31, Icarion sends the Berserkers of Uran and Grave Stalkers to rectify that situation by waging a campaign of terror and destruction across the north eastern Imperium to terrify its populace into joining his cause. They are opposed by the Iron Bears, seeking vengeance for their fallen father, and the Fire Keepers.

 

044.M31

Icarion’s first offensive towards Terra begins

Feeling that he’s now strong enough to attempt it, Icarion launches a three pronged attack on Terra and the Segmentum Solar. The northernmost prong is the Eagle Warriors, headed for Delos, the central prong are his own Harbingers and the southern prong is the Warriors of Peace. Bypassing spots of fierce resistance, they make good progress in their offensive.

 

045.M31

The battles of Delos and ?, Icarion’s first push towards Terra is halted following Alexandros’ signing the Edict of Emancipation

The Eagle Warriors launch an assault upon Delos, the homeworld of the Halycon Warden, the Warriors of Peace run into the Scions Hospitalier and the Harbingers are faced down by the freshly arrived and relatively unscathed Predators. With the fight for the gates of the Segmentum Solar resting on a knife edge, the Warmaster signs the Edict of Emancipation, an edict allowing xenos to serve in the Imperial Army. Aided by these new battalions of Xenos Auxilia, the Imperials halt the Insurrectionist advance.

. 

 

By the way, I'm still trying to think of an engagement which could show case that the Lions are Fidelitas Sine Recursu, so that it's actually shown(and also to fill the early gap in their role in the Insurrection atm). Anyone got any ideas?

Edited February 17, 2017 by Sigismund229

[Raktra]

Holy :cussnuts Redd, I can't fathom how you're feeling. Take care.

[Raktra]

My start on a version of the Insurrection timeline with spoilers explaining what the event is. As you can see, I've tried to shoehorn in those legions who dissapear after the DoR wherever I can so that we don't have any who are ambushed and, for no discernable(in universe) reason, just vanish(something which afflicted the Scions Hospitalier, Drowned and Warriors of Peace)

 

031.M31

Day of Revelation

Taking place across the early months of the year 031.M31, the Day of Revelation was when Icarion and his legions first reveal their rebellion, ambushing the loyalist legions and inflicting heavy losses on all except the Halycon Wardens, who lose a few to battle and a number to defection. During these battles, two loyalist legions, the Iron Bears and Dune Serpents, are effectively shattered, losing their primarch and a good deal of their legion in the case of the Iron Bears and their primarch missing and losing 40% of their legion to defections in the case of the Dune Serpents. A third loyalist legion, the Void Eagles, lose a significant number of legionaries to defections severely reducing their strength when combined with the losses they take when ambushed by the (?), although not removing them from play.

 

By contrast, the only Insurrectionist legion to take significant losses were the Grave Stalkers, a small legion to begin with. The mauling they take from the Iron Bears cripples them as a legion for the first few years of the Insurrection and their numbers never recover sufficiently to be used as a conventional fighting force again.

 

031-032.M31

The Schism of Mars

As in canon, much of the Mechanicum led by Kelbor Hal side with the Insurrectionists(details to be filled in). However, fortunately for the Imperial Mechanicum, the Warmaster is on Terra when the Schism breaks out along with several thousand of his legion, a number which grows as more and more Halycon Wardens flood into the Sol System. Using this relatively undamaged force, the Warmaster’s forces, later joined by the Fire Keepers, gradually and bloodily retake Mars for the Emperor, forcing the Insurrectionist Mechanicum who haven’t already to flee.

 

031-033.M31

The Maelstrom Campaigns

As fighting spreads across the Imperium, Icarion makes a concerted effort to secure the heart of his power, the Maelstrom. Over the course of 2 years, his Harbingers gradually conquer it and its surrounding systems, sweeping aside the scattered Imperial resistance. While only a small seed compared to the vast expanse of the Imperium, this nucleus of systems are the seed from which Icarion’s empire will grow over the following few years.

 

035-036.M31

The Battle of the Forge

As he expands his empire, Icarion realises that while his resources are great, they are still not enough to keep his legions and armies supplied with war materials and recruits to fight the Insurrection, a war that is becoming far bloodier than anyone could have expected. With the legions steadily losing men and material at a rate never before seen, it needs replacing. So Icarion sends the Warbringers to bring the forge world of Iyacrax and its surrounding system into compliance, as it is second only to Mars in its production of arms and armour, having supplied 3% of legions supplies during the Great Crusade. The outer worlds fall quickly but the fighting on Iyacrax itself degenerates into a meatgrinder that reduces the world’s once great manufactories to ruins and rubble. Eventually, both sides agree that its not worth continuing the battle over Iyacrax’s ruins and withdraw. While Iyacrax remains nominally in Imperial hands, technically making it a pyrrhic Imperial victory, it’s a ghost of its former self, with almost nothing left to fight over.

 

038-047.M31

The campagins on the Eastern Fringe

Icarion sends the Steel Legion Drowned and Insurrectionist Dune Serpents to conquer the Eastern Fringe, garrisoned by the severely depleted Imperial Dune Serpents. However, the Dune Serpents don’t try and hold onto ground. Instead, they abandon the Imperial worlds of the Eastern Fringe and become a fluid force, waging a guerrilla war against the Insurrectionists and unleashing their full arsenal of chemical, biological and radiation weaponry. Using this and tactics of an unparalleled brutality, they fight the Insurrectionists to a standstill. While the Insurrectionists can take ground easily, they will then find the Dune Serpents rampaging through their backlines and disrupting their supply lines. Eventually, the Void Eagles get sent to retake lost ground on the Eastern Fringe and they interpret this as “retake or burn”.

 

041-043.M31

The Harrying of the North

Since the beginning of the Insurrection, the north of the Imperium has been a patchwork of conflicting loyalties. In 041.M31, Icarion sends the Berserkers of Uran and Grave Stalkers to rectify that situation by waging a campaign of terror and destruction across the north eastern Imperium to terrify its populace into joining his cause. They are opposed by the Iron Bears, seeking vengeance for their fallen father, and the Fire Keepers.

 

044.M31

Icarion’s first offensive towards Terra begins

Feeling that he’s now strong enough to attempt it, Icarion launches a three pronged attack on Terra and the Segmentum Solar. The northernmost prong is the Eagle Warriors, headed for Delos, the central prong are his own Harbingers and the southern prong is the Warriors of Peace. Bypassing spots of fierce resistance, they make good progress in their offensive.

 

045.M31

The battles of Delos and ?, Icarion’s first push towards Terra is halted following Alexandros’ signing the Edict of Emancipation

The Eagle Warriors launch an assault upon Delos, the homeworld of the Halycon Warden, the Warriors of Peace run into the Scions Hospitalier and the Harbingers are faced down by the freshly arrived and relatively unscathed Predators. With the fight for the gates of the Segmentum Solar resting on a knife edge, the Warmaster signs the Edict of Emancipation, an edict allowing xenos to serve in the Imperial Army. Aided by these new battalions of Xenos Auxilia, the Imperials halt the Insurrectionist advance.

.

 

By the way, I'm still trying to think of an engagement which could show case that the Lions are Fidelitas Sine Recursu, so that it's actually shown(and also to fill the early gap in their role in the Insurrection atm). Anyone got any ideas?

I need to check relevant dates etc, but between the DoR and the Blood Crusade, there's a long stretch where the 'serkers are missing as they don't throw their lot in with any side and return to Uran to see what's went wrong there (Old Blood thing), so put a tentative pin in the dates you've got.

[bluntblade]

I suggest we mix the Legion forces a little more. Skal a D I discussed Pionus duelling Kozja, which nudges Kozja towards scheming to break away. Perhaps the Warbringers fight beside the Warriors of Peace.

 

Redd, that's horrid news. Take care, and I look forward to seeing you back here.

Edited February 17, 2017 by bluntblade

[MikhalLeNoir]

Don''t forget your legio. Heroes. Give them light^^.

 

 

By the way sig: in your szmmary the breaking of the wards and pinnong of the emperor is missing

[bluntblade]

I remember we re-opened the debate over how Iyacrax ends. Did we actually decide anything? If we simply have the Insurrectionists withdraw, I'd plump for making it a bitter and hard-fought retreat, and I'll recycle the First Exterminatus elsewhere.

[Sigismund229]

blunt: I thought we agreed to stick with the orignal and have the two sides agree a truce and leave seeing as there's nothing left worth fighting over. And on the subject of mixing legions more, I imagine that would happen more at a local level in "small"(relative term) engagements whereas these "grand" strategy elements would still have reasonably distinct units. So while mixing legions will deffinitely appear and should appear a lot in stories, on this grznd level it's rarer.

 

Raktra: I inserted the 'Serkers into the Harrying of the north. Seemed to make sense as Uran is in that neck of the woods. So that at least partly plugs that DoR=>Blood Crusade gap. The Lions have a similar problem, tey have the DoR then nothing until the Blood Crusade.

 

Mikhal: Apart from trying to avoid accusations of playing favourites with my legion and give the kegions whose users don't have as much time to be active some spotlight, I'm also trying to find a place that would make narrative sense for the Lions to be involved.

 

I shall add in the breaking of the Terran wards. Can't believe I missed that out.

 

EDIT: Sorry Raktra, just understood what you meant. I'll make the 'serkers involvement tentative.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Sigismund229

[bluntblade]

If I recall, the main change was that Kozja simply does not do graciousness to his enemies, and simply opts to withdraw quickly and efficiently.

 

I'm thinking I'll rehome the Exterminatus story to the start of the post-Blood Crusade push.

Edited February 17, 2017 by bluntblade

[Sigismund229]

If I recall, the main change was that Kozja simply does not do graciousness to his enemies, and simply opts to withdraw quickly and efficiently.

 

I'm thinking I'll rehome the Exterminatus story to the start of the post-Blood Crusade push.

It's not being gracious. It's accepting that the world has nothing of value left on it and going "Eh all right. You can have this heap of rubble" and withdrawing to fight somewhere where you'll be of some use

 

also, a thought on how the battle of the Forge can be fit into book 2's focus on the Eastern Fringe given that it's not located on the Eastern Fringe. How about the campaigns on the Eastern Fringe are the reason that the Insurrectionists are outstripping their available stockpiles and supplies of arms and armour so that's why the Warbringers are sent to Iyacrax. That way it's an invasion that starts as a "supporting" zction to the Eastern Fringe, showing how much the Eastern Fringe impacts the war but gradually spirals out of control into the meatgrinder Stalingrad IN SPACE we all know and love

Edited February 17, 2017 by Sigismund229

[bluntblade]

Pretty much. He'll just draw them to a halt, proclaim the world to be of no value and withdraw.

[Sigismund229]

Pretty much. He'll just draw them to a halt, proclaim the world to be of no value and withdraw.

In that case, if it's out of character for Kozja to go for a truce, we're agreed

[Skalpynock]

Sigi, as far as I understand it Blunt's statement about "mixing legions" isn't about having, say, a mixed army of WoP, zerkers and ghostwalkers fighting a mixed army of Bears, Wardens and Scions, and more about not having the same legions constantly fighting each other. Pionus and Morro having a series of duels over the course of the Insurrection shouldn't preclude the former from affronting Kozja at some point, or the Squid-Lord kicking out the face of a certain Eagle.

[Kelborn]

Agreed.

We should avoid focusing on a handful of Legions.

 

@Sigi: Your testament is good. There is just something about it that needs to be changed. Wilk think about it and let you know.

[Sigismund229]

Sigi, as far as I understand it Blunt's statement about "mixing legions" isn't about having, say, a mixed army of WoP, zerkers and ghostwalkers fighting a mixed army of Bears, Wardens and Scions, and more about not having the same legions constantly fighting each other. Pionus and Morro having a series of duels over the course of the Insurrection shouldn't preclude the former from affronting Kozja at some point, or the Squid-Lord kicking out the face of a certain Eagle.

I don't believe I did stick with certain legions fighting their "nemisis". At least when I was writing it I was trying to mix it up and give reasonably equal coverage to each legion. Did I fail?

[MikhalLeNoir]

Naaa, you never fail, you just have to make adjustments^^

 

 

I would like to see more marine action. Give the marines more screening time. Primarchs are grest but having the second row commit atrocities is cool as well. Maybe the black conda clan vs. A steel legion praetor.

[Big Bad Squig]

[Also, between Azus and Yucahu, which would commit more war crimes and which would resist harder against the rising Imperial Cult?]

I would guess from my interpretation of the two (and correct me if I'm wrong) that Azus would commit more (or at least take more enjoyment from) the war crimes, but in terms of the Imperial Cult I'm not sure that he would resist to an extreme extent - at least he could be persuaded to do this.

 

EDIT: Also I love the irony that the 40k-ed Geneva convention bears a similar name to the Dune Serpents unit loaded with chemical weapons ;)

Edited February 17, 2017 by Big Bad Squig

[simison]

Hey brothers, I may be absent for the next week or so; I might pop in here or there. Emperor knows I need some escapism right now; one of my absolute dearest friends and a fellow 40k die-hard passed away after a hit and run. So I know I'm not going to be the most productive, for a bit.

 

Redd, you have my condolences. Take all the time you need.

 

Thank you for the responses, Squig and Skal. I find it interesting that neither of them seem to be outright offended by the Imperial Cult. It sounds like they're either perplexed by it or vaguely amused. Alexandros obviously embraces it. Daer'dd can't protest though I'm curious how his sons react to it. 

 

Where does that leave Niklaas, Hectarion, and Santor?

[bluntblade]

I think the Bears as a whole will embrace it more readily than almost any of their cousins.

[Chief Captain Redd]

I think the Bears as a whole will embrace it more readily than almost any of their cousins.

This is correct.

 

And thanks everyone! Means a tonne to me.

[Kelborn]

My condolences to you, Redd.

 

All the best for you and your beloved ones.

 

 

I seconded Mikhals idea of focusing a bit more on certain characters / parts of Legions instead of solely Primarchs. FW / GW did that via the shattered Legions. Could do a couple of summary pages including campaigns of smaller sized forces, etc.

 

A Predators tribe against the Godslayers. WoL vs. WoP. Scions vs. Berzerkers. Something like skirmishes.

[Sigismund229]

A thought. Seeing as we have a few pieces of wargear that are more widespread than in canon, how about in book 1 we hve a "BotL wargear" section in which we detail them and make them acailable to groups of legions or every legion?

I'm thinking of three things particularly.

1. Hoplon/Tower/Bear shield. It's essentialy the same thing across 3 legions. So why not make it available to all legions fkr zone mortalis and then allow the CL, HW and IB to take it under any circumstances.

2. Underwater Arsenal. All the wargear the legions use for oceanic warfare. Available to any legion in an Underwater mission, can be taken by Scions and Drowned in any circumstance.

3. Tools of horror. Wargear relating to genetic buggery. Can only be taken by Warbringers, EW, BoU and WoP. Later can be taken by any with LA(Suzerainty) or LA(Insurrectionist)


EDIT: Some of the ideas I had

Underwater Arsenal:
A general rule:
Purpose Built: Wargear take from here suffers no ranged penalty from being used in underwater missions

Wargear:
Sonic Blaster: Like EC sonic weaponry

Sealed Bolter: A bolter designed to be used underwater and so is designed to function underwater. Has a range of 12", is assault rather than rapid fire and has gets hot(to show the chance of its more elaborate parts malfunctioning).

Lumen Pack: May only be taken on 1 model per squad. Allows the squad to ignore the effects of Night Fighting.

Sonic Charges: Sonic grenades. Perhaps can only be taken by destroyers in normal legions, any sergeant for the Drowned or Scions? Short range, monstrously high strength.

Pressurized armour: Units wearing this treat all terrain as difficult terrain but gain slow and purposeful and may re roll tests to see if they get crushed by the water? Actually scratch that. Just make it so that they can upgrade to using void hardened armour.

Vapour gun: Shoots super heated metal through the water, aiming to kill the foe by heating the water around him/her to such a degree that he boils. Perhaps has a lower strength in non underwater missions to discourage its use?

 

Tools of Horror

Rapens pattern narcethium: Used to quickly, messily extract loyalist gene-seed. Functions as with normal narcethium but causes Fear. Any apothacery from those legions allowed to use wargear from Tools of Horror my take one. 

 

Gene Wrecker Missiles: Designed by one of the Insurrectionist primarchs(Alexos or Jade maybe). Uses the gene-seed against the marine it hits, destroying their body from the inside out. May be taken by missile launcher armed hvy support squad and fired once per game. Has rending and poison against squads with Legiones Astartes. 

Edited February 18, 2017 by Sigismund229