The implications of Guillimans return for the Imperium.

[roryokane]

 

it was confirmed in the twitch stream yesterday that:

 

Guillimans awakening/Resurrection is done by: Celestine, Eldar, Ynead, and Cawl.

 

Cawl has also been working on a armor specifically for guilliman for 10K years, it has archeotech inside it, + a life support system for guilliman. I suspect the suit is actively working against the toxin/poison blade 

This really really annoys me. I much preferred the whole "he's miraculously healing in the stasis field" thing because it was a genuine glimmer of hope, and having him magicked from the dead rather taints that. Also because him just spontaneously getting out of the stasis field would be worth it just for the reactions of Chapter Command - Calgar, Tigurius, Agemman and Sicarius in particular, though honourable mentions to Ventris, Fennias Maxim (he'd have a stroke/bluescreen error trying to work out how this had happened), Cassius (:cussting himself for creating the Tyrannic War Veterans?), and the others. I can still imagine Telion being utterly chill about it though (cue epic Primarch bro-fist).

Also because you'd end up with a whole heap of Chapter Masters or their deputations from Successors queuing up to declare their allegiance, which would be AWESOME.

Still, I suppose we still get our Primarch back, so I can't grumble too much. :P

[roryokane]

 

From what I've read on the leaked White Dwarf, Guilliman was awakened because Macragge itself was besieged by Chaos (which I found odd, isn't Terra closer to the Eye than Macragge?)

 

Wayyyyyy closer, indeed.

 

However, Fall of Cadia established that the Cadian pylons were not unique, but part of a galaxy-wide network that strengthened the membrane between real space and the Warp.

 

As an analogy, imagine several compounds in a deep wilderness protected by high electrified fences. There are no deliberate gates in the fences, just places where the wire has corroded away to leave a hole, or where trees have fallen and bowed the fence down enough that you can clamber across. Some of these holes in the fence are frankly enormous, too. The people living in the compounds can't repair the fence, so all they can do is station guards at these locations and really heavily fortify the biggest breaches. There are established paths from these gaps in the fence to other compounds elsewhere; they're not safe, but using a cleared path is safer than striking off on your own heading.

 

If you're a bandit lurking in the wilderness and planning to attack one of the compounds, it's possible to cross the fence where no breach exists and no guards have been stationed, but it's difficult and dangerous. First, the fence is electrified and that much more difficult to climb over. You might also be waylaid by hungry predators on your way, for instance, or you might think you can climb a tree and get across only to discover it's rotten inside and collapses when only some of your group has made it inside. That's why, even though they're guarded, bandits usually launched their raids through one of the established breaches in the fence. Since the biggest breaches allow a lot more attackers through, the bandits like to make camp close to those places, making them basically useless to the people inside the compounds as a route out.

 

So, the compounds are systems in real space, the wilderness is the Warp, and the fence is the membrane between the two. Warp transit points are the breaches in the fence, and stable Warp routes are the known paths between compounds. The biggest and most heavily guarded breaches are places like the Maelstrom and the Eye of Terror, of course. The bandits are Chaos traitors and renegades, and the predators are the various creatures of the Warp (daemons and otherwise).

 

The revelation in Fall of Cadia is that the pylons on Cadia were (in this analogy) the last of a number of power generators responsible for electrifying the fences. One generator was enough to keep the whole network energised - but some of Abbadon's previous Black Crusades had been aimed at destroying other pylon installations on other worlds across the galaxy. The Cadian pylons were the last to fall because, being located near the biggest breach of them all, that last generator was naturally the most heavily guarded even though the guards didn't realise its importance.

 

So, no-one in the compounds realised that the strange machines the bandits had set on fire during some of their raids were important, because just as they don't know how to repair the fences they didn't realise the connection between the electrification of the fence and these machines - partially because the power was still on with only one of them running.

 

Now, though, the last generator is gone, and the fence is no longer electrified. The wilderness is still dangerous, but it's a lot easier for the bandits to climb a fence and launch an attack from an unexpected quarter where no guards are stationed.

 

That's what happens at Macragge. The heart of Ultramar was considered safe because there were plenty of fortress worlds and fleets guarding the known routes - but now the pylons are no longer active, it's much easier for Chaos to come from the Warp to real space anywhere they want. They no longer have to rely on existing breaches to get through in force.

 

The Warhammer TV guys, Rob and Eddie, mentioned on the Twitch live stream that it's a Black Legion-led invasion fleet that emerges in the heart of Ultramar and starts wrecking the place. I assume from the article photographs that the Thousand Sons are part of the fleet.

 

I would have thought the recent Bloodborn invasion led by Honsou (if canon - small snippets about it are still being released like Honsou's recent escape aboard a corpse-transport) probably didn't help the stability of the "veil" either.

[Ishagu]

I wonder if Guilliman will command a large unification of Chapters upon return...

[Sete]

Well he established the separation of chapters in first place.

And he led the Ultramarines chapter after the heresy.

He can be the overall campaign leader but I doubt he will make a legion again.

I could see Dorn doing that. But not Guilliman.

[Ishagu]

Maybe, but time has changed and he's a pragmatist.

 

If he needs 300k Astartes he'll get them.

[Captain Idaho]

If we use the real world, GW position into our consideration...

 

Players should be able to build their own Chapters. Logically Guilliman will need a lot of Marines/power at his disposal.

 

Why not both? Chapters around the Imperium as a first responder to problems, Guilliman builds his own force of super power to accompany his campaigns.

 

Likely it is 40K Crusade style forces, with political intrigue bringing forces in and out over time. Maybe the Ultramarines will increase in size as a reinstated Legion?

[Guest]

Well he established the separation of chapters in first place.

And he led the Ultramarines chapter after the heresy.

He can be the overall campaign leader but I doubt he will make a legion again.

I could see Dorn doing that. But not Guilliman.

 

Legions were not a good thing then, after the Heresy. The split was for at the time for the better. 

 

 

If Guilliman makes the Ultramarines a Legion again then all the 1st Founding Loyalist need this. 

[Arkangilos]

I don't understand why there is a need for legions. The Legions splitting was a lot like the real split of the legions during the crisis of the third century. A Primarch doesn't need them to all reform into one legion to do an overall command, just like a general doesn't need all of the regiments to form into one regiment, Caesar didn't need all of the legions he led to become one legion, and the generals didn't need to form the Comitetenses legions of one thousand back into the old legions of six thousand. Reforming legions would literally change nothing.

[Ishagu]

Oh I don't think he'll reform them, but he might require a greater cohesion between a far larger force.

 

Guilliman would be outraged with the wasteful, inefficient Astra Militarum - That's something that could be operated better with less loss of life.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Ishagu

[Urriak Urruk]

Even if he does reform the Legion, there is no way he'll say "Paint all your armor back to Ultramarine blue!"

 

That would literally destroy the majority of chapters that exist, and GW isn't that stupid.

[Celtic_cauldron]

I can hardly think that any Loyalist Primarch will go rogue. Actually I feel they'll all remain loyal but not to the same things even they'll call them "Imperium".

 

Let me explain:

 

Guilliman appears more likely to remain loyal to "Imperium as it was intended" so in a very 30K way. I could imagine guys like Vulkan joining him and supporting this very philosophy. Practically that would mean disbanding the Ecclesiarchy and part of the Inquisition.

 

On the other hand, a Primarch like Dorn being more conservative appears to me more likely to remain loyal to "Imperium as it is" so with all the current agencies.

 

Regarding Russ, Corax, the Khan and the Lion, providing they're not turned crazy or corrupted somehow, their own preferences will depend on how close they feel both with Dorn, Guilliman and the current Imperium. My appreciation is that Russ might join Dorn and become once again the Imperial Executioner and the Khan could also join him due to their common ordeal during the Siege.

 

For Corax, considering the fact he's aginst all form of slavery (Deliverance...) he would be likely to join Guilliman's "Old but New Imperium".

 

My sole hesitation would be with the Lion but I think the fact that Cypher plays a role in GS3 might be of importance in his choice.

 

Anyway, that would result in a partition of the Imperium just like it happened to the Roman Empire IRL.

 

Celtic_Cauldron

[Indefragable]

Oh I don't think he'll reform them, but he might require a greater cohesion between a far larger force.

 

Guilliman would be outraged with the wasteful, inefficient Astra Militarum - That's something that could be operated better with less loss of life.

Do we have any anecdotes about how Guilliman interacted or possibly reformed the Imperial Army/Guard/Navy before his (9,000 year long) nap?

 

I wonder if he would reform them in the exact opposite fashion of the Astartes Chapters, making the IG far more uniform and standardized.

 

 

Hidden Content

The Imperial Guard (still not into the whole "Astra Militaum" thing) is an interesting situation. It is actually a bit of a mistepresentation in many ways, since it suggests that all the regular human forces of the Imperium are one big happy standardized force. In truth, the only common denominator at all is the fact that the Departmento Munitirorum attempts to catalog the different regiments and units around the galaxy. And even that is not complete. I was gonna say "attempts to supply them all" but even that is not close to 100%. That is why it is so staggering to comprehend: there are possibly trillions (with a T) of humans in the galaxy...so any forces mustered in their defense are naturally going to be disparate and greatly varied.

 

For that reason, where it can take a century to communicate with the nearest segmentum command, oftentimes the ONLY course of action Imperial commanders has is to literally throw bodies at the enemy. Shoveling sand against the tide, so to speak. To our modern sensibilities, it seems ridiculous to comprehend Stalingrad-style tactics (like "Enemy at the Gates") ever being feasible, but if you think of it in the context of something like the end scene of "Glory" or even the last battle of "Return of the King," those tactics suddenly take on a sobering nobility. Or so the Commissars keep telling us :)

 

Again, we live in a modern world where the device in your pocket can call someone else literally on the other side of the planet....the ends of the universe for all intents and purposes. Comparatively speaking, in 40k, to get a cup of sugar you would have to send your kids to the other side of town and hope that your grandkids made it in time order to send your great-grandchildren on the return journey so that your great-great-grandchildren make it back with that cup of sugar.

 

And that's assuming the road doesn't eat the minivan along he way :o

 

Not sure how I waxed so philosophical this morning.

 

[Celtic_cauldron]

Guilliman was still alive when the Imperial Army was reformed to become the Imperial Guard.

 

Celtic_Cauldron

[Ishagu]

He reformed it's structure, not the way they do battle.

 

Guilliman and the Ultras value human life.

[Celtic_cauldron]

Actually that's not completely true.

 

By disbanding the Astartes Legions and creating the Imperial Guard, Guilliman put them in frontline while transforming the Astartes into a small shock troop which is unable to sustain a long-term conflict. Therefore is the Guard devoted now not to support Astartes but endure the main bulk of any war of importance.

 

That is a major turn in strategy.

 

Celtic_Cauldron

[Ishagu]

I doubt he issued the orders or wrote down tactics that carelessly throw the lives of millions of men away. The combat doctrines could be changed, not the purpose.

 

I think the IG could conduct war differently. Maybe that means they receive a greater number of Armoured units. Guilliman is the one to see to that, hopefully!

Edited February 8, 2017 by Ishagu

[Demigod]

The Imperial Guard is probably the most clear example ,alongside how commissars and inquisitors function of the dual reputation some aspects of 40k have. Some people read some parts of the IG lore and they conclude the Guard just trows people in the meat grinder, others read different lore and conclude that the Guards function more or less how a standard army would function ( if written by sci-fi writers and not military historians ) when you take into consideration how the universe function.

The galaxy is huge and because of that commanders are given maximum authority so they can properly function ( that is why in so many instances there are multiple commanders/officials with overlapping authority and no one willing to back down ). This means that there will probably extreme examples of nonchalance while trowing away lives but the opposite of the spectrum is just as likely. As Ciaphas said you can be a mean that just executes people right and left but sooner or later you will end up dead from enemy fire no where near the front. And this is true for all officials/commanders.

Human lives are the Emperors currency. They are not to be wasted.

The authority is also the reason why one would reorganize the legions instead of continuing with the chapters. It is not the same to have absolute authority and depending for all decision to have the acceptance of the chapter masters.Also it will be interesting when Dorn,Russ and Lion come back and see that for 10k years most of the new chapters created were Ultramarines.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Demigod

[Captain Idaho]

Regarding Guilliman and the size of a Chapter... it's possible his own personal Crusade will have an increased cap of Ultramarines whilst the first on the scene local Chapters, needed to combat Chaos appearing anywhere, will remain how they are.

 

Everyone is happy.

 

Alternatively, Guilliman will have constant political intrigue with forces ducking in and out of his forces, which is just as fun ;)

 

Either or.

[Arkangilos]

Ishagu, there is literally nothing that can be done to make the Imperial Guard more efficient than giving commanders more agency, and the Imperium cannot do that because they purposely got rid of the agency of commanders to prevent dangerous rebellions.

 

More armored units won't change anything but the cost of the military (yes, they still have a cost, money or not), and the time to raise regiments. In fact, if you read the codices and fluff behind the guard, it makes it clear that the reason the command structure, tithe structure, and and response system are the way they are is because it is the best way to opperate their military with what they need.

 

Let's take one sector as an example. Orks attack one subsector, Eldar attack another, and rebellions happen in another. According to the lore, each planet begins by defending itself. In the meantime they petition sector command for reinforcements. Sector command looks at every petition and war and says, "Ork waagh is more dangerous and larger, it needs more men." The already mustered regiments are sent to that theater (it requires the most aid). They then make an assessment, "do they need more? How many more? What about the other theaters?" Based on those numbers they begin to muster extra regiments, which takes troops away from other worlds and leaves them more vulnerable. After the several month process of mustering more, they ship them out where needed.

 

Now keep in mind, the sectors receives billions of communications, and has to sift through them all just to know what's happening. Then analysts have to figure out what resources are needed, requisition said resources, receive said resources, and ship said resources to where they need to go. And each time paperwork needs to be done, approval needs to be attained, and checks need to be made to ensure the materials aren't going to waste, to Traitors, or to the wrong area. And if you don't think that's realistic, that's pretty accurate to real life (at least in my experience).

 

And that's not not even mentioning making sure you have an available fleet to transport them.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Arkangilos

[Ishagu]

Those are all great points and very true, of course resources aren't infinite.

 

I actually think Guilliman might convince the Mechanicus to start churning out better weapons for them?

 

Supply them with superior technology to bolster their effectiveness. Yes that would take a long time of course.

[Arkangilos]

No. They don't need to. The standard issue gear is cheap, reliable, and works for 95% of the situations, and the situations not covered by that have special weapons and units made specifically to counter what the standard issue gear doesn't.

[Demigod]

Those are all great points and very true, of course resources aren't infinite.

 

I actually think Guilliman might convince the Mechanicus to start churning out better weapons for them?

 

Supply them with superior technology to bolster their effectiveness. Yes that would take a long time of course.

 

The problem with new weapons is that you need to retool factories,retrain soldiers,change tactics and reorganize supply lines. That is also why I think the Mechanicum takes so much time to introduce new technology. It is not just producing a better design,the benefits of this new weapon must outweigh the costs that adapting to this new design would bring. Now this taken to a galactic war level makes things even more complicated.

 

The Imperiums biggest problem is that it can not have at least some time of lower intensity conflict where it could reorganize. Short wars usually lead to technological and other advancements , long unending wars lead only to stagnation or  decline. And the Imperium has been at war for 10k years. 

[Guest Triszin]

Rules wise, what do you think Guilliman will get?

[Guest]

Rules wise, what do you think Guilliman will get?

 

I would think not to far removed from FW?

 

Maybe some funky armour stuff. 

 

There is nothing really to compare him to? I can't say Magnus as he is pumped up on Chaos Juice...

[karden00]

It will be interesting to see what Guilliman thinks of the Tyranids.

I'm sure Chaos will be front and centre, but The Great Devourer will No doubt need some Guillilove