+ Tactica and Strategica - A Comprehensive Review +

[Race Bannon]

Sons of Corax Unit Discussions

+++ CONNECTION ESTABLISHED +++

Sons of Corax!

Through the millennia, our duties for the Imperium have not ended. The enemies against the Emperor are numerous. His armies continue to march toward, and be a bulwark against, the unceasing tide which seeks to drown His glorious work. Yet, hidden the shadows we plan and we wait. After we strike, we learn.

Before we learn about our enemies, we must first know about ourselves: nosce to ipsum. Yet, we must also fully comprehend the tools of war at our disposal. We can thus know what force to apply in order to destroy.

Your experience adds to the Codex Astartes.

Victorus aut Mortis!

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The Raven Guard are well-known for their post-battle analysis. A performance review, so to speak. From pict-capture, survivor accounts and command node records, information is scrutinized to determine strengths and weaknesses at tactical and strategic levels. Optimization of resources and formations can make the difference between success and failure in the next engagement.

This thread will aggregate future discussions with the intent to be placed with the "Resources" thread pinned above.

The project will cull from the experienced; novices are encouraged to query and share ideas. Points of view from Successor Chapters are needed as well.

Organization of future threads will be based on available sources:

• Units and Formations as they appear within the current Codex: Space Marine
• Formations within the Raven Guard section of Angels of Death

• Units and Formations from other source material such as Kauyon

Thread discussion will start shortly after this notification.

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Shadow Captain Shrike

Captain / Chapter Master

Librarian

Chaplain

[Race Bannon]

So, this project was a way to get us to discuss the merits and detractions of units found in Codex: Space Marines, along with relevance within the Angels of Death supplement.

 

Although I think there is value to be had to restart this project by focusing on each unit as it relates to the Raven Guard and the Successor Chapters, there are a growing number of threads in the general Astartes forum that is doing the same thing.

 

Should this project be closed to allow for "organic" discussions, or should we continue the idea and have dedicated threads to each unit for reference?

 

Hidden Content

I cleaned up discussion in this thread as it was meant to be an index to the other topics linked in Post 1.

[Bedouin2]

I like the idea of each unit having a dedicated thread for reference. I've been learning a lot reading over everyone's battle reports and experience with units that's it's helped me in deciding what units to get to start a force so I can finally play. Also it's shed new light on units that I'd dismissed simply because I didn't like the models.

 

It would be of tremendous use for beginning players, and of course offer the veterans with new knowledge and tactics as well.

[9x19 Parabellum]

The only other thing I would add to this is that we are literally no different than any other SM chapter with the exception of having Shrike (while others have their special characters).

 

Maybe this has been answered elsewhere, but am I correct in that there are no such things as chapter tactics anymore?  Chapter is now just a color of the rainbow?

[Race Bannon]

The only other thing I would add to this is that we are literally no different than any other SM chapter with the exception of having Shrike (while others have their special characters).

 

Maybe this has been answered elsewhere, but am I correct in that there are no such things as chapter tactics anymore?  Chapter is now just a color of the rainbow?

 

For now, yes.  A true "Codex" is slated for later and that may change this up for certain Chapters such as Dark Angels and Space Wolves who have always had a special Codex attached to them since 2nd edition.  For Chapters like the Raven Guard and Salamanders it is an unknown factor.

 

Yet, the point of these threads would be how we use these units for our beloved Chapter (s).  You do make a point that, currently, the RG are the same as every other Codex Chapter ... on the table.  Since these thread exist with that foundation (how they play on the table), then it is really up to us, as Raven Guard enthusiast, to define how each unit is used (if at all) and in what capacity with respect to the traditional "Raven Guard" doctrines.  Sure, we can use Dreadnoughts ... but do we?  Why would we?  Why wouldn't they be used, etc, etc.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Yep, I understand. I wasn't trying to be pedantic.  I'm just a little behind the power curve on what the Codexes can do/mean because I'm not one to look at PDF spoilers for the past 2 to 3 weeks and I needed the actual physical book in my hot little hands before I really started digging in to stuff.  So basically I'm just kinda starting to find this stuff out for myself and I noticed the other night when looking at the Codex that there were no specifically defined chapter tactics...just chapter keywords.  So part of my response was confirming that.

 

In terms of making a Raven Guard list fluffy, I don't have enough fluff knowledge to contribute anything meaningful to that.  I do love scouts and jump infantry so I see the appeal there, but I also don't have (literally) any 8th edition experience so can't say much about that. My first game will be tomorrow and I'm looking forward to it.

 

In any event: carry on!

[Race Bannon]

Oh, yeah I agree.  I have very little experience with 8th myself.  I mean, I just rolled dice with hypothetical situations versus actual games ^_^

 

Any feedback is appreciated :tu:

[9x19 Parabellum]

One thing I noticed that I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere; the rules for Sniper Rifles are very specific and peculiarly worded.

 

It states that "on a roll of 6+ (to wound) it deals a mortal wound in additon to its normal damage"

 

This suggests to me that, when rolling to wound with a sniper rifle, a roll of '6' deals actually 2 wounds.  1 is a mortal wound, the other a regular wound.  Since mortal wounds 'spill over', this suggests to me that a sniper rifle can actually kill 2 guys with a single shot (provided each target is a 1 wound model and the regular wound fails its armor save).

 

Does that sound right to you guys?

[Race Bannon]

WHICH can be discussed in a different thread ^_^

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

In the context of this thread, I feel having a tactica discussion at this point is probably fruitless. Like you said organic unit by unit discussions (especially those we all own/use) probably makes the most sense.

 

That being said I see no reason to nuke the thread as I'm sure we can return to our old format once the units get hammered out and we get our chapter tactics equivalent l.

[Gobur]

As of now I think we should reopen this thread. Please reply with a link if it is done elsewhere.

[duz_]

If someone wants to start a weekly unit of the thread feel free

 

Although probably best to limit it initially to those which benefit most from our supplement

 

:tu:

[Dracos]

I was thinking we should also start a thread linking various post that have been started.

[dode74]

I figure that this should go in here, but apologies if it's in the wrong place.

 

Raven Guard Lascannon Centurions.  I like them, and I think they are fairly good value at 50pts per lascannon when you compare with the gold standard 42pts per cannon of the Contemptor Mortis.  For the 24pts you get 36 Hurricane Bolter shots, ignore cover, and can move and fire without penalty.  They lose that important 5++ though. 

 

Raven Guard access to this, though:

SHADOWMASTER CLOAK

 

Woven from helical strands of auto-prognostic Kiavahran mirrorsteel,

a Shadowmaster Cloak allows its wearer to blend seamlessly into their

surroundings, making them masters of evasion and ambush.

 

A model with this Relic has a 3+ invulnerable save whilst they are

wholly on or in a terrain feature.

 

 

 

Thoughts on giving it to the Sgt to ameliorate that lack of invuln?

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

 

I figure that this should go in here, but apologies if it's in the wrong place.

 

Raven Guard Lascannon Centurions.  I like them, and I think they are fairly good value at 50pts per lascannon when you compare with the gold standard 42pts per cannon of the Contemptor Mortis.  For the 24pts you get 36 Hurricane Bolter shots, ignore cover, and can move and fire without penalty.  They lose that important 5++ though. 

 

Raven Guard access to this, though:

SHADOWMASTER CLOAK

 

Woven from helical strands of auto-prognostic Kiavahran mirrorsteel,

a Shadowmaster Cloak allows its wearer to blend seamlessly into their

surroundings, making them masters of evasion and ambush.

 

A model with this Relic has a 3+ invulnerable save whilst they are

wholly on or in a terrain feature.

 

 

 

Thoughts on giving it to the Sgt to ameliorate that lack of invuln?

 

 

I considered the same, then re-read the stratagem. It doesn't include the cloak in its list of Sergeant-giveable options.

 

I wanted to do the same on my Aggressor blob. Sad day :( 

[dode74]

Yeah, I just realised that myself.  Ah well.

[Bluflash]

I'll again sing the praise of the Grav Cent. With the stratagem and CM aura each grav cannon hits as hard as 3, BS 3+, Las cannons, and for those times when the Las-Cannon isn't necessary, the four shots of better heavy bolter can be used. Las Cannons also impose a range mis-match, and the cannons are cheaper for what is, with 1 CP, more Las-Cannons. Keep them outside 12' and they will last a long time with their effective 1+, which is better than a 5++ in most cases (Dev Doctine Las is still a 5+, other AT usually a 4+). 

[Brom MKIV]

Personally I'd like to discuss character builds. With the price change to hammers and the new options enabled by the book I think we have some interesting options yet to be explored. I'll just post a couple I've been messing with lately:

 

 

Skull smash captains

 

I think the skull of korvaad is potentially a hidden gem.  To refresh, once per turn (meaning not if you fight a second time) each attack can re-roll either the hit, wound, or damage result. 

Impossible to math out due to captain reroll of 1s, but definitely better than it looks on paper particularly for non successor raven guard as this item allows for rerolling of those annoying 2s to hit, any failed wounds not re-rolled prior by the skull, any damage not re-rolled prior by the skull. So its like a free chapter master upgrade for his use only which also re-rolls damage AND if killed (they likely will be) then the entire army gains a +1 to hit for the remainder of the game against the unit that killed him. Pretty slick. 

 

captain- jump pack, power fist, shield, raven skull- 112 pts.

 

Against T7 a 5 attack Raven guard captain will inflict 4.44 hits and 3.95 wounds.  Damage rerolls will vary based on how many dice were used for rerolls previous but will have 2/3 chance of being better if only re-rolling damage of 1. Not bad considering a stock smash captain clocks in at 143 pts and will inflict 2.59 wounds while costing 31 pts more.

 

Successors could instead be whirlwind of rage + 'other' CT enabling potentially silly numbers of hits/wounds. If taking master artisans as the 'other' then instead of the raven skull this variety might dip into master crafted to smooth the damage results further particularly against 2w units and again would cost nearly 25% less than the typical smash captain. The main difference between the two, to me, is whether you anticipate needing to smooth out the front end or the back of the sequence. That will depend on CT and intended targets.

 

 

 

The other area I've really been focusing on is what I call 'flex' builds, which focus on characters who are designed to change their relic and trait pre-game to suit the match. But thats for another post. 

 

Anyway thats my contribution for the day..

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

That's sort of an apples to oranges argument, imo

 

You can either compare power fists to thunder hammers (stock) or compare one (with a relic) to another (with a relic)

 

So say Raven Skull + Power Fist vs Raven Skull + Thunder Hammer vs Master Crafted + Thunder Hammer vs Master Craft + Power Fist

 

Wounds as a value is also a misnomer as it doesn't take into account the raw damage. With the Raven Skull you will likely use the re-roll on the damage (if Power Fist), but with the Thunder Hammer you can re-roll a Hit or Wound roll. For the sake of math I would just assume both will re-roll the wound roll, as its the least likely to straight fail resulting in zero damage. In practice you would likely use a CP to re-roll a wound roll and then use the Skull to re-roll the Power Fist damage though. (This is a strike against the Skull)

 

Captain Hit Coefficient: .889

 

Captain Wound Coefficient: .667

 

So, Power Fist = 4 x .889 x .667 x 2 = 4.744 DMG

 

Thunder Hammer = 4 x .889 x .667 x 3 = 7.115 DMG

 

PF + Skull = 4 x .889 x .889 x 2 = 6.322 DMG (Assuming re-rolling a Wound Roll) 

 

TH + Skull = 4 x .889 x .889 x 3 = 9.484 DMG

 

PF + MC = 4 x .889 x .667 x 3 = 7.115 DMG

 

TH + MC = 4 x .889 x .667 x 4 = 9.487 DMG

 

As you can each comparison the Thunder Hammer set outperforms the Power Fist by 50% more damage (roughly). This shouldn't be a shock as it literally has a Damage Characteristic of 50% more. The one exception is Master Crafted, which is only a 33% increase.

 

I like where you are going with the numeric assessment though, as you're trying to net value out of the other half of the Skulls ability: Giving your whole army +1 to Hit against the murderer, on a unit that WILL get murdered. The problem with this is that we would like this debuff to go out on a valuable unit. An astute player will likely manage their fire to place the debuff on an expendable unit. While not bad, its always better to keep the choices to ourselves than give them to our opponent. This is of course untrue against opponents that there is no expendable choice (Knights) - just so happens we already have a bunch of good tools against them anyway (like +1 Hit / Wound).

 

I think the other thing to remember is the Smash Captain's purpose: Be a laser guided missile to deleting one unit (namely a Knight) you otherwise cannot deal with. So the question becomes do you continue to strengthen him for that task or weaken him for other tangential benefits? Here's 'ol Smash in action:

 

KEQ - T8 with 24 Wounds

 

Smashy on the charge gets 5 attacks

 

5 x .889 x .5 x .833 x 4 = 7.405 DMG (Fight again  ~15 damage)

 

This doesn't even kill a knight, and a choice re-roll with average rolls only gets you close. However you do bracket it making it significantly less effective. A master crafted Thunder Hammer Captain can do anywhere from 8 to 16 damage in one round of combat, its very hard to predict. Taking a guaranteed (Master Crafted) out of the equation for more variance (re-roll) doesn't help but make it worse. 

 

TL;DR: You need a character to go hunt monsters and other baddies? Sure Skull + a Power FIst can do the job cheaper. If you need to kill KEQ models though, Thunder Hammer + Master Crafted absolutely is the tool for the job.

 

Master Crafted Thunder-Hammer + Champion of Humanity in Tactical Doctrine for our Super Doctrine is THE knight killer (better than even Blood Angels can muster now)

 

Re-rolling charges

2+ to Hit (with Re-rolling 1s)

2+ to Wound

-3 AP (6+ Save)

4 Damage a Blap

 

6 x .972 x .833 x .833 x 4 = 16.187 DMG (Go for round 2 for 32.374 DMG) - This makes the Castellan cry

 

At the end of the day though, YMMV - I think Knights are slowly dipping from the meta, especially in a mono-faction showing. Building a character just for this task is probably less important than it used to be. 

 

TL;DDR: Master Crafting a power fist is the most points-efficient way to get to Thunder Hammer level damage with saving yourself the 21 points. It then becomes a question of is 1CP worth 21 points? Seems unlikely. Unfortunately there aren't other weapons that warrant that volume of attacks/damage to give Master Crafted to.

[Archon_77]

This conversation is AMAZING and I love the outside the box thinking of Brom, and Vyper's analysis of that.  This is the kind of stuff we need to see more of.   To top it off, it's done very respectfully and uses cold hard math to get the point across.  Thanks to BOTH of you :D.  

[Brom MKIV]

I agree with the summary of the PF is the most pts efficient, thats basically my point in a nutshell.. although its actually 31 pts which is significant. 

 

Note that my purpose was not to compare the same relic on both weapons in either case. Obviously the hammer comes out ahead in every comparison so that would be pointless.

 

Instead I wanted to show that trading a cp to buy points so to speak can result in a great alternative to the typical smash captain. 31 pts is definitely enough to prevent access to another detachment which fuels cp to begin with. Therefore its worth exploring. 

 

And lastly since the smash captain IS an expendable missile I would prefer he remain cheap as possible to fulfill that role. I think the fist/skull combo accomplishes that since without the skull the hammers damage is actually less, making it a viable alternatively.. just list dependent. Options are always good.

The hammer/skull combo does exceed the nilla or the fist/skull making it another viable next level type alternative in the ballpark of MC hammer. 

[Bluflash]

For Frater who play using ITC rules, I've been enjoying my Ninja Phobos Captain.

Warlord Phobos Cap with Korvidari Bolts and Echo of the Ravenspire.

 

My list is currently built to deny as many of the ITC Secondaries as possible, and this is the only model on the table worth 4 points as Kingslayer/Slay the Warlord.
He loses no effectiveness by being out of LOS, with a 36" 3D No-Los Rifle. If he gets pressured Echo lets him vanish in a puff of smoke and reappear elsewhere. Also useful if I need him somewhere else for Recon, Linebreaker, on a far objective, Captain buff, or in a closer position to snipe at hiding characters.

It also means my Master of Ambush Jet Pack Cap isn't a warlord, and is worth only two points as Kingslayer. May not be as straight up as killy as other options, but if you're playing objectives there's a lot of value to be had.

[zero88]

I thought attacks are resolved at the same time, meaning the skull would be only good for (effectively) one roll per fight phase?

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I thought attacks are resolved at the same time, meaning the skull would be only good for (effectively) one roll per fight phase?

 

Correct, it only enables one re-roll, including if you choose to fight twice.

 

Also, Power Fist + Skull is less damage than Thunder Hammer straight up.

 

Like you said though, it comes down to points. What is 31 points worth to you?

 

Id argue (almost) that if you don't have a need to kill knights, you don't have a "smash" type HQ at all anyway. There are units that can handle the job adequately (Assault Cents + Aggressors), in the situations where the assault enemy is bringing the fight to you.

[Archon_77]

I'm going to keep my smash capt even if the Meta shifts away from Knights due to the fact that its rapidly switching into a Tank/Dread Iron Hands based list.  He's also great at chasing down tanks with Fly, be they Eldar or Primaris.  He's still also very useful at taking out the bigger Monsters of Chaos and Nids, as well as the Traitor Primarchs with Surgical Strikes.  He's costly, but will nearly always make his points back if aimed properly at the right target.