Emperor's Spears covered by A D B

[Taliesin]

Amazon has updates GW listings until the end of July and this book is not included.

Bit disappointed, it looks so interesting.

[cheywood]

Does that mean anything conclusive? I know Amazon has the vast majority of upcoming BL books, but I was under the impression it's not always an exhaustive list.

[Rathamanti]

Amazon has updates GW listings until the end of July and this book is not included.

Bit disappointed, it looks so interesting.

I really hope that doesn´t mean anything!

[R_F_D]

Guys, I don't want to be the party pooper here - but do we even know if A D-B has even finished a first draft?  And even then, there is a big old run in before it even comes out.  Laurie posted an explanation of the process on one of the threads here but for the life of me I can't find it.

 

Edit - found it http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330789-gaunts-ghosts-the-founding-boxset/?p=4653553

Edited October 10, 2017 by R_F_D

[Phoebus]

An advantage with their wargear based around aerial superiority ... for Astartes? ... that is most curious indeed.

 

I hope that advantage is expanded upon even if it turns out to be something mundane. Mainly because Astartes are so used to fighting in close combat for hero reasons as modern day readers we often find ourselves wondering why they don’t just attack from a distance to make combat more efficient with less losses. Much like we do in modern day warfare. It’s all drones and air strikes these days.

The thing about warfare in the Warhammer 40k universe is that, too often, it feels driven by a need to service toys and by authors who don't really want to explore how a balance between heroic combat and the technology of their setting can be made possible. With that in mind, I'm interested in seeing what direction A D-B will take with this, as it might be far less curious than a breath of fresh air.

 

Where the Adeptus Astartes (since this is about the Emperor's Spears Chapter) are concerned, the narrative - in Codices and Imperial Armour books alike - is that as time grinds on the Space Marines are forced to rely on ever-smaller forces: the Legiones Astartes once made war in their thousands and even tens of thousands aboard might Stormbirds, but now it's a matter of Demi-Companies and Stormraven gunships. What hasn't changed, however, is the mission itself: Space Marines are meant to be an elite force that is first and foremost meant to engage in shock assaults following rapid deployments. As the universe conspires to spread their numbers ever thinner, the objective a Space Marine force will be tasked with will be ever-more narrow and ever-more important. Everything else in their arsenal is meant to facilitate them conquering those objectives.

 

That very specific mission set is what necessitates "heroic combat." What makes it possible is the technology of the setting. A battle-barge exists to ruin orbital defenses and soak up damage from orbit. While sitting there, it's job is to break down the shields over the Space Marines' objective, and to create a window in which they can operate: bombardment cannon, torpedoes, and weapons batteries being used to annihilate such spaceports, airfields, and transport hubs that can bring to bear the enemy's forces against the shock force launching toward the planet. That's what should make it possible for a handful (or dozens; the lore is inconsistent) of Thunderhawks, Storm Eagles, Stormravens, etc., to succeed in their own assaults, as otherwise their numbers aren't capable of commanding an entire planetary atmosphere.

 

All that creates the opportunity for a surgical strike force to attack a critical point of interest. The physiology of the Space Marine and the Power Armour he wears makes him very survivable. It allows him and his battle-brothers to survive the conditions needed to get them in close proximity of something (or someone) that really needs to be destroyed, where normal men would perish before the first shot was fired. Those same factors allow them to close into close combat - something that would be suicidal for unaugmented soldiers. As quick and efficient as shooting someone is, anyone with military experience will tell you how a chokepoint with sufficient firepower can stall an attack. In that situation, being able to run as fast as a cheetah, leap ridiculous distances, shrug off most forms of guns, and tear most forms of opposition apart in hand-to-hand combat can change the course of a battle.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Phoebus

[Ascanius]

I would add that the Imperium does not have the same attitude towards warfare as the "first world" nations that exist now, at the dawn of M3. Without veering into political territory, one of the reasons that contemporary nations rely on drone strikes and intercontinental ballistic missiles is that political and cultural reasons militate against putting citizens in harm's way.

 

There are many readily available examples of elected officials promising that this or that military intervention will not mean "boots on the ground," but instead only air strikes, for instance - regardless of whether or not such restricted tactics will contribute to the stated goal of the exercise itself.

 

The Imperium is very different. It is an imperialistic power (natch) with the explicit goal of nothing less than complete and total dominance of the galaxy. Any territory it cannot take and hold for itself, it actively wishes to destroy so that no enemy can find purchase there. You can't hold territory without boots on the ground of one kind or another.

 

The Imperium is also invested in its own martial myths of the indomitable Space Marines and the unstoppable tide of its armies, so there's a propaganda value in sending troops in to physically stand on conquered ground.

 

Finally, the Imperium doesn't value the lives of its citizens individually, and in fact valorises the sacrifice of "martyrs" who die in its service. There's absolutely no political or cultural considerations that would recommend long-range strikes over sending troops in - quite the opposite.

 

I just recently read Chris Wraight's novel Wrath of Iron, in which an Imperial Guard commander is horrified by the way an Iron Hands captain is willing to throw away the lives of mortal troops in huge numbers as a diversionary tactic, especially when there are other stratagems available. Ultimately, however, as the novel proves, such considerations are not supported by Imperial doctrine or dogma.

 

If you're sitting there reading this and thinking, "That's terrible," well, yeah. That's the Imperium for you. Sometimes, as in Wrath of Iron, it turns out to be justified - but the fact that it's sometimes the right course of action doesn't actually have any bearing on whether or not the Imperium considers it the proper way of war.

[Rathamanti]

I am sorry, if this is too off topic!

 

As I wrote on my Wip-log, I took the liberty to update the warhammer40k.wikia.com-entry for the spears. It would be great if somebody would have a look and make changes as fitting and correct my English - and basically make it a fitting entry for a wiki, something I have no experience with. I don´t know how to edit Lexicanum-entries.

Here it is: http://warhammer40k....mperor's_Spears

 

Also, please tell me, if it´s a bad idea!

 

Am I correct in writing, that the Spears badge is a trident, not a trident with a skull on it as previously shown on the wiki?

Edited October 11, 2017 by Rathamanti

[Taliesin]

Does that mean anything conclusive? I know Amazon has the vast majority of upcoming BL books, but I was under the impression it's not always an exhaustive list.

 

It is not necessarily exhaustive, there can be later additions. As far as we know this book is still being written, but I will note that Black Legion was already given an August 2017 release date this time last year, and that book was still incomplete at the time as well.

[cheywood]

 

 

Does that mean anything conclusive? I know Amazon has the vast majority of upcoming BL books, but I was under the impression it's not always an exhaustive list.

It is not necessarily exhaustive, there can be later additions. As far as we know this book is still being written, but I will note that Black Legion was already given an August 2017 release date this time last year, and that book was still incomplete at the time as well.

Based on the list published in Upcoming BL Stuff I think we're gonna see a lot of fiction added. Only nine new novels in the list, with five of those due for release by the end of January, would be an incredibly spartan release schedule for BL. Of course that doesn't guarantee the Emperor's Spears will be added, though I hope it will. Edited October 11, 2017 by cheywood

[depthcharge12]

If he decides on going the Greek/Roman route...you have to name one of the battle brothers Salamis! :D

[b1soul]

@Phoebus

 

"don't really want to explore how a balance between heroic combat and the technology of their setting can be made possible"

 

Honestly, a bolter is a far superior weapon relative to a power sword...but 40K has a massive woody for melee combat

 

You wonder why Primarchs don't carry around Primarch-scale lascannons or volkites (or massively powerful DAoT guns) to end other Primarchs. Instead, they insist on hacking at each other's armour with blades

[bluntblade]

Because up close is personal. Same reason lightsaber duels are a thing.

 

It's all rule of drama. There's much more physicality to close quarters, and as such there's inherently more emotion.

[Phoebus]

@Phoebus

"don't really want to explore how a balance between heroic combat and the technology of their setting can be made possible"

Honestly, a bolter is a far superior weapon relative to a power sword...but 40K has a massive woody for melee combat

I know that game terms shouldn’t directly translate to drama, but I beg to differ where that specific comparison is concerned. Even if we ignored crunchy stuff like the fact that a power weapon ignores power armour saves (whereas a power armour save can negate a bolt gun), we have plenty of examples of power swords cleaving through power armour plate versus bolter-armed Space Marines having to aim for the soft armour around joints, eye-pieces, and so on.

 

Really, when you get down to it, we went away from body armor in real life because gunpowder weapons outstripped its ability to protect the wearer from them. In M31 and M41, it’s the opposite: the best body armor are able to withstand most common ranged weapons.

 

You wonder why Primarchs don't carry around Primarch-scale lascannons or volkites (or massively powerful DAoT guns) to end other Primarchs. Instead, they insist on hacking at each other's armour with blades

Pure conjecture on my part, but besides dramatic license you could consider that virtually every Space Marine, warship, gunship, tank, etc., is the Primarch’s “ranged weapon.” A Primarch enters combat when he most feels like it, and is generally able to use the greatest of technology to arrive at the fulcrum of the fight.

[b1soul]

Yeah...but bolters are like the baseline of Astartes ranged weapons

 

Power armour is nigh useless against plasma guns, meltas, las cannons, even heavy bolters

 

EDIT:

... and I also mean to say, I think standard bolters beat power blades at any range beyond ten metres

Edited October 13, 2017 by b1soul

[Phoebus]

Well, of course bolters possess superior range. The real issue at hand, though, is that prior to the Horus Heresy and for most of the ten thousand years since, the Adeptus Astartes aren’t usually facing other Space Marines with bolters. Their power armour can withstand most firearms they face. Plasma guns, melta weapons, and lascannons constitute the exception, not the rule.

[b1soul]

Right...don't disagree that SM were initially purposed to smash non-SM opponents.

 

Also, just to be clear...I agree that power blades have an easier time slicing through armour, I just think bolters' range more than makes up for that. Bolters are actually very effective against power armour when the shooter is well-trained, as SM all are.

 

Bolters, in my view, are therefore the generally more effective weapon against power armour than blades are.

 

Speaking of SM vs. SM combat (which became common during and after the HH), I do think melee combat is rather over-represented

 

In-universe, this might be due to Astartes emphasis on personal combat prowess.

 

Outside the universe, I think it is due to melee battles being cool to read about. Astartes combat is often written in a Homeric style...with champions exchanging mighty blows and deciding the tide of battle a la The Iliad. It makes for great reading.

Edited October 13, 2017 by b1soul

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Let's get back on topic people.

 

JKC

[Chiwie]

 

That's a hell of a teaser. 

[Rathamanti]

 

That's a hell of a teaser.

 

Yes, I love that title. Very evocative and nasty!

[Felix Antipodes]

I'm wondering if Nisk is still running the Mentors or if that quote is just an attribution.

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

Loving the Mentors inclusion even if it's just a quote 

[b1soul]

one of the reasons that contemporary nations rely on drone strikes and intercontinental ballistic missiles is that political and cultural reasons militate against putting citizens in harm's way.

Modern nations have not experienced "total war" in a while. Last time they did, two atom bombs were specifically dropped on civilian population centres.

[Chiwie]

Loving the Mentors inclusion even if it's just a quote 

I think the 'outsider' perspective is going to be provided by a Mentor legion marine doing a fact finding mission with the spears. I could be way off base though.

[Felix Antipodes]

Posted by ABD tonight on Facebook:

 

 

Looking forward to this soooo much...

Edited November 14, 2017 by Felix Antipodes

[Sete]

Should be interesting.